Weekly Discussion 56: Traps

[Redlynne]

8 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

23 hours ago, Redlynne said:

T8 Trip Mine

• Remove Interrupt Time from power.
• Disable Interrupt Time enhancement slotting.
• Change power Activation time from 5 seconds to 0 seconds(!) following the precedent of Hail of Bullets (Dual Pistols).
• Trip Mines are "summoned" in zero time and manifest at the feet of the caster, but take 5 seconds to arm themselves(!) before they can activate for self-destruction.
• Casting Trip Mines does not Immobilize the caster.  The Trip Mine is simply "dropped" in place at the caster's location and begins to arm itself automatically.
• Crouching animation for Trip Mines deployment is removed.  The summoned Trip Mine however retains its activation animation to indicate when it is ready to attack.

I can already say that this won't happen if it keeps the current slotting capabilities it has; specifically Knockback and the ability to slot FF+Rech proc. It'd be far too easy to spam for absolutely no other reason than to proc-check for 100% bump every five seconds. And yes, I would absolutely do it. In fact I did do it, just to see, and as it currently resides in the game I can sit there and spam Trip Mine at 5/s intervals and end up with just a bit over 40 Trip Mines in one pile. Unfortunately (or I guess fortunately for the Devs) the psuedo pet that gets dropped doesn't carry over damage procs so my dreams of decking an AV for 15,000 damage isn't going to happen. C'est la vie.

 

So there's a thing that you can do with Trip Mines ... IN GAME ... RIGHT NOW ... and you already HAVE DONE IT ... so it's already an existing feature of how the power works and how the power can be slotted ...

 

/em significant look

 

... because that already exists and can be done and you've already done it ... you're saying that any changes to Trip Mines that DO NOT remove the capability that already exists and that you've already exploited and would continue to exploit after any changes(!!) means that the proposed changes cannot be accepted because the proposed changes do not PREVENT this already existing feature from being exploited by you if the proposed changes are made.

 

/em next significant look

 

So what you're demanding is that Knockback enhancement slotting be removed from Trip Mines in order to prevent the exploit that you've found, have used, and will continue to use, so long as the exploit exists.

 

To be extremely specific, you want to ensure that the Force Feedback proc can't be slotted into Trip Mines ... and you're trying to say that the changes I've proposed (and I quote) ... "won't happen if it keeps the current slotting capabilities" ... (unquote) due to an exploit that has nothing to do with the changes I'm proposing.

 

 

 

@Sir Myshkin it would have been more honest of you to say that in your opinion Knockback enhancement (and sets) need to be disabled on Trip Mines so as to prevent the "clever use of game mechanics" that you've found, have used, and will continue to use until it is removed from the game.

9 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

And yes, I would absolutely do it. In fact I did do it, just to see, and as it currently resides in the game I can sit there and spam Trip Mine at 5/s intervals and end up with just a bit over 40 Trip Mines in one pile.

That's a separate issue(!) from the changes I was proposing ... and you know it.

[Peacemoon]

16 hours ago, Papaduval said:

There are lots of good ideas on this topic, but i'd like to look at the damage levels of the Defender version, as compared to the controller version

 

I've attached screen shots of the tooltip for the Defender at lvl 45 (Primary powerset) and the Controller at lvl 43 (Secondary powerset)

As you can see - the controller version does significantly more damage - and is actually about what i'd expect trip mine to be doing - its fun at this level of damage, and worth setting up trap locations to instant kill mobs when summoned (wormhole, teleport foe, etc)

The defender version however, is significantly sub-par. It absolutely needs some serious buffing. Unless this is Working as intended - if so, its seriously messed up for a primary to do massively less damage than a secondary.  (not sure how much damage the Mastermind trip mine does)

Overall, I enjoy the traps set, though trip mine on defenders needs tweaking, the interrupt times are just horrible and make the power unusable in groups. Time bomb needs totally revamping, or just removing. I never select it anymore, its just too much of a pain to use.

Web grenade also is one to skip - the rest i go for.

 

EDIT: The two trip mines on the controller and defender were 5 slotted with the same OBliteration set (attuned)

I don’t know why the numbers are inferior for Defenders. The Defender version should be doing more damage than the controller version. It might be worth submitting this as a bug as it wouldn’t be an intended balance decision.

 

Speaking of damage, my biggest gripe with Traps is that Trip Mine and Time Bomb both focus too much on damage. Traps is a support set. Damage is useful of course (see Lightning Storm) and valid for trips and bombs, but I am always surprised that they don’t do more in the way of debuffs. It feels like they were ported over from /Devices without a lot of thought, and Devices and Traps ought to be 2 very different t sets.

 

Another reason is Traps was originally a villainous set for Corruptors and Masterminds, I think? Which might explain the unusual focus on dealing damage.

[ScarySai]

If I can have absolutely nothing else, then my one pick to improve the set would be to give Trip mine the same buffs devices got.

 

Traps is my absolute favorite secondary for masterminds, this change would make it a lot better for the other ATs, too.

Edited June 26, 2020 by ScarySai

[Tater Todd]

• I would love to see Caltrops and Web Grenade switch places and while were on the topic of Web Grenade...
• Like in Devices turns Web Grenade into Toxic Web Grenade
• As other have mentioned I would love to see Triage Beacon become mobile. Making Triage mobile will pretty much make it behave like Soothing Aura does in PvP.  I think the mobile version should be buffed and capped at 1 triage beacon only.
• I too am for a pet version of Acid Mortar following you around.  It would be pretty much like a Rad Emissions toon using 2 of their toggles or like running around casting Sleet.
• I would be fine with Force Field Generator staying as is but I would gladly welcomes improvements if you guys decided to go that route.
• I'm fine with Poison Trap as is but again, I would gladly welcome improvements.
• Like what Red said I would love to see Seeker Drones with KU
• Give Trip Mine the Devices treatment
• Give Time Bomb the Devices treatment

[ShardWarrior]

On 6/21/2020 at 2:17 PM, MTeague said:

I would change Triage Beacon, to be Triage DRONE, and have it follow you. 

Other than that, I would not change anything.

See now, this is a great idea.  Would be slick if they could port the medical drone model from the base editor over for it too.

[drbuzzard]

4 hours ago, Tater Todd said:

• Give Trip Mine the Devices treatment
• Give Time Bomb the Devices treatment

I'm curious what you mean by this. I don't notice much difference (other than damage of course) between trip mine on my dev blaster and my traps defender.

[Peacemoon]

1 hour ago, drbuzzard said:

I'm curious what you mean by this. I don't notice much difference (other than damage of course) between trip mine on my dev blaster and my traps defender.

I don’t have a quote but I think it was made uninterruptible?

[drbuzzard]

Nope, I'm pretty sure trip mine can be interrupted. Mind you I've not tried it in a likely time to be interrupted recently because I know better. Perhaps it has changed. I'll have to check.

[drbuzzard]

31 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

Nope, I'm pretty sure trip mine can be interrupted. Mind you I've not tried it in a likely time to be interrupted recently because I know better. Perhaps it has changed. I'll have to check.

OK, that is amusing. I was wrong. I had not tried it under threat in so long I didn't even know it was possible now. I was able to finish planting a trip mine on my BR/Dev blaster while being beaten on by legionaries.

Edited June 26, 2020 by drbuzzard

[Peacemoon]

18 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

OK, that is amusing. I was wrong. I had not tried it under threat in so long I didn't even know it was possible now. I was able to finish planing a trip mine on my BR/Dev blaster while being beaten on by legionaries.

There will be something in the latest page patch notes about it. Sorry my interest in traps is from a more general interest of Defenders and Controllers, not super familiar with the set itself, or Devices.

[Tater Todd]

The change happened during the same time Dominators got some love so of course I knew about it since I'm absolutely obsessed with Dominators lol.
 

 

Powers: Devices

• Changed Web Grenade to Toxic Web Grenade, now deals scale 1 toxic DoT and can be slotted for damage
• Taser: Recharge reduced from 20 to 10 seconds, duration reduced from scale 10 to scale 5, damage increased from 0.25 to 1.96 (same damage as Energy Punch)
• Time Bomb:  Animation is now 2.77 seconds, interrupt time removed, countdown reduced to 5 seconds, defiance values reduced to match (this only applies to this set, not to the Traps support set versions.)
• Trip Mine:  Interrupt removed. Cast time is now 2.77 seconds. Recharge increased to 30 seconds.
• Targeting Drone now gives your first attack from out of combat a Built-Up effect (80% damage) and continues to provide a 20% damage buff while in combat.

Edited June 27, 2020 by Tater Todd

[Sir Myshkin]

15 hours ago, Redlynne said:

To be extremely specific, you want to ensure that the Force Feedback proc can't be slotted into Trip Mines ... and you're trying to say that the changes I've proposed (and I quote) ... "won't happen if it keeps the current slotting capabilities" ... (unquote) due to an exploit that has nothing to do with the changes I'm proposing.

Alright, hold up and take a minute to reflect on what you suggested:

15 hours ago, Redlynne said:

• Trip Mines are "summoned" in zero time and manifest at the feet of the caster, but take 5 seconds to arm themselves(!) before they can activate for self-destruction.
• Casting Trip Mines does not Immobilize the caster.  The Trip Mine is simply "dropped" in place at the caster's location and begins to arm itself automatically.
• Crouching animation for Trip Mines deployment is removed.  The summoned Trip Mine however retains its activation animation to indicate when it is ready to attack.

• No delay.
• No Immobilize.
• No animation.

Your suggestion, based on what I'm saying is currently capable with the ability, is to create a power that does this:

• Trip Mine: End Cost - 13, Recharge - 5/s, Grant Player 100% Global Recharge for 5/s, Does not root the player upon cast and has no animation time or delay to the player.

To simplify: "Put this on auto for 100% global recharge indefinitely"

 

No, that won't fly, that is why I brought it up. I wasn't saying I disagreed with your idea from a utility aspect, but the ability cannot retain its ability to slot a FF+Rech proc. No there is not a flaw in the proc, the power itself as it exists in the game follows all of the expected PPM regulations. It has a base 20/s cool down and a 5.148/s animation (arcana) with 4/s of that being interruptible, and if I choose not to enhance its recharge, and have a high enough source in the build to get it close to 7-8/s, the proc will have a high probability to fire off. It doesn't every time, no, but enough that I can assuredly stack 40 of the potential 50 maximum. This is something I disclosed months ago, nearly a year at this point in September of last.

 

The reason why this is okay in the current design is because the player is rooted for that entire duration, and can be interrupted in the process of setting the mine. We are forced into a period of inactivity to take advantage of the ability. And as such, there is nothing of significant impact in the Traps power set that vastly improves from this mechanic other than casually executing in down time, or to help ramp up Acid Mortar or Poison Trap for another spawn, but in most cases the recharges on those abilities are already so significantly reduced that the additional 100% is only shaving seconds of time. There is no practical value that abusing this effect grants to any combination of a Traps user as it exists because of the restrictions it enforces on the player, and the risks it comes with. This is not an exploit as you wanted to call it, but is working as intended.

 

In a best case scenario, the advantage of setting up a few traps like this allows a Traps user to set up a slightly more unique or amusing "Trap Cluster" (for lack of a better term), but the time cost to do so is incredibly large. Just 60/s of this process only shaves 6-8/s off a typical Acid Mortar slotting with already decent global recharge, and brings Poison Trap down into a proximity that a player could manage to get a second one out just in time to have 30/s of double-stacked Mortars. The entire effort requires the Traps user to constantly be spamming and rooted for Trip Mine. It is INCREDIBLY impractical in any scenario other than for fun, or solo play.

 

Given all of that, I return to what your suggestion was, again:

• No delay.
• No Immobilize.
• No animation.

If the interrupt and animation/rooting were removed, just flat out no rebuttal or correction, removed, then Trip Mine becomes an at-will constant-flex trigger for FF+Rech. Now at that point we'd drop to 20/s over 25.148 which will drop the probability enough that it'll reduce somewhere around a... 55-60% chance, still good, and oh yeah totally worth the constant free click. In such a state the power is a direct and dramatic abuse of the game mechanics, and thus a design flaw if allowed to pass in that condition. Regardless of what benefit might be gained or lacking in relation to Traps as a whole or any set it gets paired with, the core concept of such a change is against the mass majority of the game's function and creates the potential for a loop hole that could be abused specific to Traps in its performance, and have negative impact on the validity of any other change that gets implemented with it.

 

That is what one would call an "exploit" if it managed to pass into active play unnoticed.

 

16 hours ago, Redlynne said:

it would have been more honest of you to say that in your opinion Knockback enhancement (and sets) need to be disabled on Trip Mines so as to prevent the "clever use of game mechanics" that you've found, have used, and will continue to use until it is removed from the game.

How was my statement disingenuous in any form? I stated clearly: "I can already say that this won't happen if it keeps the current slotting capabilities it has; specifically Knockback and the ability to slot FF+Rech proc." Quite clear and to the point that such an alteration won't occur if the ability retains its access to the FF+Rech proc. It isn't a concern of "clever game mechanics" as you like to call it, it is a concern of an abusable trigger that would become available, and I called it out.

 

Furthermore, it was "discovered" and openly posted on these forums that it was possible, and even back then my opinion on the use of it was the same "Not Worth It." The clear and straight forward intentions of those test discoveries were to find interactions like this one and better understand the dynamic of what procs were and could do for everyone.

 

Next time please refrain from so aggressively jumping the Acid Mortar. 👍

 

 

[Peacemoon]

10 hours ago, Tater Todd said:

The changed happened during the same time Dominators got some love so of course I knew about it since I'm absolutely obsessed with Dominators lol.
 

 

Powers: Devices

• Changed Web Grenade to Toxic Web Grenade, now deals scale 1 toxic DoT and can be slotted for damage
• Taser: Recharge reduced from 20 to 10 seconds, duration reduced from scale 10 to scale 5, damage increased from 0.25 to 1.96 (same damage as Energy Punch)
• Time Bomb:  Animation is now 2.77 seconds, interrupt time removed, countdown reduced to 5 seconds, defiance values reduced to match (this only applies to this set, not to the Traps support set versions.)
• Trip Mine:  Interrupt removed. Cast time is now 2.77 seconds. Recharge increased to 30 seconds.
• Targeting Drone now gives your first attack from out of combat a Built-Up effect (80% damage) and continues to provide a 20% damage buff while in combat.

I think sums up the problem with traps for me, especially for Defenders.

 

An AR/Devices Blaster vs a AR/Traps Defender I think I’d have more fun with the Blaster, and I usually prefer Defenders. Targeting Done and Field Operative might be less impactful to a team, but Force Field Generator and Mortor just seem like such a faff in comparison. The numbers might be good the gameplay feels awkward. I will give both a try sometime and see for real though.

[Redlynne]

7 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

• No delay.
• No Immobilize.
• No animation.

Your suggestion, based on what I'm saying is currently capable with the ability, is to create a power that does this:

+0% Recharge enhancement for 5s and 0s animation times:

83.33% chance to proc = 2 * ((20 / ( 1 + 0.00 / 100 )) + 5) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 0 * (11 * 0 + 540) / 30,000)))

66.67% chance to proc = 2 * ((20 / ( 1 + 0.00 / 100 )) + 0) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 0 * (11 * 0 + 540) / 30,000)))

 

So an 83.33% proc chance with a 5s animation and a 66.67% proc chance with a 0s animation.

That's a difference of rolling 1-5 on 1d6 and rolling 1-4 on 1d6 ... which I personally would consider a somewhat significant hit to proc reliability.  Does it reduce the proc chance to something as low as 50%?  No ... but then you'd need to reduce the base recharge (or slot recharge into the power) in order to do that.

 

20s Base Recharge with +33.33% Recharge enhancement:

50.00% chance to proc = 2 * ((20 / ( 1 + 33.33 / 100 )) + 0) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 0 * (11 * 0 + 540) / 30,000)))

 

15s Base Recharge with +0% Recharge enhancement:

50% chance to proc = 2 * ((15 / ( 1 + 0.00 / 100 )) + 0) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 0 * (11 * 0 + 540) / 30,000)))

 

So the obvious answer to the point you've raised is to either prevent Knockback slotting in Traps Trip Mines ... or ... to take the proposal I made and reduce the base recharge time on Traps Trip Mines to be 15s instead of the 30s that Devices Trip Mines are currently set for (as @Tater Todd so kindly provided above).  If the objective is to keep Traps Trip Mines from being Too Reliable a way to proc a Force Feedback proc, then working to lower the maximum proc chance to 50% or below ought to be adequate to the task.

 

I'm willing to go along with a 15s base recharge time for Traps Trip Mines (which would then wind up being exactly half the base recharge of Devices Trip Mines, further differentiating the two powersets, which I would consider a positive rather than a negative).  How about you?

 

 

 

Now let's cross-check what happened to the Devices version of Trip Mine.

12 hours ago, Tater Todd said:

• Trip Mine:  Interrupt removed. Cast time is now 2.77 seconds. Recharge increased to 30 seconds.

90% (Pre-clamp: 109.23%) chance to proc = 2 * ((30 / ( 1 + 0.00 / 100 )) + 2.77) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 0 * (11 * 0 + 540) / 30,000)))

 

So what you're objecting to has already been made "objectively possible" for Devices Trip Mines.

What we're talking about here is Traps Trip Mines.

8 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

Your suggestion, based on what I'm saying is currently capable with the ability, is to create a power that does this:

• Trip Mine: End Cost - 13, Recharge - 5/s, Grant Player 100% Global Recharge for 5/s, Does not root the player upon cast and has no animation time or delay to the player.

If the interrupt and animation/rooting were removed, just flat out no rebuttal or correction, removed, then Trip Mine becomes an at-will constant-flex trigger for FF+Rech. Now at that point we'd drop to 20/s over 25.148 which will drop the probability enough that it'll reduce somewhere around a... 55-60% chance, still good, and oh yeah totally worth the constant free click. In such a state the power is a direct and dramatic abuse of the game mechanics, and thus a design flaw if allowed to pass in that condition. Regardless of what benefit might be gained or lacking in relation to Traps as a whole or any set it gets paired with, the core concept of such a change is against the mass majority of the game's function and creates the potential for a loop hole that could be abused specific to Traps in its performance, and have negative impact on the validity of any other change that gets implemented with it.

CAN it be done?

Sure.  It's a Clever Use Of Game Mechanics™.

 

Will it cost you NOTHING to do that?

Oh hell no!

 

13 endurance cost every 5s can start getting prohibitive in a hurry.  Even at 13 endurance every 6s you're looking at an endurance cost of -2.17/s.

If you manage to fit +95% endurance reduction into the power, that would still be 6.67 endurance every 6s ... meaning that you're looking at an endurance cost of -1.11/s ... which is in the ballpark of all three Leadership toggles (-0.39/s each) COMBINED.  I have sincere doubts that there are all that many builds which would be able to put Traps Trip Mines on autofire and NOT have the drain on endurance impact their performance in other very important ways.

 

In other words ... No Free Lunch.

 

And if the base recharge for Traps Trip Mines were lowered from 20s to 15s, the endurance drain of putting Trip Mines on autofire to go fishing for Force Feedback procs would become even more ruinous ... since you could use the power more often (increasing the endurance cost over time) while the endurance cost per use of the power would remain the same at 13 ... and the chance to proc Force Feedback would fall from 66.67% down to 50% per cast.  As far as I'm concerned, that would be more than adequate incentive to NOT put Traps Trip Mines on autofire for the reasons you're worried about ... but as always, your mileage may vary.

[Galaxy Brain]

Mom, dad, please stop fighting 😞

[Redlynne]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Mom, dad, please stop fighting 😞

❄️

[gameboy1234]

Playing a Traps MM right now, just for giggles.  I have to say, even with mid range generic IOs the set is SLOW AS SNOT.  Triage Beacon lasts a good long while but it recharges so slowly it's never up.  Plus the fact that the beacon itself lasts so long isn't helpful.  I can kill three groups while that thing is still going (and still recharging).   This means that it's frequently running on some other part of the map while I've moved on, basically doing nothing.

 

Halve the time it lasts, double the healing, half the recharge time.  That would be a start.

 

The other thing about Traps is that it's a real endurance pig.  Like seriously, to excess.  The endurance costs of every power probably needs to go down, and by a lot.  There's just no reason for a secondary like that to cost so much endurance.

Edited June 27, 2020 by gameboy1234

[gameboy1234]

Oh yeah, Caltrops:

 

The "Fear" associated with Caltrops is bugged, imo.  The AI just does crazy stuff when caltrops are out.  So much that I won't use this power on teams.  Pls fix the AI.

[JnEricsonx]

On 6/21/2020 at 1:39 PM, tidge said:

Se my comment about Omega Maneuver, which has a Taunt component to it.

 

My request for Gun Drone has an additional selfish component to it: Mastermind primaries without 'recharge intensive pets' could slot it with the defense/resist IO pieces, allowing for more options in the primary pets. Ideally I'd prefer the mastermind primary pet upgrade powers be altered to accept those IO pieces, but I'll take whatever I can get.

This....oh GOD this.    Granted, it's nice to have the upgrade powers sitting at base slot with just a End Redux in it, but still.

[Sir Myshkin]

16 hours ago, Redlynne said:

I'm willing to go along with a 15s base recharge time for Traps Trip Mines (which would then wind up being exactly half the base recharge of Devices Trip Mines, further differentiating the two powersets, which I would consider a positive rather than a negative).  How about you?

I hadn't really considered going down to reduce effectiveness, but that could work while also giving Traps (on a Support level) a more aggressive use for Trip Mine. Given the offset it could/would provide even at a lowered rate, Ageless easily compensates, but there's also Power Sink, Conserve Power, and Victory Rush available to supplement/fix endurance as well, but a player would be intentionally forced to build to that necessity at that point.

 

The question that comes up from there is whether the damage should be lowered proportionally to the time adjustment then? A small part of me says "just a bit" but... I'd really like to just see one strong component working will to put Traps into a truly "offensive" state that I don't personally feel it ever really existed in. I'd say that'd need some grounds keeping.

 

... Actually, I think I may have exactly what is needed here that fulfills both circumstances. Turn Trip Mine into a toggle. That allows for the slotting but also neuters the FF+Rech. Once every six seconds the player auto-drops a Trip Mine just as you've said and it takes 5/s to "arm" and set the mine, and place the cost as an unchangeable 1.0 EPS. The tech already exists to mimic this in Irradiated Ground as it does exactly this (drops a psuedo pet with a set duration every 5/s), we just need it to drop the Trip Mine pseudo pet.

 

What about something like that?

 

16 hours ago, Redlynne said:

So what you're objecting to has already been made "objectively possible" for Devices Trip Mines.

I kind of went off on a long side tangent about the restrictiveness of the Devices version and how it doesn't pan out nearly as well but, in realm of "objectively possible" is arguably a core benefit but is limited in what it actually brings comparatively to the table simply because of how damaging an additional 10/s of recharge is. Spoiler'd it out:

Spoiler

Even with the FF+Rech in that version it is massively capped in a hurry. By 180% Global Recharge the power is only shrinking by .1's of a second and is still above 10/s in total time. The power has to be internally reduced to break that in a significant way, and still we're only talking about a time shave of a second or two more (which in turn is shooting FF+Rech in the proverbial foot). The power cannot get to the same level of reduction making it impossible to drop the same level of Mine's for a Blaster as it can (in either current or suggested variation) on a Defender. The Devices variant is still force-rooting the player for nearly 3/s as well, another penalty.

 

To me that version of the power is set up in such a way that the conditions needed to get around 10/s of added recharge go so far above it's detrimental in itself. The power will never get as low as the Defender version can (shows the power of a 5/s animation time benefiting the conditioning of the PPM formula). If someone can get around 140% global recharge and drops that proc in they'll be lucky to get 35%-40% utility out of it and just barely cover their requirement for Perma Hasten in most cases. It becomes a "this is nice to ease the stress of my build" option compared to trying to cram high recharge and defense and damage and somanyotherthings into a Blaster build without wickedly over powering it.

 

Frankly the easiest way to "fix" the Defender version (in regards to the debate of the FF+Rech proc) is to make it like the Devices' version. Shorter root, no interrupt, aggressive bump to the recharge to flex out the proc component to that its inevitable addition "helps" but doesn't obtusely skew performance. This kind of shift makes sense in a Secondary set, but this is a Primary unfortunately so of course no one really wants to go that direction because it's pushing the utility of a Primary Power out even further than it already exists when it should be the opposite direction and closer to "more use".

 

tl;dr I wouldn't turn Traps' version of Trip Mine into Devices' version because I believe it's a negative direction to go with trying to improve a set even though it technically checks off a lot of corrective boxes.

 

16 hours ago, Redlynne said:

As far as I'm concerned, that would be more than adequate incentive to NOT put Traps Trip Mines on autofire for the reasons you're worried about ... but as always, your mileage may vary.

So anyway, yeah, actually why don't we make it autofire? Turn it into a 20/s cooldown toggle? That results in effectively what you suggested but takes out the click, takes out the FF+Rech functionality and since the power doesn't interact with (nearly) any other procs anyway... that actually might be a pretty win-win?

 

15 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Mom, dad, please stop fighting 😞

Hey no one's thrown any frying pans* so I think we're okay 🙂

Edited June 28, 2020 by Sir Myshkin
*yet ;)

[Tater Todd]

21 hours ago, Peacemoon said:

I think sums up the problem with traps for me, especially for Defenders.

 

An AR/Devices Blaster vs a AR/Traps Defender I think I’d have more fun with the Blaster, and I usually prefer Defenders. Targeting Done and Field Operative might be less impactful to a team, but Force Field Generator and Mortor just seem like such a faff in comparison. The numbers might be good the gameplay feels awkward. I will give both a try sometime and see for real though.

Traps as a Defender primary can add a lot to a team especially if you invest heavily on the proc side of things.