Rad or Invuln

[Hjarki]

3 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

3: Depends on how much DDR you have.  Go ahead, stick an optioned-out SR Tank up against +4x8 Cimerorans and see how little their Defenses actually fluctuate.
4: Please point out where in Mids "End Drain Resist" is indicated.

The way cascading defense failures work, the first -defense debuff that sneaks through lowers your defense and makes the next one easier to land. This process repeats until they're all landing on a regular basis. However, there's a wrinkle: there are only so many attacks that can be attempted within the window of the debuff.

 

What this means in practice is that if you have Incarnate-level Defense and 0% DDR, you are better at dealing with defense debuffs than soft-cap Defense and 50% DDR. The DDR merely slows the collapse while the excess Defense delays its start.

 

In Mid's, you can find Endurance Drain Resist in the View Totals window, under Status. It's near the bottom.

 

The remainder of your points have already been extensively answered.

Edited July 20, 2020 by Hjarki

[Hyperstrike]

1: I understand how cascading failures work.  You aren't educating anyone here.
2: You're ignoring how many actual incoming attacks can actually land during an Alpha strike.  Each carrying their own debuff.
And in non-incarnate content, Incarnate soft-cap means nothing.  It's still treated like 45%.  So, unless you're going to apply "special circumstances" to the entirety of the game.  So sure, you START at a higher number.  But if debuffs land equally, you're going to wind up naked just as fast.

Don't take my word for it, throw it in Excel.  Do the math for yourself.

And Endurance Debuff isn't "Endurance Drain".  Nor is Recovery Debuff.
EndDebuff is reduction of the maximum amount of endurance  you can build.
Recovery Debuff slows how fast you rebuild End.
A sapping attack simply subtracts a set amount (or percentage) of End from your pool. 
 

[Werner]

6 hours ago, parabola said:

Barrier? Very impressive though, I'd be interested in seeing that build?

Me too. I'd love to do better, but this is where I'd gotten fiddling with Invuln/MA, which has a 10% head start on defense.

This is 1 in range of Invincibility, so maybe we're looking at 10 in range? That would explain the defense. I've hit similar defense numbers without MA, but sacrificed more on the resistance front. I'm unclear where the resists are coming from, though they'll often be higher than Mids' shows in practice due to multiple stacks of the ATO and scaling resists from Reactive Defenses, so yeah, definitely not weak to other types when built for it endgame, just weaker than to smashing/lethal, though if you throw Barrier on top of it, the difference mostly evaporates even with the 6% tail end, but I went Rebirth. Not an actual character of mine, just fiddling in Mids' while thinking of making one. I ultimately went with Dark Armor/Martial Arts instead, but more because I love Dark Armor than thinking it was clearly superior. It definitely doesn't handle defense debuffs as well. I've not fiddled much with Radiation builds. Sure the resists are great, but no defense and no DDR makes me squirm a little. I already have enough trouble with Dark Armor, which has at least a little defense with no DDR. But I suppose in practice the defense would be virtually identical when it matters, which is when facing heavy defense debuffs, where I buy myself maybe an extra few seconds of ablative defense with Dark Armor, which is hardly a game changer. Maybe I need to take a more serious look at Radiation. 

Edited July 20, 2020 by Werner

[marcussmythe]

12 minutes ago, Werner said:

Me too. I'd love to do better, but this is where I'd gotten fiddling with Invuln/MA, which has a 10% head start on defense.

This is 1 in range of Invincibility, so maybe we're looking at 10 in range? That would explain the defense. I've hit similar defense numbers without MA, but sacrificed more on the resistance front. I'm unclear where the resists are coming from, though they'll often be higher than Mids' shows in practice due to multiple stacks of the ATO and scaling resists from Reactive Defenses, so yeah, definitely not weak to other types when built for it endgame, just weaker than to smashing/lethal, though if you throw Barrier on top of it, the difference mostly evaporates even with the 6% tail end, but I went Rebirth. Not an actual character of mine, just fiddling in Mids' while thinking of making one. I ultimately went with Dark Armor/Martial Arts instead, but more because I love Dark Armor than thinking it was clearly superior. It definitely doesn't handle defense debuffs as well. I've not fiddled much with Radiation builds. Sure the resists are great, but no defense and no DDR makes me squirm a little. I already have enough trouble with Dark Armor, which has at least a little defense with no DDR. But I suppose in practice the defense would be virtually identical when it matters, which is when facing heavy defense debuffs, where I buy myself maybe an extra few seconds of ablative defense with Dark Armor, which is hardly a game changer. Maybe I need to take a more serious look at Radiation. 

Radiation gets a lot of worship because it is tough ENOUGH for almost everything, while giving free candy in the form of Absorb Shields (good against specific encounters), not having real holes, a pair of pocket procnukes, heals, recharge...  Radiation is a monster, and against certain specific fights, the absorb shields it a game changer - its almost as if the developers added content to wreck existing sets, and then added new sets to handle the devleopers latest pet monsters...

 

That said, as someone who runs both INV and RAD (and Bio and SR and...) - my radiation has to watch its health in content where my invuln is at *yawn*.  Rad is tough enough, but I perceive invuln as significantly tougher (outside the toxic/psi holes, with I think are unjustified).  Even my real bete noir for Invuln, the Vanguard and PPD Awakened, are only a problem because I have chosen to pursue damage, rather than overcapping DEF and or capping energy resist - but thats a tradeoff I accept (and have another build I can swap to for that sort of traffic)

 

Radiation definitely deserves a look, and is a fantastic set.  As this thread has beaten (TO DEATH), its probably a dead heat with Bioarmor for best choice - because even though other sets are (IMHO) tougher against the vast majority of content, any tank is tough ENOUGH against the vast majority of content, and Rad and Bio have extra damage, utility, and specific abilities that seem intended to give them a fighting chance against the parts of the content that were custom designed to wreck all the old tank sets.

 

If you saw more heavy res debuffing baddies, or more stacked CC baddies (Ive been held through my shields on Rad several times yesterday.  I think its happened like.. twice... on my invuln... ever), or simply more 'hits like an utter truck' 3000+ raw DPS S/L Mobs, you would shift the meta away from the Bio/Rad crew and back towards the oldschool sets.  But the current endgame was tuned AGAINST them, and the later P2W powersets were tuned to against that same content.  Or so it appears to me.  

 

My 2c.  YMMV.  TLDR.  SPQR.  Rage Delenda Est

[Hjarki]

5 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

1: I understand how cascading failures work.  You aren't educating anyone here.

Apparently you don't understand how cascading failures work.

 

If I have 59% defense and get hit by a -5% defense attack, I now have 54% defense... which means I'm still capped. If I have 45% defense and 50% DDR, getting hit with the same attack means I'm now at 42.5% defense. Because these debuffs only last 5 - 10 sec, all you care about is a fairly short window of time. For such short windows of time, the advantage of being able to take three attacks before your defense starts lowering is better than the advantage of DDR with defense that shows immediate consequences.

 

5 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

And Endurance Debuff isn't "Endurance Drain".  Nor is Recovery Debuff.
EndDebuff is reduction of the maximum amount of endurance  you can build.
Recovery Debuff slows how fast you rebuild End.
A sapping attack simply subtracts a set amount (or percentage) of End from your pool. 

An 'Endurance debuff' is also known as 'Endurance drain' in the same way 'Health debuff' would also be known as 'Damage'. What you're talking about would be a 'Max Endurance Debuff' (which doesn't exist as far as I know).

Edited July 20, 2020 by Hjarki

[Hyperstrike]

6 hours ago, Werner said:

Me too. I'd love to do better, but this is where I'd gotten fiddling with Invuln/MA, which has a 10% head start on defense.

This is 1 in range of Invincibility, so maybe we're looking at 10 in range? That would explain the defense. I've hit similar defense numbers without MA, but sacrificed more on the resistance front. I'm unclear where the resists are coming from, though they'll often be higher than Mids' shows in practice due to multiple stacks of the ATO and scaling resists from Reactive Defenses, so yeah, definitely not weak to other types when built for it endgame, just weaker than to smashing/lethal, though if you throw Barrier on top of it, the difference mostly evaporates even with the 6% tail end, but I went Rebirth. Not an actual character of mine, just fiddling in Mids' while thinking of making one. I ultimately went with Dark Armor/Martial Arts instead, but more because I love Dark Armor than thinking it was clearly superior. It definitely doesn't handle defense debuffs as well. I've not fiddled much with Radiation builds. Sure the resists are great, but no defense and no DDR makes me squirm a little. I already have enough trouble with Dark Armor, which has at least a little defense with no DDR. But I suppose in practice the defense would be virtually identical when it matters, which is when facing heavy defense debuffs, where I buy myself maybe an extra few seconds of ablative defense with Dark Armor, which is hardly a game changer. Maybe I need to take a more serious look at Radiation. 

Basically Rad Armor has a sufficient blend of Resist, Absorb and Healing/Regen that killing it becomes quite a feat.  Add in a bit of sacrificial Defense, without compromising maxing your Resists as much as possible and it becomes ridiculous.

On my initial play through with Rad, I tried the standard "Just add Defense in!" hybrid build.
The problem was, lack of DDR meant that the second my Defense was cracked, it evaporated.  Leaving me only Resists that had been compromised to make room for Defense.  Those first Arachnos missions in the RWZ were a bloodbath.

At that point, I rebuilt for heavy (not maxed, I didn't spend THAT much time tweaking it yet) Resists, with Defense being PURELY incidental.
The overall result was stunning.  It's what got me to go back and rebuild my Fire and Elec Tanks in a similar manner.  And while they don't have the same Regen that Rad does, they're ridiculously hard to kill.

[Bill Z Bubba]

On 7/20/2020 at 3:36 PM, Hjarki said:

If I have 59% defense and get hit by a -5% defense attack, I now have 54% defense... which means I'm still capped. If I have 45% defense and 50% DDR, getting hit with the same attack means I'm now at 42.5% defense. Because these debuffs only last 5 - 10 sec, all you care about is a fairly short window of time. For such short windows of time, the advantage of being able to take three attacks before your defense starts lowering is better than the advantage of DDR with defense that shows immediate consequences.

And 2 that get through takes them to 45 and 40. Then 40 and 37.5. Then 35 each. Then 30 and 32.5. Then 25 and 30. Just 4 attacks for things to balance out and a 5th for DDR to pull ahead.

And how many attacks come through when you're taking the alpha from a full spawn of max diff Cimerorans?

 

Yesterday, I took my freshly T4ed Fiery Armor tank into a solo +1 MoITF and came out the other end after around an hour with the Master badge.

Today, I took that same tank into a solo +4 ITF and watched in horror as his 30% melee defense crumpled in seconds and was rapidly dropped into the -50-60% range. Then the Kheldians added in their slows and then he faceplanted. This occurred multiple times. Course those Khel slows were a constant problem in that second clear the cysts mission.

 

Ya know what's awesome about SR and its 95% DDR? That never happens.

[Hjarki]

3 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

And 2 that get through takes them to 45 and 40. Then 40 and 37.5. Then 35 each. Then 30 and 32.5. Then 25 and 30. Just 4 attacks for things to balance out and a 5th for DDR to pull ahead.

Two -5% attacks on 59% Defense with no DDR takes their effective Defense from 45% to 45%. Two -5% on 45% Defense and 50% DDR takes you from 45% to 40%. The result is the DDR version enters a cascading defense failure much sooner than the 'raw defense' version. Moreover, it takes a hell of lot more than 4/5 attacks for 'things to balance out' because those attacks have to hit - and it's significantly harder to hit the over-capped Defense than the Defense-with-DDR.

 

If you either look at the probability distributions or model it, you'll see that Defense-over-cap is better than capped-Defense-with-DDR under virtually any reasonable assumptions for dealing with defense debuffs.

6 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Ya know what's awesome about SR and its 95% DDR? That never happens.

Super Reflexes has both. But if it didn't have DDR at all, it would still almost never fear a catastrophic defense failure (at least on a Tanker) due to its over-capped defenses.

[Bill Z Bubba]

 

48 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

Super Reflexes has both. But if it didn't have DDR at all, it would still almost never fear a catastrophic defense failure (at least on a Tanker) due to its over-capped defenses.

Completely false statement. Absolutely, categorically, hysterically wrong. It's also easy to test. Go start an ITF with a character with no defense. Take a full load of purples insps to stay at 50% defense. That's just two medium lucks a pop. Do not eat more unless they are about to expire. Stand in a group. Monitor defense.

 

Now do the same with an SR scrapper, brute and tank with the same slotting for equivalency. The scrapper and brute around 45% defense to all positions and 95% DDR and the tank should be sitting around 56% and 95% DDR.

 

The actual cascading defense failure that will befall the character without DDR will rapidly become apparent.

 

50 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

Moreover, it takes a hell of lot more than 4/5 attacks for 'things to balance out' because those attacks have to hit - and it's significantly harder to hit the over-capped Defense than the Defense-with-DDR.

No, in normal content it doesn't matter if your defense is at 45% or 200%. Once you're at the softcap on defense, ALL incoming attacks have a 5% chance to hit which is then adjusted by critter rank, level and power adjusted accuracy. This is true whether you're at 45% in normal content or 58% in incarnate content. The floor is the floor.

 

Yes, it is still true that if you enter a battle having eaten a huge luck, you will get to delay the defense failures caused by defense debuffs, possibly long enough to survive, but eventually those lucks will run out. And the characters with DDR will keep truckin while those attempting to rely on defense and no DDR will fall by the wayside.

[Hyperstrike]

21 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Completely false statement. Absolutely, categorically, hysterically wrong. It's also easy to test. Go start an ITF with a character with no defense. Take a full load of purples insps to stay at 50% defense. That's just two medium lucks a pop. Do not eat more unless they are about to expire. Stand in a group. Monitor defense.

 

Now do the same with an SR scrapper, brute and tank with the same slotting for equivalency. The scrapper and brute around 45% defense to all positions and 95% DDR and the tank should be sitting around 56% and 95% DDR.

 

The actual cascading defense failure that will befall the character without DDR will rapidly become apparent.

 

No, in normal content it doesn't matter if your defense is at 45% or 200%. Once you're at the softcap on defense, ALL incoming attacks have a 5% chance to hit which is then adjusted by critter rank, level and power adjusted accuracy. This is true whether you're at 45% in normal content or 58% in incarnate content. The floor is the floor.

 

Yes, it is still true that if you enter a battle having eaten a huge luck, you will get to delay the defense failures caused by defense debuffs, possibly long enough to survive, but eventually those lucks will run out. And the characters with DDR will keep truckin while those attempting to rely on defense and no DDR will fall by the wayside.

Dude!  I've only been playing Tanks for 12 years, and you, a while longer.

What do WE know?

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Dude!  I've only been playing Tanks for 12 years, and you, a while longer.

What do WE know?

I must admit I'm relatively new to this whole tank thing. Never really groked it back on live. But defense and DDR and the tohit equations REALLY don't care about archetypes.

 

That said... dude... SR at tank values.... daaaaaaamn.

[Hjarki]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Completely false statement. Absolutely, categorically, hysterically wrong. It's also easy to test. Go start an ITF with a character with no defense. Take a full load of purples insps to stay at 50% defense. That's just two medium lucks a pop. Do not eat more unless they are about to expire. Stand in a group. Monitor defense.

For the numbers I cited - 59% defense/0% DDR vs. 45% defense/50% DDR - my statements are absolutely true. You can experience this in game or you can model it mathematically. I'm not sure why you're introducing numbers that aren't relevant to the conversation.

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

For the numbers I cited - 59% defense/0% DDR vs. 45% defense/50% DDR - my statements are absolutely true. You can experience this in game or you can model it mathematically. I'm not sure why you're introducing numbers that aren't relevant to the conversation.

 

The statement I quoted that is completely false:

 

3 hours ago, Hjarki said:

But if it didn't have DDR at all, it would still almost never fear a catastrophic defense failure (at least on a Tanker) due to its over-capped defenses.

 

This statement on its face without anything else is completely false. Running around with 59% defense and no DDR and expecting that to function as decent mitigation without other forms of mitigation backing it up is silly. That 59% defense will turn to negative defense on one max diff spawn in DA.

[Troo]

   This took a turn.

 

Edited July 30, 2020 by Troo

[Hyperstrike]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I must admit I'm relatively new to this whole tank thing. Never really groked it back on live. But defense and DDR and the tohit equations REALLY don't care about archetypes.

 

That said... dude... SR at tank values.... daaaaaaamn.

Yeah, if you're able to pack in significant +Res on top of all the ridiculous Defense?

[Hyperstrike]

2 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

*Truthbomb*

Where's Arcanaville when needed?

[Hyperstrike]

13 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

For the numbers I cited - 59% defense/0% DDR vs. 45% defense/50% DDR - my statements are absolutely true. You can experience this in game or you can model it mathematically. I'm not sure why you're introducing numbers that aren't relevant to the conversation.

You simply going "Nononono"  and spouting an example that doesn't reflect reality gets you nothing.

You've had multiple Tanking experts and people VERY familiar with how the Res, Def, DDR, etc systems ACTUALLY WORK tell you you're wrong.

Unless you can provide definitive mathematic proof that proves Arcanaville's formulas, which have held true for basically A DECADE OR MORE IN-GAME (the same Arcanaville who Paragon hired to go over their power and balance equations), you're convincing nobody.

And before beginning your exercise, please read this AGAIN.

https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Soft_Cap

[Hjarki]

2 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

You simply going "Nononono"  and spouting an example that doesn't reflect reality gets you nothing.

You've had multiple Tanking experts and people VERY familiar with how the Res, Def, DDR, etc systems ACTUALLY WORK tell you you're wrong.

And those supposed 'experts' are incorrect.

 

The soft-cap is applied as part of the final calculation. That's why going over the cap helps against +hit boosted mobs. If you receive a -defense debuff, it is applied to total defense - not some arbitrarily cut-down defense like you seem to think it is.

 

So if you're at 59% defense and receive a -5% defense, you are now at 54% defense... not 40% defense like you seem to think.

 

So let's say you're at 59% defense/0% DDR and receive a -5% defense attack. The expected value of this attack is -5% * 0.05 = -0.25%. It will remain at this level until you drop below 45% Defense, so you can suffer (59 - 45) / 0.25 = 56 such attacks before your defense starts to drop.

 

However, if you're 45% defense/50% DDR and receive the same sort of attack, you're immediately 56 attacks behind the 59% Tanker. While the 0 attacks 45% Defense Tanker will have their Defense drop more slowly from this point than the 56 attacks 59% Defense Tanker, they have a long way to go to catch up.

 

There is no simple distribution that models the behavior at this point, but you can easily check for yourself with a basic Monte Carlo simulation. Since most -defense debuffs have durations about as long as their recharge, this means that 56 attacks active at the same is nearly impossible.

 

Indeed, you might check the source you're citing:

 

Quote

Defense. +45% is the soft cap on Defense versus an attack. Due to the way the game's Attack Mechanics work, any more Defense past that will not make the character any harder to hit, except in cases where the attackers have ToHit buffs, are six or more levels above him, or can give him -Defense debuffs.

Emphasis mine. Defense debuffs are not calculated based on your soft-cap value. They are calculated before your soft-cap value, so having more Defense than necessary protects against Defense debuffs.

 

I've done the math. I've observed in game. Your supposed 'experts' have apparently done neither.

[Xanatos]

Why are you guys still arguing with the guy who thought invuln didn't have a taunt aura? lol

 

Oh, and Barrier's 2-minute bonus, plus 2-stacking the Tanker ATO, is how i got those numbers. @Werner's build should put out the same numbers. (Imagine going Ageless for the DDR and picking up the P2W defense buff is more optimal, though.)

Edited July 29, 2020 by Xanatos

[Hyperstrike]

31 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

Why are you guys still arguing...

Masochism.

[Banni]

On 7/19/2020 at 12:29 PM, Xanatos said:

He has 58.9% defense to everything except psi.

 

He has 90% res to everything.

@Xanatos Could you post your build? I am curious 🙂

[Werner]

7 hours ago, Hjarki said:

So let's say you're at 59% defense/0% DDR and receive a -5% defense attack. The expected value of this attack is -5% * 0.05 = -0.25%. It will remain at this level until you drop below 45% Defense, so you can suffer (59 - 45) / 0.25 = 56 such attacks before your defense starts to drop.

I assume you meant to say 95% DDR? And I assume that by “before your defense starts to drop” you mean drop to the point where garden-variety non-incarnate enemies have a higher chance of hitting you?

 

As an aside, I think there may be a max raw defense debuff of 100%? I often see 100%, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen over. Too lazy to look it up right now. If so, a 59% def 95% DDR should only be debuffable to 54% ever. Anyway, even on SR I try to get a few points over the incarnate cap to cope with defense debuffs in incarnate content because every point is handling another 20% in debuffs, which feels very worthwhile. Seriously overcapping an Invuln with 50% DDR works pretty well most of the time I’m sure.

[Infinitum]

7 hours ago, Hjarki said:

And those supposed 'experts' are incorrect.

 

The soft-cap is applied as part of the final calculation. That's why going over the cap helps against +hit boosted mobs. If you receive a -defense debuff, it is applied to total defense - not some arbitrarily cut-down defense like you seem to think it is.

 

So if you're at 59% defense and receive a -5% defense, you are now at 54% defense... not 40% defense like you seem to think.

 

So let's say you're at 59% defense/0% DDR and receive a -5% defense attack. The expected value of this attack is -5% * 0.05 = -0.25%. It will remain at this level until you drop below 45% Defense, so you can suffer (59 - 45) / 0.25 = 56 such attacks before your defense starts to drop.

 

However, if you're 45% defense/50% DDR and receive the same sort of attack, you're immediately 56 attacks behind the 59% Tanker. While the 0 attacks 45% Defense Tanker will have their Defense drop more slowly from this point than the 56 attacks 59% Defense Tanker, they have a long way to go to catch up.

 

There is no simple distribution that models the behavior at this point, but you can easily check for yourself with a basic Monte Carlo simulation. Since most -defense debuffs have durations about as long as their recharge, this means that 56 attacks active at the same is nearly impossible.

 

Indeed, you might check the source you're citing:

 

Emphasis mine. Defense debuffs are not calculated based on your soft-cap value. They are calculated before your soft-cap value, so having more Defense than necessary protects against Defense debuffs.

 

I've done the math. I've observed in game. Your supposed 'experts' have apparently done neither.

Yeah thats not how it works.

 

I have tested it in game and while having defense is good even if you dont have ddr it will fail without DDR very fast.

 

At best it allows you to absorb more of the alpha by some of it missing you.

[Omega-202]

This whole argument is ridiculous.  What Tank build is getting to 59% defense without having DDR in one of it's powers?  The whole conversation is pointless because that scenario basically never happens.  

 

The only scenario where "59% defense and no DDR" would even matter is a Boosted+Clarioned Time Defender, a trio of VEATs or someone eating enough purple pills to kill a camel.  Is it really worth discussing?

[Werner]

11 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

What Tank build is getting to 59% defense without having DDR in one of it's powers?

Dark/Katana without Ageless Radial fighting Cimerorans, perhaps. But yes, 59% with no DDR probably won't be a common situation.