Remove/recreate purple caves

[JayboH]

There is also a disconnect from some thinking designer and designer tools are all that is involved.  Creating the actual map content from nothing is what I was leaning towards and not just design.  I am not talking about piecing rooms together.  I mean actual polygon and texture creation, not what a designer typically does.  I am not talking about making maps out of already-constructed art assets.

[Redlynne]

13 minutes ago, JayboH said:

I mean actual polygon and texture creation, not what a designer typically does.

That doesn't get done in zero time either ...

[JayboH]

2 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

That doesn't get done in zero time either ...

That's why I stressed that you can expect to get zero new content with the same arguments used against any and all changes to the blue/purple caves

[EmmySky]

58 minutes ago, JayboH said:

There is also a disconnect from some thinking designer and designer tools are all that is involved.  Creating the actual map content from nothing is what I was leaning towards and not just design.  I am not talking about piecing rooms together.  I mean actual polygon and texture creation, not what a designer typically does.  I am not talking about making maps out of already-constructed art assets.

That's why I suggested just a texture swap.  I have done quite a but of 3d model building and it would be a very lengthy process.  Just creating a new texture to swap with the purple one would be much less work and probably fix 90% of the problem.

[JayboH]

1 minute ago, EmmySky said:

That's why I suggested just a texture swap.  I have done quite a but of 3d model building and it would be a very lengthy process.  Just creating a new texture to swap with the purple one would be much less work and probably fix 90% of the problem.

Ehh several of us including me believe they are a bit too claustrophobic; there are other caves that offer better breathing room and thus mob placement/density is also better.  Think of an 8 man Mastermind team in those blue/purple caves...

[EmmySky]

11 minutes ago, JayboH said:

Ehh several of us including me believe they are a bit too claustrophobic; there are other caves that offer better breathing room and thus mob placement/density is also better.  Think of an 8 man Mastermind team in those blue/purple caves...

Like I said...90% of the problem lol

 

It would be awesome if they were traded for the wide hollows style caves but the game code is so spaghetti I dunno if they could cross code that without breaking something like dominator epics.  Itd be awesome if all the freaking torches didnt stick out and grab me.  But when you delve into 3d modeling its time consuming and you gotta have the knowledge behind it, plus how to wedge it into the code without making PB squids look like sailboats.  The code is really borked!

 

I once built a 3d world that was a hamster cage you could walk through with an avatar representing average human size.  Took me months and months and months hand coding, no program to shortcut the process, and it was still what this game would consider a very small and simple asset. 

 

I dont know what code this game uses but I know everyone who has looked at it says it is very scrambled with little or no documentation.  Any major builds or reworks are likely to be very far down the line as right now they are still working on cleaning up the code.  Its good to dream, I dream of spacious caves, but I aint holding my breath lol

[Redlynne]

29 minutes ago, JayboH said:

several of us including me believe they are a bit too claustrophobic

Close Quarters Battle requires different tactics and strategy than Open Field Battle.  The fact that the close quarters "cramped spaces" environments to fight in is something that everyone needs to LEARN how to deal with ... even the snipers who would rather be a mile away from the action.

 

It's that VARIETY of terrain and environments that prevents any one single build plan from "winning" over everything in all situations and circumstances.  You can build a long range character, but still need to deal with tight confined spaces where long range is irrelevant ... just like how you can use Superspeed as your travel power pretty freely almost everywhere except the Shadow Shard and Grandeville due to environmental features.

 

Yes the spaces are cramped and claustrophobic ... and that's a GOOD THING(!) ... because how you maneuver to fight in there, and how you move, is DIFFERENT than in more "open" settings and locations.  That difference is important and shouldn't be sacrificed upon the altar of convenience.

[JayboH]

45 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

requires different tactics ~ everyone needs

 

Not really

[ImpousVileTerror]

I'm not advocating the removal of the cramped caves (as usual, I advocate for improved options and quality of life), but I do feel it's important to say that claustrophobia is a real condition with potentially serious impact on people, and even virtual spaces can trigger claustrophobic responses in individuals with a high level of attachment or empathy for their digital characters.

It's not necessarily an issue of convenience.  It's also a matter of accessibility, comfort, and well-being.

 

So, in a perfect world, having the power to decline the cramped maps with greater usability than just "abandon or auto-complete the mission" would be fantastic.  I encourage folks to examine the possibilities and brainstorm ideas.
In the absence of the developmental resources to effectively offer that option, however, we would probably do well to acknowledge that the content is problematic for some players, and pursue a more relaxed approach about "defending" the existence of the tunnels.  I would be shocked if the Homecoming Team Devs would actually remove the tunnels without overwhelming support for the idea anyway.  

[Redlynne]

18 minutes ago, ImpousVileTerror said:

we would probably do well to acknowledge that the content is problematic for some players

I'll readily acknowledge that the blue/purple caves are more challenging for some Players than others, and that they're really good environmental camouflage for all sorts of things (like where the tunnel is).  But I see that as a challenge to be overcome, not something to be done away with as an inconvenience or an annoyance.

 

Not everyone is going to build their lair in Sinclair Mansion.

[JayboH]

...and not everyone finds them as a challenge and rather sees them as an annoyance not worthy of even misplaced nostalgic preservation efforts

[SwitchFade]

Thankfully, many of us like them.

[Oginth]

I have to admit, after 30 levels, I'm kinda got used with purple caves. There are only a few layouts, of those hard to find tunnels, I kinda know where to find it now.

[gameboy1234]

4 hours ago, JayboH said:

...and not everyone finds them as a challenge and rather sees them as an annoyance not worthy of even misplaced nostalgic preservation efforts

Yes, I don't like to dis the original art team because I'm sure all of the problems are related to not enough time or resources, but poor design is not a "challenge", it's just poor design.  It's like a bad UI or controls that are hard to manipulate.  There's nothing challenging about it, it just works poorly, full stop.

 

People have gotten inured to some of the poor design in those caves and other places, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't think about fixing them.

 

Edited June 24, 2020 by gameboy1234

[JayboH]

2 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Thankfully, many of us like them.

Thankfully, many of us don't.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

6 hours ago, JayboH said:

Thankfully, many of us don't.

You have yet to provide a valid reason why content mastery based challenge should be removed imo. Any content that the meta is to memorize lay out, spawn locations, etc qualifies as this form of gaming challenge. How many times did you have to play that map before it was just a minor annoyance? Maybe you have a photographic memory and took just one time, but most it took no few to master that room. That is valid game design, one that yes annoys some gamers who do not like having to learn, and find the inherent speed bump such design represents to mass murder clear speed an intolerable thing to ever encounter most typically.

[JayboH]

3 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

You have yet to provide a valid reason

I'm not sure if you've read the thread, as the main two people that are opposed to the idea of any changes or improvements didn't explain anything when questioned either - also the title mentions the word 'recreate' and I've only referenced removal in the form of radio rotation

[SwitchFade]

10 hours ago, JayboH said:

Thankfully, many of us don't.

Without data, that's just speculation 😋

Edited June 24, 2020 by SwitchFade

[Redlynne]

15 hours ago, Oginth said:

I have to admit, after 30 levels, I'm kinda got used with purple caves. There are only a few layouts, of those hard to find tunnels, I kinda know where to find it now.

I take this as proof that it's possible for Players to learn the maps.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

12 hours ago, JayboH said:

I'm not sure if you've read the thread, as the main two people that are opposed to the idea of any changes or improvements didn't explain anything when questioned either - also the title mentions the word 'recreate' and I've only referenced removal in the form of radio rotation

Seeing as Ive posted previously and made my reasons clear in the very post you snipped a line from to quote, methinks its not me not reading others posts. Call it an annoyance all you want, it does not change the very real fact it counts as challenge in the form of content mastery, which is very valid game design. That alone is enough to justify it being left as is rather than letting that challenge be perma beaten here on the forums by dumbing it down or removing it out right.

[JayboH]

On 6/23/2020 at 10:31 PM, SwitchFade said:

Thankfully, many of us like them.

↓

11 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Without data, that's just speculation 😋

Heh.

 

4 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Seeing as Ive posted previously and made my reasons clear in the very post you snipped a line from to quote, methinks its not me not reading others posts. Call it an annoyance all you want, it does not change the very real fact it counts as challenge in the form of content mastery, which is very valid game design. That alone is enough to justify it being left as is rather than letting that challenge be perma beaten here on the forums by dumbing it down or removing it out right.

I have read them all, and improvement/recreation should be completely fine and encouraged.  Removal as I've clarified many times is from radio rotation ideally.

[Monos King]

I think we should make a 4th expansion called City of Caves where you're hooked on Superadine and you hallucinate every map to be one of four caves.

[JayboH]

14 minutes ago, Monos King said:

I think we should make a 4th expansion called City of Caves where you're hooked on Superadine and you hallucinate every map to be one of four caves.

No wonder the Trolls are so angry

[Oginth]

18 minutes ago, Monos King said:

I think we should make a 4th expansion called City of Caves where you're hooked on Superadine and you hallucinate every map to be one of four caves.

More Troll Raves!

[SwitchFade]

8 hours ago, JayboH said:

↓

Heh.

 

I have read them all, and improvement/recreation should be completely fine and encouraged.  Removal as I've clarified many times is from radio rotation ideally.

Heh. I see humor is lost on some. I'll use a few dozen silly faces and a (sarcastic joke) disclaimer next time.