Rad or Invuln

[Hyperstrike]

9 hours ago, Hjarki said:

Invulnerability is what I'd call a 'weak' Tanker set.

 

Uh..WUT?

 

9 hours ago, Hjarki said:

It has no taunt aura,

 

Uh.  Open up an Invuln in Mids please.
Now look at the Effects tab in Invincibility.
Notice the line called TAUNT in there...

And remember that the only reason you can't slot Taunt enhancements into it now is because the Devs never intended it to be a DAMAGE aura..
 

9 hours ago, Hjarki said:

it's weak to everything except S/L

 

Take a look at most Tank armors.  They generally all have a specialty.  Just that Invuln is vs the most common damage in the game...
Wow.  The most common damage.
But hey, having 90% Psi Resist and 2% S/L Resist would be REALLY useful leveing up.  Right?

 

9 hours ago, Hjarki said:

and it's focused on typed rather than positional defenses.

 

The way the game works, there's nothing inherently superior in the comparison between Typed vs Vectored Defense.  NOTHING.

 

9 hours ago, Hjarki said:

It has no bonuses to recharge or recovery with minimal healing. Radiation can do what Invulnerability does better in pretty much every respect except max hp.

Why would Invuln need recharge boosts?  Most Tank armors don't offer them.

And why would Invuln NEED elaborate healing mechanisms beyond Dull Pain?  It's both a Heal and +HP (which equates into a Regen boost.  And on a purpled out Invuln, you use DP only slightly more than you do Unstoppable (which really shouldn't be required at all since it's just a delayed death sentence).

You don't need to Heal/Regen Damage you just never take..
And I will point this out again, Healing and Regen are NOT "Damage mitigation".

Rad is a Resist-based Armor set.  Between its Regen and the massive Resists you can build in a purpled out plan, you're a God.

But you're essentially ALWAYS getting hit on a Resist build.  And various attacks may be carrying more than just Damage to you.
Having high Energy Resist doesn't make you immune to sapping attacks.

Invuln basically can stack huge Defense, allowing full-on Damage AVOIDANCE.  Which ALSO means avoiding secondary effects.

 

Basically the way the math works out, in terms of Damage mitigation, Defense > Resist. 
But Defense + Resist > Defense > Resist.

I'm sorry man, but you're wrong.

[KC4800]

They're both great. Can't go wrong with either choice.

[Hyperstrike]

On 7/17/2020 at 4:18 AM, Xavier51 said:

Hi all, 

 

I'm currently playing a Rad/Fire Brute for farming inf and boosting up my other characters.

I've yet to set a main character, I always used to play an Invuln/SS Tanker back on live, is Invuln still up there with the top tier armors like Rad/Bio as I'm torn between Rad and Invuln armor.

 

Any help would be appreciated.

If you're looking for a final build with maximum enhancement, and you're looking for maximum durability, look at Invuln.
It's, quite simply, the next best thing to a Stoner in Granite.  With none of Stone's downsides.
Other hybrid setups (WP, Shield, Dark) can get close.  But Invuln generally winds up on top of the pile.

 

[Hyperstrike]

3 minutes ago, KC4800 said:

They're both great. Can't go wrong with either choice.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
THIS

[Omega-202]

34 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

There's a chart out there somewhere that shows it. Invulnerability is good against S/L (largely worthless due to the fact that you get +12% from ATO and +15% from Toughness) but poor against all other damage types. Its "heal" is actually a 360 sec recharge hp buff. It has no recharge, recovery, regeneration or +damage.

 

It just doesn't bring a whole lot to the table. It's fair-to-middling in terms of durability and it brings nothing else to the table besides merely being somewhat adequate at resist/defense. If you've got an Invulnerability build, it's nearly certain that you could swap out Invulnerability for another power set and you'd end up with a stronger build.

 

 

Please read the whole conversation before interjecting.

 

That part of the thread was talking about how Invuln is not great for Tanks, but is pretty good for the other ATs.  I fully have acknowledged that it's overkill on SL and lacks utility for Tanks, but for other ATs it provides more layered resist and defense than most other sets. 

[Hyperstrike]

25 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

There's a chart out there somewhere that shows it. Invulnerability is good against S/L (largely worthless due to the fact that you get +12% from ATO and +15% from Toughness) but poor against all other damage types. Its "heal" is actually a 360 sec recharge hp buff. It has no recharge, recovery, regeneration or +damage.

 

It just doesn't bring a whole lot to the table. It's fair-to-middling in terms of durability and it brings nothing else to the table besides merely being somewhat adequate at resist/defense. If you've got an Invulnerability build, it's nearly certain that you could swap out Invulnerability for another power set and you'd end up with a stronger build.

Invuln doesn't need to bring a lot to the table.
It's pretty much self-sufficient.

When you can soft-cap your Typed Defenses with zero enemies in range?
When, in a large enough group, saturated Invincibility gives you Typed Defenses well above the INCARNATE SOFT-CAP.
When your resting End consumption is below 0.8 without Energy Master/Conserve Power and your Recovery is 3.05?
When, underneath that massive Defense you're looking at 90/80/80/60/30.
 

Spoiler

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.7.2.10
https://github.com/Crytilis/mids-reborn-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Mo Durable 2a: Level 50 Technology Tanker
Primary Power Set: Invulnerability
Secondary Power Set: Super Strength
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Flight
Ancillary Pool: Pyre Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Resist Physical Damage -- RctArm-ResDam:40(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(3), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(3), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(5), GldArm-3defTpProc:50(5), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(7)
Level 1: Jab -- SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprMghoft-Dmg/Rchg:50(7), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(9), SprMghoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(9), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(11), SprMghoft-Rchg/Res%:50(11)
Level 2: Temp Invulnerability -- UnbGrd-ResDam:50(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx:50(13), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam:50(13), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:50(15), UnbGrd-Max HP%:50(15)
Level 4: Haymaker -- SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprGntFis-Dmg/Rchg:50(19), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(21), SprGntFis-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(21), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(23), SprGntFis-Rchg/+Absorb:50(23)
Level 6: Dull Pain -- DctWnd-Heal/Rchg:50(A), NmnCnv-Heal/Rchg:50(50), Pnc-Heal/Rchg:50(50)
Level 8: Resist Elements -- RctArm-ResDam:40(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(25), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(25), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(27)
Level 10: Taunt -- PrfZng-Dam%:50(A)
Level 12: Unyielding -- UnbGrd-ResDam:50(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx:50(27), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam:50(29), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:50(29)
Level 14: Resist Energies -- RctArm-ResDam:40(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(31), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(31), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(31)
Level 16: Kick -- FrcFdb-Rechg%:50(A)
Level 18: Invincibility -- ShlWal-Def:50(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx:50(33), ShlWal-Def/Rchg:50(33), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(33), Rct-ResDam%:50(34)
Level 20: Knockout Blow -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx:50(34), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(34), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(36), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg:50(36), SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc:50(36)
Level 22: Tough -- ImpArm-ResPsi:40(A)
Level 24: Weave -- ShlWal-Def:50(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx:50(37), ShlWal-Def/Rchg:50(37), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(37)
Level 26: Tough Hide -- ShlWal-Def:50(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx:50(39), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(39), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP:50(39)
Level 28: Rage -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(40)
Level 30: Combat Jumping -- ShlWal-Def:50(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx:50(40), ShlWal-Def/Rchg:50(40), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(42)
Level 32: Super Jump -- WntGif-ResSlow:50(A)
Level 35: Hurl -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprWntBit-Dmg/Rchg:50(42), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(42), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(43), SprWntBit-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg:50(43), SprWntBit-Rchg/SlowProc:50(43)
Level 38: Foot Stomp -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx:50(45), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(45), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(45), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(46), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc:50(46)
Level 41: Char -- SprEnt-Acc/Hold:50(A), SprEnt-Hold/Rchg:50(46), SprEnt-End/Rchg:50(48), SprEnt-Acc/Hold/End:50(48), SprEnt-Acc/Hold/End/Rchg:50(48)
Level 44: Hasten -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(50)
Level 47: Hover -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+:50(A)
Level 49: Fly -- Frb-Stlth:50(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Flight-I:50(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End:50(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+:50(17), Mrc-Rcvry+:40(17)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I:50(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%:50(A), PrfShf-EndMod:50(19)
Level 50: Resilient Core Paragon
Level 0: Portal Jockey
Level 0: Task Force Commander
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
------------

 

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Hell, with Invuln, the entire Fighting pool is OPTIONAL

And Invuln is, generally this tough across MULTIPLE builds.  There's no One True Way to min-max it.

Sorry, but what you're saying about Invuln simply doesn't jive with reality.

[Xanatos]

  

51 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

There's a chart out there somewhere that shows it. Invulnerability is good against S/L (largely worthless due to the fact that you get +12% from ATO and +15% from Toughness) but poor against all other damage types. Its "heal" is actually a 360 sec recharge hp buff. It has no recharge, recovery, regeneration or +damage.

 

It just doesn't bring a whole lot to the table. It's fair-to-middling in terms of durability and it brings nothing else to the table besides merely being somewhat adequate at resist/defense. If you've got an Invulnerability build, it's nearly certain that you could swap out Invulnerability for another power set and you'd end up with a stronger build.

 

 

 

Mate you thought invulnerability didn't have a taunt aura. Please stop. You genuinely don't know what you're talking about.

 

42 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

If you're looking for a final build with maximum enhancement, and you're looking for maximum durability, look at Invuln.
It's, quite simply, the next best thing to a Stoner in Granite.  With none of Stone's downsides.
Other hybrid setups (WP, Shield, Dark) can get close.  But Invuln generally winds up on top of the pile.

 

I'd say Bio is #1 and Rad is #2 due to all the absorb. But it's all academic at the top end. In practice they're all equally unkillable.

 

Curious that you still rate stone, though. Figured that got left in the dirt with all the new IOs?

[marcussmythe]

1 hour ago, Hjarki said:

There's a chart out there somewhere that shows it. Invulnerability is good against S/L (largely worthless due to the fact that you get +12% from ATO and +15% from Toughness) but poor against all other damage types. Its "heal" is actually a 360 sec recharge hp buff. It has no recharge, recovery, regeneration or +damage.

 

It just doesn't bring a whole lot to the table. It's fair-to-middling in terms of durability and it brings nothing else to the table besides merely being somewhat adequate at resist/defense. If you've got an Invulnerability build, it's nearly certain that you could swap out Invulnerability for another power set and you'd end up with a stronger build.

 

 

*points to the suggestions board*  Either Bio/Rad need nerfing or Invuln needs buffing.  Get to it.  🙂

[drbuzzard]

46 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

Curious that you still rate stone, though. Figured that got left in the dirt with all the new IOs?

It's funny, a while back I decided I'd give stone another shot and made a stone/WM tank to see how it worked out. I wasn't PLing so into the sewers I went. Played for a while, then had a flashback to the last stone I played on live. I immediately deleted it since I absolutely abhor the stone penalties. Of course I was dumb and forgot I'd transferred 100M influence to the character. Derp. 

[marcussmythe]

IOs give with one hand and take with the other.  Ive seen an Stone/SS that uses high recharge from IOs to laugh at the minus regen, stacked rage to run a 3 minute pylon, and can thanks to runspeed buffs move faster than my sprint.

 

Now, that was an odd build that ignored almost all of actual Stone Armor and almost all of Superstrength, but its a thing.

 

RE Defense on Invuln - I can do softcap with one, 90% S/L/E (E is the hard part), or I can tank E Reist and Incarnate Softcap with one.  One thing Invuln has in common with Stone and SR is you have alot of build headroom to do other things, as your ‘tough enough for most anything’ on SOs.

[Omega-202]

7 minutes ago, marcussmythe said:

Now, that was an odd build that ignored almost all of actual Stone Armor and almost all of Superstrength, but its a thing.

To me, that's Stone's biggest selling point.  Granite lets you skip a lot of the rest of the set and still be unkillable.  You can use the extra power picks to make up for the slow and recharge penalties.

[SwitchFade]

Invuln can, and does, hit caps on defense and most resist built properly. On top of that, huge HP.

 

My invuln tank was built to exemp down to 12, and at lvl 15 and up retains 70+% resist to most and hits 35+ defense. At 15.

 

At 30+ when spamming attacks, it's 75-90 resist to everything and 45% defense, depending on ATO at 2 or 3 stacks. I've never found anything that can kill him, aside from Hami, and rarely have to use dull pain, HP doesn't budge.

 

Rad is great, but invuln can become redonk from lvl 15. At 50? Unkillable.

Edited July 19, 2020 by SwitchFade

[Hyperstrike]

2 hours ago, Xanatos said:

  

 

Mate you thought invulnerability didn't have a taunt aura. Please stop. You genuinely don't know what you're talking about.

 

 

I'd say Bio is #1 and Rad is #2 due to all the absorb. But it's all academic at the top end. In practice they're all equally unkillable.

 

Curious that you still rate stone, though. Figured that got left in the dirt with all the new IOs?

For kill speed?  Always has.

But we're not talking BRUTES here.  We're talking TANKS.  Primary focus is on maximum survivability.

Here's an indifferently slotted Stone/Stone.

Spoiler

 

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.7.2.10
https://github.com/Crytilis/mids-reborn-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Boulder Bouncer: Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Stone Armor
Secondary Power Set: Stone Melee
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Teleportation
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Rock Armor -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+:50(A), LucoftheG-Def:50(3), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP:50(3), Rct-ResDam%:50(5), GifoftheA-Run+:40(5)
Level 1: Stone Fist -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx:50(7), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(7), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(9), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg:50(9), SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc:50(11)
Level 2: Stone Skin -- UnbGrd-ResDam:50(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx:50(11), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam:50(13), ImpArm-ResDam:40(13), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(15), GldArm-3defTpProc:50(15)
Level 4: Heavy Mallet -- SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprGntFis-Dmg/Rchg:50(23), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(23), SprGntFis-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(25), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(25), SprGntFis-Rchg/+Absorb:50(27)
Level 6: Earth's Embrace -- ImpArm-ResPsi:40(A), DctWnd-Heal/Rchg:50(27), NmnCnv-Heal/Rchg:50(29)
Level 8: Mud Pots -- SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprMghoft-Dmg/Rchg:50(29), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(31), SprMghoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(31), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(31), SprMghoft-Rchg/Res%:50(33)
Level 10: Taunt -- PrfZng-Dam%:50(A)
Level 12: Rooted -- Pnc-Heal/EndRedux:50(A), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg:50(33), Pnc-Heal/Rchg:50(33), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg:50(34), Pnc-Heal:50(34)
Level 14: Brimstone Armor -- Ags-ResDam:50(A), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx:50(34), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:50(36), ImpArm-ResPsi:40(36)
Level 16: Build Up -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(36)
Level 18: Crystal Armor -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+:50(A), LucoftheG-Def:50(37), GifoftheA-Run+:40(37)
Level 20: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+:50(A), LucoftheG-Def:50(37), GifoftheA-Run+:40(39)
Level 22: Assault -- EndRdx-I:50(A)
Level 24: Teleport -- WntGif-ResSlow:50(A)
Level 26: Minerals -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+:50(A), LucoftheG-Def:50(39), GifoftheA-Run+:40(39)
Level 28: Tremor -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx:50(40), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(40), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(40), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(42), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc:50(42)
Level 30: Hasten -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(42)
Level 32: Granite Armor -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+:50(A), LucoftheG-Def:50(43), Ags-ResDam:50(43), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx:50(43), ImpArm-ResPsi:40(45), GifoftheA-Run+:40(45)
Level 35: Hurl Boulder -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprWntBit-Dmg/Rchg:50(45), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(46), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(46), SprWntBit-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg:50(46)
Level 38: Seismic Smash -- SprEnt-Acc/Hold:50(A), SprEnt-Hold/Rchg:50(48), SprEnt-End/Rchg:50(48), SprEnt-Acc/Hold/End:50(48), SprEnt-Acc/Hold/End/Rchg:50(50)
Level 41: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I:50(A)
Level 44: Physical Perfection -- PrfShf-EndMod:50(A), PrfShf-End%:50(50)
Level 47: Recall Friend -- IntRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(50)
Level 49: Teleport Foe -- Acc-I:50(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I:50(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End:50(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+:50(17), Mrc-Rcvry+:40(17)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I:50(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%:50(A), PrfShf-EndMod:50(19), EndMod-I:50(19), SynSck-EndMod/+RunSpeed:50(21), PwrTrns-+Heal:50(21)
Level 50: Spiritual Core Paragon
------------

 

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Edited July 19, 2020 by Hyperstrike

[Hyperstrike]

2 hours ago, Omega-202 said:

Please read the whole conversation before interjecting.

 

That part of the thread was talking about how Invuln is not great for Tanks, but is pretty good for the other ATs.  I fully have acknowledged that it's overkill on SL and lacks utility for Tanks, but for other ATs it provides more layered resist and defense than most other sets. 

Nah.  Invuln is pretty damn spectacular on Tanks too.

Does it help you kill faster?

No.  But that isn't the purpose of Tank anyhow.

[Hjarki]

4 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

Wow.  The most common damage.
But hey, having 90% Psi Resist and 2% S/L Resist would be REALLY useful leveing up.  Right?

Because it's the most common damage, it's also the type of damage that people don't need a Tanker for. No one needs a Tanker for Council. They need a Tanker for Carnival.

4 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

The way the game works, there's nothing inherently superior in the comparison between Typed vs Vectored Defense.  NOTHING.

Positional is absolutely better than Typed. There is no Typed defense against Toxic and soft-capping Psi is a challenge.

4 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

Why would Invuln need recharge boosts?  Most Tank armors don't offer them.

Most Tank armors offer some way of improving your offense. Invulnerability is basically the Empathy of armor sets - it's what a lot of people believe the set should be, but it doesn't match what's useful in game.

4 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

But you're essentially ALWAYS getting hit on a Resist build.  And various attacks may be carrying more than just Damage to you.
Having high Energy Resist doesn't make you immune to sapping attacks.

Having a high End Drain resist does, though. Nor are Resist builds "always getting hit". If you're willing to build for typed rather than positionals, it's pretty easy to soft-cap defenses even on pure resist Tankers with Winter sets.

 

4 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

Basically the way the math works out, in terms of Damage mitigation, Defense > Resist. 
But Defense + Resist > Defense > Resist.

You've got it backwards. Resist >> Defense.

 

First of all, there's the issue of variance. Defense builds are high variance while Resist builds are low variance. That means you get huge damage spikes on Defense that you wouldn't get on Resist.

 

Second of all, while Resist hard-cap is meaningful, Defense soft-cap is mainly something for Blasters and Defenders who don't have to take the focused attention of enemies. Consider your S/L defense. You think it means enemies have a 5% chance to hit you. In most cases, they'll have ~8.5% chance to hit you because most purely S/L attacks have heightened accuracy. Then there's content with enemies who have better +hit (Incarnate content, Lord Recluse) who cut through your basic defense soft-cap like it wasn't even there. There's no such thing as a 'cascading resist failure'. There is a 'cascading defense failure'.

 

Third, you can use your secondary for Defense but there's only one secondary that provides Resist (Staff) - and it's a very clunky mechanic. This is also another reason why typed defenses are problematic. Getting 50%+ Melee Defense from your secondary shreds any argument you might make about typed vs. positional.

 

I think the problem is that what you see as the 'use' for a Tanker is fundamentally incorrect. No one needs a Tanker if they're fight Council. Blasters and Defenders can charge those spawns and blow them up just fine. The value in a Tanker is with the 90% resist cap and broad array of unusual defenses for exceptionally hard opponents. Other than that, they're really just Scrappers.

Edited July 19, 2020 by Hjarki

[Omega-202]

14 hours ago, Hjarki said:

Invulnerability is what I'd call a 'weak' Tanker set. It has no taunt aura

 

10 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

You've got it backwards. Resist >> Defense.

 

...Yeah, I'm not sure we should be taking your feedback into consideration. 

[Xanatos]

 

1 hour ago, Hyperstrike said:

We're not talking BRUTES here.  We're talking TANKS.  Primary focus is on maximum survivability.

Here's an indifferently slotted Stone/Stone.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.7.2.10
https://github.com/Crytilis/mids-reborn-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Boulder Bouncer: Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Stone Armor
Secondary Power Set: Stone Melee
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Teleportation
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Rock Armor -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+:50(A), LucoftheG-Def:50(3), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP:50(3), Rct-ResDam%:50(5), GifoftheA-Run+:40(5)
Level 1: Stone Fist -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx:50(7), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(7), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(9), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg:50(9), SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc:50(11)
Level 2: Stone Skin -- UnbGrd-ResDam:50(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx:50(11), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam:50(13), ImpArm-ResDam:40(13), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(15), GldArm-3defTpProc:50(15)
Level 4: Heavy Mallet -- SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprGntFis-Dmg/Rchg:50(23), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(23), SprGntFis-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(25), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(25), SprGntFis-Rchg/+Absorb:50(27)
Level 6: Earth's Embrace -- ImpArm-ResPsi:40(A), DctWnd-Heal/Rchg:50(27), NmnCnv-Heal/Rchg:50(29)
Level 8: Mud Pots -- SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprMghoft-Dmg/Rchg:50(29), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(31), SprMghoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(31), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(31), SprMghoft-Rchg/Res%:50(33)
Level 10: Taunt -- PrfZng-Dam%:50(A)
Level 12: Rooted -- Pnc-Heal/EndRedux:50(A), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg:50(33), Pnc-Heal/Rchg:50(33), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg:50(34), Pnc-Heal:50(34)
Level 14: Brimstone Armor -- Ags-ResDam:50(A), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx:50(34), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:50(36), ImpArm-ResPsi:40(36)
Level 16: Build Up -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(36)
Level 18: Crystal Armor -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+:50(A), LucoftheG-Def:50(37), GifoftheA-Run+:40(37)
Level 20: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+:50(A), LucoftheG-Def:50(37), GifoftheA-Run+:40(39)
Level 22: Assault -- EndRdx-I:50(A)
Level 24: Teleport -- WntGif-ResSlow:50(A)
Level 26: Minerals -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+:50(A), LucoftheG-Def:50(39), GifoftheA-Run+:40(39)
Level 28: Tremor -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx:50(40), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(40), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(40), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(42), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc:50(42)
Level 30: Hasten -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(42)
Level 32: Granite Armor -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+:50(A), LucoftheG-Def:50(43), Ags-ResDam:50(43), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx:50(43), ImpArm-ResPsi:40(45), GifoftheA-Run+:40(45)
Level 35: Hurl Boulder -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprWntBit-Dmg/Rchg:50(45), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(46), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(46), SprWntBit-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg:50(46)
Level 38: Seismic Smash -- SprEnt-Acc/Hold:50(A), SprEnt-Hold/Rchg:50(48), SprEnt-End/Rchg:50(48), SprEnt-Acc/Hold/End:50(48), SprEnt-Acc/Hold/End/Rchg:50(50)
Level 41: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I:50(A)
Level 44: Physical Perfection -- PrfShf-EndMod:50(A), PrfShf-End%:50(50)
Level 47: Recall Friend -- IntRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(50)
Level 49: Teleport Foe -- Acc-I:50(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I:50(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End:50(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+:50(17), Mrc-Rcvry+:40(17)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I:50(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%:50(A), PrfShf-EndMod:50(19), EndMod-I:50(19), SynSck-EndMod/+RunSpeed:50(21), PwrTrns-+Heal:50(21)
Level 50: Spiritual Core Paragon
------------

 

| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer to view the build |
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Even with the p2W buffs and the 2m bonus from barrier, that stone only has 50.7% psi res. It's inferior to my Invuln tank, which has 90% psi res.

 

It's also inferior to well built Rads or Bios because their absorb:

 

• Makes them better at tanking untyped/unresistable damage from the likes of Tyrant and Hamidon.
• Makes them better at tanking -HP attacks, such as those given out by The Crimson Prototype.

 

(Those two reasons would also put rad and bios ahead of my invuln, too.)

 

IMO stone could do with a buff. Giving Minerals giving a decent chunk of psi res seems like the obvious answer.

 

 

 

[Hyperstrike]

2 hours ago, Hjarki said:

Because it's the most common damage, it's also the type of damage that people don't need a Tanker for. No one needs a Tanker for Council. They need a Tanker for Carnival.

 

I'm sorry, but you have some fundamental misconceptions about how Tanking works.

First off, nobody in this game "needs" a Tanker.

Second off, if it's the most common damage type, you definitely DO want a Tank who's essentially immune to it to be there soaking up the hits.
You don't simply Tank for Endgame.

 

2 hours ago, Hjarki said:

 

Positional is absolutely better than Typed.

 

You're also sporting misconceptions about how Defense works too.

Please explain, mathematically, HOW Vectored Defense is superior to Typed Defense.
 

2 hours ago, Hjarki said:

There is no Typed defense against Toxic and soft-capping Psi is a challenge.

 

Usually in maxing Typed/Vectored Defense, you also build fair quantities of the other form of Defense as well.
This will help cover you for things like Toxic and Psi if the numbers are larger than your Psi Defense.

Is it PERFECT coverage?  Nope.  But every set has weaknesses.  They're baked in quite deliberately.

In any case, unalloyed Tox/Psi damage are extremely rare.

 

2 hours ago, Hjarki said:

Most Tank armors offer some way of improving your offense. Invulnerability is basically the Empathy of armor sets - it's what a lot of people believe the set should be, but it doesn't match what's useful in game.

 

You're basically saying there's no Damage Aura.  Not every set does.  It doesn't make them "inferior".

 

2 hours ago, Hjarki said:

Having a high End Drain resist does, though. Nor are Resist builds "always getting hit". If you're willing to build for typed rather than positionals, it's pretty easy to soft-cap defenses even on pure resist Tankers with Winter sets.

 

End
Drain
Resistance

E/N Resist is not resistance to sapping.

 

2 hours ago, Hjarki said:

You've got it backwards. Resist >> Defense.

 

Sorry, but Arcanaville debunked this years ago on line.

 

2 hours ago, Hjarki said:

First of all, there's the issue of variance. Defense builds are high variance while Resist builds are low variance. That means you get huge damage spikes on Defense that you wouldn't get on Resist.

 

For a blaster, it's an issue.

For a Tank, it's a non-ssue.

 

2 hours ago, Hjarki said:

Second of all, while Resist hard-cap is meaningful, Defense soft-cap is mainly something for Blasters and Defenders who don't have to take the focused attention of enemies. Consider your S/L defense. You think it means enemies have a 5% chance to hit you. In most cases, they'll have ~8.5% chance to hit you because most purely S/L attacks have heightened accuracy. Then there's content with enemies who have better +hit (Incarnate content, Lord Recluse) who cut through your basic defense soft-cap like it wasn't even there. There's no such thing as a 'cascading resist failure'. There is a 'cascading defense failure'.

 

You're still talking about Blasters and Defenders.
Tanks with actual Defense powers in their primary ALSO have Defense Debuff Resistance.
Sure, for your Fire/Elec/Rad Tank, Defense is only EVER sacrificial.
Not so with Hybrid and Defense-based armor sets.

 

2 hours ago, Hjarki said:

Third, you can use your secondary for Defense but there's only one secondary that provides Resist (Staff) - and it's a very clunky mechanic. This is also another reason why typed defenses are problematic. Getting 50%+ Melee Defense from your secondary shreds any argument you might make about typed vs. positional.

 

Please tell me you're not serious.
PLEASE tell me you're NOT serious!

You're trying to say that, because certain Attack sets have powers that augment Res/Def in ways that don't mesh with Typed Def, Typed Def is useless?

Broadsword improves both Melee and Lethal.  As does Divine Avalanche.


 

 

2 hours ago, Hjarki said:

I think the problem is that what you see as the 'use' for a Tanker is fundamentally incorrect.

Sorry, but with the amount of false, erroneous information you've put out in this thread alone, the understandings lie a lot closer to home....

[Hyperstrike]

2 hours ago, Xanatos said:

Even with the p2W buffs and the 2m bonus from barrier, that stone only has 50.7% psi res. It's inferior to my Invuln tank, which has 90% psi res.

 

It's also inferior to well built Rads or Bios because their absorb:

• Makes them better at tanking untyped/unresistable damage from the likes of Tyrant and Hamidon.
• Makes them better at tanking -HP attacks, such as those given out by The Crimson Prototype.

 

(Those two reasons would also put rad and bios ahead of my invuln, too.)

 

IMO stone could do with a buff. Giving Minerals giving a decent chunk of psi res seems like the obvious answer.

Can I see this build of yours again?
I want to see how you're acquiring these myriad 90% Resists.

Are we talking steady-state 90% all the time?
Or are we talking clickie powers (Rune of Protection, Unstoppable, Melee Core, etc) ?

[Hjarki]

• Almost all Tankers have extremely high S/L resist because Toughness and all that S/L Resist from ATO makes it possible. Specializing in S/L Resist is largely superfluous for Tankers.
• Positional Defense is superior to Typed Defense because it can be used against Toxic/Psi. It also works better with melee set defense buffs, which only boost half of one typed category but all of one positional category. And, yes, synergy between your two sets does matter.
• Defense Debuff Resistance only slows the rate of the cascading defense failure slightly. Merely soft-capped defenses with a dribble of DDR isn't all that much better than not having DDR in the first place - you're far better having excess defense to simply soak the -def before it starts the failure. Moreover, to back that up, you really want resists/heals so you can still function getting hit 95% of the time. About the only set that has 'sufficient' DDR to casually ignore the issue would be Super Reflexes.
• I have no idea what you're going on with in terms of E/N Resist vs. End Drain Resist. I never claimed they were the same thing - I pointed out that being highly resistant to both the damage and the debuffs carried by certain forms of attack effectively negated the attack. Since we're talking about a set (Radiation) that has both, I'm not sure where your confusion lies.
• I'm not sure where the 'sacrificial' notion comes from. The fact is that soft-cap Defense is not the absolute hard-cap resist is. That 45% defense you're so proud of immediately drops to 15% against Lord Recluse. It drops to 31% against Incarnate content. Its effectiveness against weapons is normally less because those attacks carry accuracy with them. Moreover, you're almost certain to get bonuses to defense from teammates while resist bonuses are far less frequent.
• Features like endurance management, healing, recharge reduction and additional damage are what really make armor sets shine. Simply being tough is the bare minimum for a Tanker. If it's easily achievable with sets that also have the additional features I listed, why would you choose to play a set that's no tougher but lacks those features?

 

It seems like people have some sort of emotional attachment to Invulnerability. Which is fine. Play what you want to play. But Invulnerability is a weak set compared to the many other options, offering nothing particularly special you can't get elsewhere.

[Bill Z Bubba]

So..... SR wins. yay!

[Xanatos]

On 7/19/2020 at 5:34 AM, Hjarki said:

Invulnerability is what I'd call a 'weak' Tanker set. It has no taunt aura

 

 

 

16 hours ago, Hjarki said:

Invulnerability has minimal healing.

 

 

16 hours ago, Hjarki said:

Invulnerability is weak to everything except S/L.

 

 

(No rune, no P2W buffs, no base buffs, no kinetic dampener. no melee core.)

 

16 hours ago, Hjarki said:

[more lies]

 

Edited July 20, 2020 by Xanatos

[Hyperstrike]

7 hours ago, Hjarki said:

• Almost all Tankers have extremely high S/L resist because Toughness and all that S/L Resist from ATO makes it possible. Specializing in S/L Resist is largely superfluous for Tankers.
• Positional Defense is superior to Typed Defense because it can be used against Toxic/Psi. It also works better with melee set defense buffs, which only boost half of one typed category but all of one positional category. And, yes, synergy between your two sets does matter.
• Defense Debuff Resistance only slows the rate of the cascading defense failure slightly. Merely soft-capped defenses with a dribble of DDR isn't all that much better than not having DDR in the first place - you're far better having excess defense to simply soak the -def before it starts the failure. Moreover, to back that up, you really want resists/heals so you can still function getting hit 95% of the time. About the only set that has 'sufficient' DDR to casually ignore the issue would be Super Reflexes.
• I have no idea what you're going on with in terms of E/N Resist vs. End Drain Resist. I never claimed they were the same thing - I pointed out that being highly resistant to both the damage and the debuffs carried by certain forms of attack effectively negated the attack. Since we're talking about a set (Radiation) that has both, I'm not sure where your confusion lies.
• I'm not sure where the 'sacrificial' notion comes from. The fact is that soft-cap Defense is not the absolute hard-cap resist is. That 45% defense you're so proud of immediately drops to 15% against Lord Recluse. It drops to 31% against Incarnate content. Its effectiveness against weapons is normally less because those attacks carry accuracy with them. Moreover, you're almost certain to get bonuses to defense from teammates while resist bonuses are far less frequent.
• Features like endurance management, healing, recharge reduction and additional damage are what really make armor sets shine. Simply being tough is the bare minimum for a Tanker. If it's easily achievable with sets that also have the additional features I listed, why would you choose to play a set that's no tougher but lacks those features?

 

It seems like people have some sort of emotional attachment to Invulnerability. Which is fine. Play what you want to play. But Invulnerability is a weak set compared to the many other options, offering nothing particularly special you can't get elsewhere.

1: Because, in the game, you see LARGE QUANTITIES of S/L damage incoming, even in rarefied situations.  So having maximal protection is better than eggshelling.

2: Okay, even after explaining why what you're talking about is irrelevant due to the way Typed and Vectored Defense interact, you keep insisting you're right.  I'm not wasting any further breath to sway the willfully ignorant.

3: Depends on how much DDR you have.  Go ahead, stick an optioned-out SR Tank up against +4x8 Cimerorans and see how little their Defenses actually fluctuate.

4: Please point out where in Mids "End Drain Resist" is indicated.

5: Sacrificial.  As in you have a DDR-less Tank with a slathering of Defense.  Defense Debuff comes in and with a hit, the maximum amounts of Defense "go away".  It's a short term ablative shield.  This is why compromising a Resist-based build to layer on massive Defense is a Dumb Idea.

6: Invuln isn't merely "tough enough".

Okay, okay.  You hate Invuln for some weird reason.  Fine.  Just stop with the misinformation.

[Parabola]

1 hour ago, Xanatos said:

No rune, no P2W buffs, no base buffs, no kinetic dampener. no melee core.

Barrier? Very impressive though, I'd be interested in seeing that build?

[Parabola]

I think the problem with defence as a whole is while it probably outperforms resistance for 99% of the game, sooner or later you come across something that ignores it completely. That can be either autohit damage or enemies that have insane levels of tohit. Cascading defence failure is certainly a thing but it's far from the only way a defence build can run into trouble.

 

As I recently posted in another thread I've learned this the hard way. I took my main, a pretty heavily tricked out ss/ea brute who has way over softcap s/l/e/n/f/c and about 50% res to everything but toxic, into a shadow shard tf at 4/8. I'd got used to being basically immortal as long as I paid passing attention during the rage crashes but the rularuu absolutely destroyed him. Tore him to pieces. Energise couldn't keep up with the damage in any way, even barrier was of limited use.

 

This has led me to the conclusion that solid resists backed by healing/absorb options are pretty much the only way to go for that 1% of content. I'm doing quite a bit of testing at the minute to try to find my ultimate solo melee character. This takes it slightly outside this tanker discussion as damage output is a serious consideration but actually a bio/mace tank is one of my frontrunners so far.

 

I'm willing to accept being a bit below par for much of the easier content if it gives me a fighting chance in the cheaty hard stuff. My limited skills may prove to be an insurmountable barrier though!