Primaries Optimized for Stalkers

[Gulbasaur]

On 7/27/2020 at 12:45 AM, 11Troy11 said:

Lastly, do you have any issues with damage considering how much smashing is supposed to be resisted?

The difference is a lot less than people think, over all. Occasionally, you've have to throw in an extra attack or retarget and take them down with your next AoE. It's not like you're coming up against enemies with 90% resists every other mission.

[MoisesG]

On 7/26/2020 at 9:57 PM, Omega-202 said:

I think that both have their merits, and we can all just agree that Regen sucks and also needs to be nerfed again.

That made me LOL 🙂

[Omega-202]

13 hours ago, Hjarki said:

The generic Stalker is essentially worthless on every fight until that final AV/GM.

God, you just can't stop being wrong, can you?  Every thread.  

 

So lets ignore the fact that there are solid, to very good AoE builds on Stalkers (Electric, Spines, Claws), or that there's solid options in the APPs and PPPs for extra AoE (Fireball, Ball Lightning).  Hell, my Stalkers has 4 AoEs and can nuke down a full 54 spawn to just bosses and badly hurt Lts in 3 clicks.  

 

Let's instead refute your point by looking at what the current endgame is made of: 

 

- ITF : Mission 1 is AoE heavy, so not great for Stalkers.  Mission 2 is great for Stalkers, burn down the crystals and let the team handle the adds; if you're speed running, screw the adds, just hit the crystal and bail.  Mission 3, the EB generals are single target objectives and there's just the two that you need to clear the spawn for; computer>single target; 2 AVs>single target, you dont need to kill anything else, Judgements mop up adds.  Final mission is just a single target AV fight and a victory lap mop up.  Stalkers are great in all but the first, easiest mission.

 

-Tin Mage: Mission 1 is War Walkers and Director 11, all single targets, everything else is ignorable.  Mission 2 is a mop up of Warworks, Stalkers are useful for finishing off the super tough Victorias that will not be AoEd to death; end of Mission 2 is Super WarWalker single target, the courtyard adds always get nuked by 3 Ions that inevitably get fired at once. Final mission: Neuron, Bobcat, 2 super Walkers, all single target AVs. 

 

-Apex: Mission 1, street sweep isn't great for Stalkers, but the Pylons are single target objectives and the adds are always ignored and the police station fight is mostly burning EB walkers.  Battle Maiden isn't ideal for any melee ATs, but Stalkers do better than most because they can burn her down faster than Scappers or Brutes due to their burst damage.  

 

-Liberty and Recluse TFs: AVs, AVs, more AVs and some more AVs.  

 

-Basically all of the Incarnate trials are AV and single target heavy.  Sure Stalkers are pretty terrible at certain parts (tower defense portion of hospital), but ever AT is bad at something.  

 

I can keep going, but suffice to say, you are wrong yet again on basic gameplay principles.  Tell us again how Invulnerability on Tanks doesn't have a taunt aura.  

Edited July 31, 2020 by Omega-202

[Hjarki]

11 hours ago, Saikochoro said:

In fact, I find that most of the group uses their nuke or AoE and then immediately moves on to the next mob leaving the bosses and a few lieutenants behind as they don’t want to deal with them. Stalkers will kill these faster than anything except perhaps a blaster, but usually the blaster is already at the next mob waiting for it’s nuke to go on cooldown. 
 

Lastly, a lot of the game does revolve around killing EBs, AVs, and GMs. Stalkers are fantastic for these fights. 
 

I think most people are so focused on chasing AoE that when they do decide to fight the boss themselves they are unsatisfied with how much longer it takes to kill than nuking 8 minions. That’s why they leave it behind for others to fight.  Stalkers do single target best, and it is honestly an important role that a lot of people choose to ignore. 

I think Masterminds are probably the best 'Straggler killers'. However, Blasters, Corruptors and Dominators are all strong choices because they've got ranged attacks so they don't need to bother chasing enemies all over the place like Stalkers. My observation is that having effective ranged attacks on Stalkers eliminates most of that wasted time running around. Likewise, having AE attacks that can be used over a wide area rather than the Stalker's immediate vicinity means that they can hit a bunch of lieutenants/bosses at once for more than they could do with the same amount of time spent on single target attacks.

 

In terms of EB/AV/GM, most of the fight is actually solving the problem of not dying. Once you've solved that problem, you need a fairly low amount of dps to beat their regen and you'll win. The speed at which you win is generally irrelevant because the time spent fighting those EB/AV/GM is a tiny fraction of the time you spent chewing through endless trash on the way to them. Even then, the disparity between Stalker and another dps AT is almost meaningless compared to what your support AT bring to the table when you're talking about that final fight where the entire team/league is focused on a single target. A team of the right 8 Defenders will shred an EB/AV/GM faster than any set of 8 Stalkers/Blasters/Scrappers you can muster.

 

[Omega-202]

1 hour ago, Hjarki said:

The speed at which you win is generally irrelevant because the time spent fighting those EB/AV/GM is a tiny fraction of the time you spent chewing through endless trash on the way to them. 

 

Please list endgame scenarios where this is true.  I listed the most commonly run endgame content and outlined that a solid amount of it is pretty evenly split between single target burns and trash clearing.  

[Hjarki]

17 hours ago, Omega-202 said:

God, you just can't stop being wrong, can you?  Every thread.  

A good rule of thumb is when you see people start throwing around insults rather than engaging in reasonable debate, it's because they've realized they can't win on the merits of this argument. I think most reasonable people who look over the threads you've contributed to, keeping this rule in mind, will understand precisely where you're coming from.

[Omega-202]

8 hours ago, Hjarki said:

A good rule of thumb is when you see people start throwing around insults rather than engaging in reasonable debate, it's because they've realized they can't win on the merits of this argument. I think most reasonable people who look over the threads you've contributed to, keeping this rule in mind, will understand precisely where you're coming from.

Most reasonable people disagree with you on the basic facts.  The whole Tank thread has basically shown you lost that argument and you're wrong here as well.    

 

Refute my points.  I have provided evidence that you are wrong about the uselessness of single-target focused Stalkers, and instead of refuting them, you have decided to just stomp off because I pointed out that you are constantly wrong?  

[Coyote]

I'm not sure I understand the argument that a Stalker must be AoE OR single-target.

All Stalkers are capable at single-target due to AS plus a fast heavy hitter, hopefully from Hidden status.

 

Not all Stalker builds are capable of good AoE, but there are a lot of sets and combinations that can pull out AoE that is very useful on teams. If you leverage PBAoE powers from a secondary that do a bit of damage (/Rad, /Bio), Shield, Fire, or mix any non-damaging secondary with a higher damage primary, and add in an APP, you can open every spawn with over 600 AoE damage. Heck, I have Stalker builds with close to 1000 AoE damage up for every spawn.

 

If you're making a Stalker who is ONLY single-target focused, then you are choosing to play a single target attacker, and that is fine with you. So you should be okay with only attacking LTs and above on teams. But if this is not fine with you, there are plenty of other build options, and you can make a Stalker who is not limited in target options although it does mean there is some limitation on powersets.

[Omega-202]

1 hour ago, Coyote said:

I'm not sure I understand the argument that a Stalker must be AoE OR single-target.

Agreed.  Most Stalkers can be both.  The point was to refute the idea that "single target leaning Stalkers are only useful in AV fights and useless in all the trash leading to it".  

[JnEricsonx]

On 7/26/2020 at 7:22 PM, 11Troy11 said:

A couple of people have advised me to not use Ninja Blade for my stalker because it loses an important power. That made me wonder if there are any primaries that are better than others in terms of being suited to a stalker.

 

Any ideas?

My original Stalker was Nin/Nin.  I remade him on HC....haven't had any gripes playing.

[FUBARczar]

I have had / have a large number of Stalkers on live and HC.  

 

As for primaries optimized for Stalkers, idk if there are any optimized, but there are some that may be better version on Stalkers than Scrappers for comparison's sake.

 

Better: Electrical, Kinetic, and Savage

 

Better depending on preferences: Dark, Ice, Fire, and Staff

 

Missing something but still really strong: Psi, Street Justice, and Radiation 

Edited August 15, 2020 by FUBARczar

[FUBARczar]

On 7/27/2020 at 2:45 AM, 11Troy11 said:

Secondly, I know resistance-based sets are somewhat frowned upon for stalkers,

just by people who don't know how to pair the right primaries, or build resist sets properly.  IMO Resist sets on high-end builds are better then Defense sets.  

Edited August 15, 2020 by FUBARczar
typo

[Sovera]

On 7/31/2020 at 12:25 AM, Hjarki said:

I think this is one of the problems I have with Stalker that others either (a) have yet to fully recognize or (b) don't care about.

 

The generic Stalker is essentially worthless on every fight until that final AV/GM. Tankers and Brutes do useful AE because they're the center of the battle. They've got taunt auras and can nicely compress spawns around themselves. But our generic Stalker isn't the center of the battle - his friend the Tanker/Brute is. Even if he's tough enough to do the 'tanking' thing, he doesn't have the taunt to keep those spawns on him. That leaves him trying to pick off individual targets. But Blast sets are significantly better at that task because you don't need to be constantly chasing enemies.

 

That's why I mentioned Claws earlier. It's a relatively good "fight an AV/GM" set with standard Assassiante and a slow/heavy single target attack to exploit Hide. But it's also got one of the best Ranged attacks available to Stalkers plus a fast-activating massive radius/arc KB Cone so you can operate in 'Blaster mode' in a team setting where you're not the center of attention for the mobs.

 

In some sort of Platonic Ideal of a Stalker, I get the notion that you're a single target guy. But so much of the game isn't single target - or involves non-melee single target - that going with this notion of a Stalker tends to lead to a hero/villain who just isn't very useful most of the time.

 

Worthless is a strong word. The sets with no AoE have indeed no place in CoH. But those are sets and not the whole AT.

 

More to the point a Blaster (or anyone with Judgement) nukes a spawn. Now only the bosses and lieutenants are alive. ST is needed, not more AoE. Just pick a set that has decent AoE and we can help during AoE moments.

 

I mean, we are poopooing on AoE but my KM felt godly. Follow the tank as it gathers agro, go shhhh, we are hunting wabbits. Tanker has a nice ball of mobs, hit BU, use Burst from out of Hide. Auto-crit that kills most minions. Use filler attacks but not AS. When Burst is about to recharge use AS. If it's the first of the fight there is a good chance Hide procced. Use Burst again. Boom, another auto-crit AoE.

 

I felt useful all the way with my KM, and with /Bio and 3-4 damage procs in each attack it was a fast attacking machine. it didn't have great pylon times (2.30-ish) but it was fun.

 

Ultimately the reason I don't stick with Stalkers is that I really dislike not having agro. I love being in a big ball of enemies all hating me while I lay the hurt.

[MTeague]

Still very happy with my Spines / Regen stalker. 

I will admit, I do /pout sometimes that I don't actually get Quick Recovery as a stalker.

 

But he's an absolute beast for single target or AE. I have zero hesitation zooming ahead of the tank and opening up on a pile of mobs with BU/Throw Spines / Ripper / tab and AS something / maybe a couple single target stabs and repeat. The toxic is very nice even if it's just the dot part of the damage.  In the mid-30's I have no hesitation acting as team tank if we don't happen to have a real tank.  I know I'll end every fight at max health and endurance anyway, and i've done some serious goal-line stands with him when the rest of the team has wiped.

 

Lvls 11-20 got a little rough when the slotting just wasn't there quite yet, but he's matured quite well.

 

[Haijinx]

Even ST only Stalkers aren't worthless.  

 

My MA Stalker kills bosses like nobody's business exemped to any level.   

 

You end up hunting bosses though.  Finishing them off for anyone stuck fighting them who isn't as ST awesome as you are.  Which is basically everyone. 

 

My STJ Stalker just outclasses the MA in real COH fighting though (past the early levels anyway, hard to beat Storm Kick, Crane Kick and Cobra Strike by level 8).  Since then I can just run ahead and solo while the team is deciding what costume to wear or whatever it is people who sit at the entrance do.