Sentinels seem... weird.

[Mikazuki]

Preface: please, this is not an attempt to change the way anyone plays, CoH is a very forgiving game and anything works in it. I and some others like understanding how classes work and what their actual strengths/weaknesses are, and that's my target audience. If you are enjoying your sentinel, great! have fun with it~

 

 

now the actual topic:

 

So, so far i've been busy recreating the stuff i used to play on live and gearing those up.

 

Next step is to actually look around and see "what is new", and the new archetype certainly is the most intriguing, so i've done some digging to see "what is sentinel actually about."

 

In the olden days there was always the Blaster vs Corruptor discussion, and it is inevitable that Sentinels will be compared to those two. Amidst several controversial statements it was generally agreed that blasters were better for easily farmable content while corruptors shine the tougher things get.

 

So i wanted to see where the sentinel would fit in that diagram, and when i started looking at the raw numbers i saw.... weird things.

 

First i looked at psychic blast, a set with raw numbers that focuses mostly on one type of damage so numbers are pretty clear.

 

 

Picking Mental Blast as an example:

 

Blasters have:

 

102.60 average base damage

+11% self-damage buff  from defiance.

 

Corruptors have:

 

41.74 average base damage (+41.71 scourge proc)

 

 

Sentinels have:

 

52.83 average base damage.

 

and a -20% resistance to all damage debuff on target

 

 

After seeing that i noticed that while sentinels have much lower damage than both blasters and corruptors, they seem to have an amazing debuff potential, so obviously went for sonic next:

 

Picking Shout as an example:

 

Blasters have:

 

132.63 average base damage

+17.60% self-damage buff  from defiance.

-13% resistance to all damage debuff on target

 

Corruptors have:

 

88.42 average base damage (+88.42 scourge proc)

-15% resistance to all damage on target

 

Sentinels have:

 

112.0 average base damage.

 

.... and 9.60% resistance to all damage on target.

 

 

 

So turns out that Sentinels have an inherent -20% resistance to all damage debuff on all tier 1 and 2 primary attacks. Which has a lot of potential honestly, everyone loves -resistance, even more on fast recharging attacks.

 

But on the other hand, unlike Corruptors and Defenders that have higher debuff %s on their powers despite losing damage as compared to blasters... ALL of the sentinels numbers are severely reduced.

 

Just from looking at raw numbers it seems that Sentinels have less than 50% of the damage potential of a blaster without the benefit of a buff/debuff set like corruptors.

 

Which leads me to their secondaries, which are less surprising than primaries really, just slightly worse than Scrappers and brutes.

 

eg: Temp Invulnerability:

 

Tankers: 30%

Scrappers Brutes: 22.50%

Sentinels: 21%

 

And sentinels dont seem to have any special effects on their secondaries.

 

Their inherent power i didnt really get how it works, the description lists -def - res and notes that targets will suffer +5% damage up to 25%, but their powers list just a flat -20% resistance with no -defense, does this inherent power work at all? All other archetypes have their inherent abilities listed in their detailed power info. Seems to me that this just means that all their Tier 1 and 2 Abilities stack a -20% resistance debuff instead of all powers having a chance to cause -5% resistance.

 

 

So my conclusion for now:

 

The -20% res on all tier 1 and 2 powers i -really- like, that's insane for lower levels(however that may not work like that as outlined by their inherent ability)

 

But... for -res debuffs i'd much rather take a sonic corruptor/defender/blaster as they have -res on all their skills.

 

Other than that sentinels seem to me like... really weak ranged scrappers, they lack critical hit/rage/defiance, their overall damage numbers are really low and they dont have any special abilities to compensate.

 

And they also lack shield defense, i havent fiddled around with bio armor much but not having that is a major red flag for me lol.

 

Please do point out any mistakes on my initial analysis, i have not played one yet and i'm writing this during lulls at work, pondering if i should try something new once i get home.

 

(  ' - ')b

 

 

small edit for readability.

[Super Homer]

Lots of Sentinel attacks seem to have lower cooldown, that likely factors into how much damage they do. This is not uncomon, Dark Blast for Defenders and Blasters is notoriously different. Not all sets get ported-as-is.

 

Have not checked all over, but Archery's Snap Shot seems to be the same on all ATs, and it seems to do this amount of damage on each AT:

 

24.58 Defender

28.36 Corruptor

44.38 Sentiel

52.55 Blaster

 

Based on this, Sentinels seem to do (base damage) 84.5% Blaster damage (and has no defiance.)

 

Activating the -20% Res debuff seems to be tied to the bar mechanic.

 

[FUBARczar]

I'd say a couple of things rq...

 

1.  Screech (all snipes have been replaced by something that's usually great)

2.  The "Nukes" work a little differently, and I remember reading an analysis somewhere better, except Rain of Arrows.

 

 

[FUBARczar]

Lots of Sentinel attacks seem to have lower cooldown, that likely factors into how much damage they do. This is not uncomon, Dark Blast for Defenders and Blasters is notoriously different. Not all sets get ported-as-is.

 

Have not checked all over, but Archery's Snap Shot seems to be the same on all ATs, and it seems to do this amount of damage on each AT:

 

24.58 Defender

28.36 Corruptor

44.38 Sentiel

52.55 Blaster

 

Based on this, Sentinels seem to do (base damage) 84.5% Blaster damage (and has no defiance.)

 

Activating the -20% Res debuff seems to be tied to the bar mechanic.

 

Yeah and for instance Dark Blast gets a much better Targeted AOE attack (Dark Obliteration) Than the narrow cone Tentacles

[Mikazuki]

Its curious, they do lose all snipe powers in exchange for some heavy damage regular powers, nukes seem to still be the same, just weaker.

 

Comparing a few more numbers, lets go with the most famous damage set, fire blast:

 

Inferno:

 

Blaster does 410.94 base average damage.  2m 25s cooldown

Corruptor does 279.42 base average damage (+83.42 scourge proc) 2m 25s cooldown

Defender does 237.43 base average damage.  2m 25s cooldown

Sentinel does 183.52 base average damage.  1m 30s cooldown

 

Blaze:

 

Blaster does 170.49 base average damage. 10s cooldown

Corruptor does 135.32 base average damage (+88.42 scourge proc). 10s cooldown

Sentinel does 135.51 base average damage. 10s cooldown

Defender does 98.50 base average damage.  10s cooldown

 

 

Blazing Bolt:

 

Blaster does 228.99 base average damage. (according to city of data) 12s cooldown

Corruptor does 152.63 base average damage (+115.1 scourge proc). 12s cooldown

Defender does 132.28 base average damage. (according to city of data) 12s cooldown

Sentinel does 120.13 base average damage. 12s cooldown (This is actually Blazing Blast for sentinels)

 

 

Rain of Fire:

 

Blaster does 125.12 base average damage. 1m cooldown

Corruptor does 83.42 base average damage (+83.42 scourge proc). 1m cooldown

Sentinel does 125.12 base average damage. 1m cooldown

Defender does 72.57 base average damage.  1m cooldown

 

 

 

I can see sentinels mix up some of the less popular ranged blast sets and change the interruptable snipe for a lower damage but instant cast heavy nuke, And some powers -seem- like they deal similar damage to blasters because their tiers are rearranged.

eg: rain of fire is  a tier 8 skill for sentinels and tier 4 for the others.

 

Their nukes seem to recharge at a fixed rate of 1 minute 30 seconds unlike blaster's which have a variable rate, the old higher damage nukes that used to drain all your endurance and stun you recharge at 2m 25s for Blaster/Corr/Def thus lose a lot of damage as they tried to balance the damage per recharge.

 

In the other hand the 1 minute cooldown nukes, like Archery and Assault Rifle, deal slightly more comparable damage as their cooldown is increased to 1 minute 30 seconds.

 

I dont know... the class still feels really weird to me. i'll run the numbers for archery and assault rifle later but for now it still seems to me that Sentinels only have about 50% of the damage potential of a blaster.

[Chuckers]

I have a beam/something sentinel... have you take account the special proc they get on levels 1 and 2 powers? I don't really understand them because, right now, the target usually dies before the special proc can show any use. To tell the truth, I don't even understand what the proc power actually does. I know it's different depending on which power you use, but ???

[marcussmythe]

RE: Corruptor Scourge

 

My recollection is that Scourge is a smoothly increasing chance to crit, from 0 to 100%, inverse with base health.

 

As such, it does not double the base damage (as would be the case if Scourge was an auto-crit every shot).

 

It would appear to be a 50% damage increase, but it would actually be less than that - as the foes health drops, your average attack hits harder, so a tough target spends less time under 50% than above.  My gut feel is that it would be at most  a 33% increase in damage out over the targets lifespan, and less than that as damage is dealt in discreet packets rather than continously.

 

Of course, Corruptors may have changed since then...

[summerheat]

The damage output is definitely lower, but I bet the damage cap is lower as well. I don’t think it’s 400% like a blaster. When I got my fire sentinel to 32, I took inferno, popped a tray of reds and yellows, jumped into a mob and...died embarrassingly. Mob showed < 25% damage taken for all. Clearly I did wrong and didn’t understand this lower damage output was so severe, nor had I done much focus on my defensive powers yet.

 

Whatever the case, it is NOT offensive and I don’t think it’s meant to be. It seems like a solution to blappers that chose the worst of both worlds and somehow makes it work. I think the weirdness is the balance. Unlike all other archetypes I’ve played, sentinel seems to require even pickings from primary and secondary. It might have found this unintended balance that relies heavily on primary/secondary specialty synergies. When built right at L50 with the correct sets and bonuses, pool power selections, it can do some stupid-crazy impressive things (I haven’t seen the build, but short answer: bio armor).

 

I do think the AT overall needs some additional editing, but I don’t know that what we have is that far from the desired mark. I just have to figure out how to play it better. It’s NOT a blaster, and it’s not a corruptor. It’s a sentinel. Between the shorter range and lower damage it’s gonna get hit more, and it’s built for it.

[Mikazuki]

After some further digging, the set i found to be most amusing was assault rifle and i think comparing it seems interesting:

 

Beanbag/Disorienting Shot:

 

Blaster does 12.51 base average damage. 3 mag stun for 8s  20s cooldown

Sentinel does 61.28 base average damage. 3 mag stun for 2s  5s cooldown

 

This is actually very interesting, Disorienting shot is a tier 2 power for sentinels so it applies the resistance debuff. And beanbag was always a throwaway power for AR blasters. I mean when properly slotted for cooldown and accuracy this thing can stunlock bosses and apply -res debuffs, not saying this is optimal but it does sound fun.

 

Ignite/Incinerator:

 

Blaster does 278.05 base average damage.  20s cooldown

Sentinel does 120.29 base average damage, 12s cooldown

 

Another very interesting one, ignite always had insane damage but it is so clumsy to use, literally requiring immob/hold or a very powerful slow to be any good, as anything standing in it would obviously try to run out, and with the affected area being so tiny, a lot of AR blasters just skipped this power.

 

But sentinels just outright change it to a targetted single target debuff damage over time attack. It's not amazing, its also single target, but... it is a lot easier to use.

 

Full Auto:

 

Blaster does 178.55 base average damage.  1m cooldown

Sentinel does 127.35 base average damage. 1m 30s cooldown.

 

As mentioned before the higher cooldown does make the base damage more comparable.

 

 

So yeah, sentinels are weird, but also somewhat interesting. I still cant see them being comparable to any of the other classes, but they do seem fun, i do want to try that disorienting shot spam lol.

 

Hope to learn more about them anyway~

 

RE: Corruptor Scourge

 

My recollection is that Scourge is a smoothly increasing chance to crit, from 0 to 100%, inverse with base health.

 

As such, it does not double the base damage (as would be the case if Scourge was an auto-crit every shot).

 

It would appear to be a 50% damage increase, but it would actually be less than that - as the foes health drops, your average attack hits harder, so a tough target spends less time under 50% than above.  My gut feel is that it would be at most  a 33% increase in damage out over the targets lifespan, and less than that as damage is dealt in discreet packets rather than continously.

 

Of course, Corruptors may have changed since then...

 

Each skill has a flat scourge damage value that happens whenever triggered, the chance to trigger is increased as the target's HP gets lower starting at 50% health.  It is not quite a crit, just bonus damage, for tier 1/2 powers it usually means double damage, for higher tier powers its more like a 30% bonus yes.

[marcussmythe]

Each skill has a flat scourge damage value that happens whenever triggered, the chance to trigger is increased as the target's HP gets lower.  It is not quite a crit, just bonus damage, for tier 1/2 powers it usually means double damage, for higher tier powers its more like a 30% bonus yes.

 

My only quibble is showing the 'full damage' as if Scourge auto-triggered.  While Sentinel damage is a bit 'iffy' compared to their closest Scrapper cousins, I think its better than it looks on the surface.

[Mikazuki]

Each skill has a flat scourge damage value that happens whenever triggered, the chance to trigger is increased as the target's HP gets lower.  It is not quite a crit, just bonus damage, for tier 1/2 powers it usually means double damage, for higher tier powers its more like a 30% bonus yes.

 

My only quibble is showing the 'full damage' as if Scourge auto-triggered.  While Sentinel damage is a bit 'iffy' compared to their closest Scrapper cousins, I think its better than it looks on the surface.

 

Fair enough, edited the first post to outline that.

 

And i kinda want to compare sentinels to scrappers as well but finding a comparable set is hard, plus all melee damage archetypes have a bonus damage mechanic, flat crit for scrappers, party crit and stealth attacks for stalkers, rage for brutes. While sentinels have a debuff inherent power which makes them support-ish... just weird.

[DocRadio]

So Sentinels are Range Primary and Defense Secondary?

[FUBARczar]

Full Auto:

 

Blaster does 178.55 base average damage.  1m cooldown

Sentinel does 127.35 base average damage. 1m 30s cooldown.

 

 

Sentinel Full Auto Cone is also a much wider arc of 90 vs the Blaster 20.  Much easy to use and will hit more targets.

[Sovera]

My thing with Sentinels is that while loving them on paper, since I prefer to play range due to CoH's body collision which makes a full team and big spawns a bit of a pain to navigate in combat, the fact is that if I'm staying back and pewpewing then why not do it on a Corruptor and instead of flimsy defenses I'm throwing debuffs that increase my survivability anyway while also increasing mine and everyone's damage?

 

Especially since I happened to overhear one of the changes to anchors is that they keep on working even after the mob is dead, which is huuuuuge and one of the reasons I stopped playing /rad.

[Erratic1]

Full Auto:

 

Blaster does 178.55 base average damage.  1m cooldown

Sentinel does 127.35 base average damage. 1m 30s cooldown.

 

 

Sentinel Full Auto Cone is also a much wider arc of 90 vs the Blaster 20.  Much easy to use and will hit more targets.

 

Subject to the 10 target cap of the AT, I take it?

[Tankshock]

I've been playing a lot of Sentinel.  My take is that it was designed by experienced players.  It's a very smooth experience.  The loopholes, both bad and good, have been removed from their comparable powersets.  They are almost boring due to being so easy to play.

 

But the huge thing that defines Sentinels is status protection.  Everyone is different, but I always chose Doms over Trollers because I don't feel very heroic getting chain-mezzed.  Same reason for choosing Sentinels over Blasters.  You may not do quite as much damage, but you can still more than hold your own in a team.  And no one has to pay attention to keeping you alive.  And you can jump in and PBAoE without having to chug inspirations.  Definitely feels a lot more heroic.

 

As for the class feature, it really helps with bosses and big baddies.  Once the bar fills up (and it fills up fast), hitting a mob with your Tier 1 or 2 will enable a major damage buff for the whole team.  I'm not sure how much, but it's definitely noticeable.  AFAIK, purple patch has no doesn't affect it because it's a team buff, not a debuff.  But I could be wrong on that, it's hard to get numbers.

[marcussmythe]

I've been playing a lot of Sentinel.  My take is that it was designed by experienced players.  It's a very smooth experience.  The loopholes, both bad and good, have been removed from their comparable powersets.  They are almost boring due to being so easy to play.

 

But the huge thing that defines Sentinels is status protection.  Everyone is different, but I always chose Doms over Trollers because I don't feel very heroic getting chain-mezzed.  Same reason for choosing Sentinels over Blasters.  You may not do quite as much damage, but you can still more than hold your own in a team.  And no one has to pay attention to keeping you alive.  And you can jump in and PBAoE without having to chug inspirations.  Definitely feels a lot more heroic.

 

As for the class feature, it really helps with bosses and big baddies.  Once the bar fills up (and it fills up fast), hitting a mob with your Tier 1 or 2 will enable a major damage buff for the whole team.  I'm not sure how much, but it's definitely noticeable.  AFAIK, purple patch has no doesn't affect it because it's a team buff, not a debuff.  But I could be wrong on that, it's hard to get numbers.

 

Second on the ‘designed by experienced players’.

 

A lot of ‘WTF were they thinking’, bad and good, present in other ATs/Powersets is just absent from Sentinels.  This probably makes them a good choice for relaxed play, “I just want to play the game”, but leaves them feeling weak compared to the ‘good’ builds (usually good meaning damage) available to other ATs.  Their a great place to build a cool superhero, but not nearly as fertile ground for serious sleeves-rolled-up levels of optimization.

[Sovera]

Let us know what sort of tentative build you whip up on the AR sentinel, @Mikazuki, the uber fast animations have enticed me as have the multitude of AoEs that can be unloaded. Like everyone else I'm running Bio atm for the obvious reasons.

[FUBARczar]

Full Auto:

 

Blaster does 178.55 base average damage.  1m cooldown

Sentinel does 127.35 base average damage. 1m 30s cooldown.

 

 

 

Sentinel Full Auto Cone is also a much wider arc of 90 vs the Blaster 20.  Much easy to use and will hit more targets.

 

Subject to the 10 target cap of the AT, I take it?

Yeah 10 just like Blasters, so let's say it's much easy to hit the max target amount than for blasters

[Solymer89]

Limited game knowledge as I never played CoH in earnest when the game was live, but I've played a Dark Blast/Bio Armor Sent to lvl 36 so far.  When the bar fills your first two attacks highlight.  The first attack is an offensive boost; not sure about the actual numbers, the damage is noticeable though.  The second attack is a defensive boost, so when active each attack gives back some endurance and health based off damage done I believe. 

 

It's a bit random and I haven't been able to really plan around it's use, more like use it when it's available as it pops back up in a relatively short time.  The initial target of the first or second ability gets a target graphic around them which allows the rest of the team to benefit from either the offense or defense inherent while you maintain the bonus against all other targets while it is active as well.  I love it because you have a reactionary choice given your current circumstance.  Low on end?  Defensive boost, full health/end?  Offensive.  Coupled with Bio's offensive aura as well as the health and end/heal ability (with proper amounts of recharge) allows you to remain in offensive stance through most fights, though it took a bit to get things functioning to the point.  At level 36 I can comfortably solo at +1/2 and end most fights with full health/endurance as well as having most if not all cooldowns up and ready to go. 

 

I have to try some other power-sets with sentinel to get a better idea of what the AT actually is but I've enjoyed it better than the plethora of other ATs I have tried so far, though none have gotten to the level of the Sentinel yet.  Bio armor may be covering up some of the inherent weaknesses of the AT and I have little frame of reference compared to the other ATs for damage purposes.  All I can say is I haven't come across a single enemy that gives me pause or trouble.  Bio armor itself doesn't seem suited well enough for farming groups of mobs due to the necessity of having defensive aura on which lowers damage done by 7.5% I believe so defenses out of defense aura are low, and resists are almost negligible.  However stance dancing seems to be a thing so it lends itself to a more reactionary play style.  Efficient stance is great for when you're struggling with endurance. 

 

Looking forward to some more input from others on the AT!

[Erratic1]

Think it was stated upthread the vulnerability bar fills based on how much damage you do. I know if I hit a lot of targets with Howl on my Sonic/Bio Sentinel the bar pretty much fills.

[tjknight]

I have a level 30 Rad/Rad sentinel. Which should be a level 50 now, but I suffer from alt-itis  ::).  When playing a Sentinel you really need to think of the 'classic' superhero type (For example: The Human Torch, Iron Man, Firestorm, The Punisher). That type of hero is pretty much self sufficient. He/she can blast enemies (with powers or ranged weapons), while still having some defense/armor.

 

Sentinels remind me of Khelds or VEATS when it comes to play-style. They can off-tank, do some damage, and remain standing after the alpha-strike. I've been on some teams with higher level Sentinels, and after they were beasts. They don't require as much babysitting as Blasters. And aren't burdened with having to keep up buffs like Corruptors.

 

On my Rad/Rad I've found myself still standing after a team wipe (along with the Tank/Brute).  Which frees up healers to rez the rest of the team. So I guess "off-tank" is much better description for a Hybrid AT like this. At least that's how I think of them.

[oedipus_tex]

There are a few additional considerations I think we should take into account with this class.

 

- Mezz Protection

Mezz Protection is the distinguisher that elevates melee ATs into soloists. If you are mezzed, you can do nothing, not even eat a inspiration (other than an anti mezz).

 

- Resist Debuff Affects the Whole Team

I'm assuming I'm understanding their offensive ability correctly in that the ability is a -Resist similar to Sonic Blast. If so, that means the Sentinel is boosting the damage output of any team member who strikes the same target. It is true that actual Sonic Blast is better at this. But Sonic Blast is probably the most unbalanced blast set (IMO) and not a great frame of reference. The Sentinel debuff is as good as an actual power like Sonic Siphon from Sonic Resonance.

 

- Easy Soft Capping

This probably is self evident, but its hard to stress how much access to base defense of any kind boosts survivability. A Blaster needs millions of influence to catch up, and the same in etment in a Sentinel would leave it lightyears more survivable

[MrSamoa]

I hit 50 on my Sentinel and only just now think it's good, ha. I kept thinking "oh, once I get this power it'll even out" but it wasn't until I hit Incarnates that I really felt I was contributing. I built a Pistols/Dark Sentinel and learned:

 

-I saw someone say "a Blaster but alive" and that's about right

-Pretty solid solo: decent damage and rare deaths. Never been mezzed.

-Moderate team contribution - not enough damage to really be "the damage" on big/AV teams and not resistant enough to tank reliably.

 

Now that I hit Incarnate and have slotted some expensive IO sets, I can jump into most mobs and hit my PBAoEs/AoEs and take out most of them. With some support boosting my recharge and recovery I can really do some damage, but even with slotted IO sets I struggle a bit with end recovery in extended fights (I usually drop my shields fighting AVs to be able to keep mashing attacks).

 

I'll note that I'm in no way an enhancement expert, but I understand the mechanics and have everything "properly" slotted.

 

Overall I don't regret the Sentinel, but it was the first character I made on Homecoming and once I finally did make a Blaster alt I realized just how much less damage I had been doing all that time.

[Tankshock]

I kinda felt the opposite, that this was the easiest class to level, but without real high end potential.  I felt like the toon was finished at 40, which has never happened before.  Well thought out class, smooth ride.  Took all 18 class abilities (Fire/Rad).  But Epic adds next to nothing.  Incarnate will of course add stuff, but it won't put me over the top on anything. 

 

Sents will never tank, I think anyone expecting that will be disappointed.  But they can put out plenty of damage, especially with zero downtime and never worrying about mez or staying alive.  It feels like a hero when you play one.  They really bring a lot to a team when it comes to taking down AV and GM, too.