Remove the perma ambush aggro from Defend the Midnight Mansion

[Greycat]

8 minutes ago, MTeague said:

This is true, but, each time you're put into a fresh cell with a new cell door to beat down. That gives you time to put your toggles on, to re-summon your pets. etc.

Unless of course, you die so many times that you run out of cell doors. (so, 9 times?)

Or you're on a team.

 

Plus, especially at lower levels, you've been spending time beating on that stupid door, so if you're not expecting it, you now face an ambush with little to no end...

 

(Again... "this is why I usually solo these." 🙂  Rarely die solo, since the mob sizes aren't overwhelming if someone goofs up.)

[AerialAssault]

The key difference is that Mayhem missions have a time limit, so eventually you'll be put out of your misery.

 

This is the point of contention with regards to this mission.

 

Spawn camping the players is a failure of games design. As a games designer, you want the flow of play to be continuous. If you're holding the players head underwater and saying that the only winning move is not to play, you've failed at your job.

 

I don't know many games, even ones designed to be difficult, which will knowingly trap players in a loop they can only escape by turning the game off.

 

Bad 

Games

Design

Edited August 6, 2020 by AerialAssault

[ShardWarrior]

15 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

What does that have to do with anything, missions are allowed to have unique challenges. That is part of this mishes design and fits thematically based on the story.

If poorly designed maps constitute a "unique challenge" and "fits thematically", then I do not know what to tell you.  There is such a thing as bad design.

[ShardWarrior]

12 hours ago, Greycat said:

I want to say that can happen in bank missions, since you don't go to the hospital, you go to the police station - which is not protected against this. (Part of why I rarely pug bank missions.)

Bank missions will have NPCs protecting the spawn point though.  Granted, they can be defeated as well, but you have at least some assistance.

[Galaxy Brain]

On the note of Mayhem missions, you have to mess up a LOT to get anywhere near the trouble this mission can give you. Being in the cell lets you res and ready up, spawning in the corner of the house with enemies already on you does not. 

[Leo_G]

10 hours ago, AerialAssault said:

The key difference is that Mayhem missions have a time limit, so eventually you'll be put out of your misery.

 

This is the point of contention with regards to this mission.

 

Spawn camping the players is a failure of games design. As a games designer, you want the flow of play to be continuous. If you're holding the players head underwater and saying that the only winning move is not to play, you've failed at your job.

 

I don't know many games, even ones designed to be difficult, which will knowingly trap players in a loop they can only escape by turning the game off.

 

Bad 

Games

Design

Can't argue there. Seems to be exactly what happened to me. I'm sure I could devised a way to counter this either with planning or possibly Brute force or even just asking for help. 

 

Either or, it did feel wrong that the spawn point and their aggro were in the same spot. The easiest fix would just be putting the respawn inside the mansion and barring floors from entering. 

[Greycat]

4 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

Bank missions will have NPCs protecting the spawn point though.  Granted, they can be defeated as well, but you have at least some assistance.

The spawn point, yes. In a mayhem mission, however, you get respawned in jail - which does not.

 

Safeguards, you don't get ambushes anyway. So NPCs at the spawn point are fairly moot.

[ShardWarrior]

3 minutes ago, Greycat said:

The spawn point, yes. In a mayhem mission, however, you get respawned in jail - which does not.

With the jail cell, you are still able to collect yourself and re-toggle. 

[Patti]

Also in mayhem there are 8 or 10 respawning points and an elevator right there.   Breaking line of sight is much easier and then making a break for the elevator really helps.   Nothing quite like that on the midnight mansion.

[Greycat]

4 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

With the jail cell, you are still able to collect yourself and re-toggle. 

1. Yes, however especially at lower levels you're burning time, END, etc. breaking down the door - at which time you're attacked by the ambush.

2. Depending on the team and how it's been going, you may have *several* ambushes sitting there weaiting for you, and toggles generally won't help.

3 ... especially if this isn't the first trip and you get into a cell with the door already broken. Which means, no, you don't get time to "collect yourself and retoggle."

 

Which has been mentioned before in this thread.

3 minutes ago, Patti said:

Also in mayhem there are 8 or 10 respawning points and an elevator right there.   Breaking line of sight is much easier and then making a break for the elevator really helps.   Nothing quite like that on the midnight mansion.

Know what else can be right there? The ambush. 🙂

 

Granted, these happen in teams that have quite a few things not go right - and my general way of dealing with it *is* to just solo them, but yes, I've been in this exact situation more than once. I'm not theorycrafting that "this could happen."

Edited August 6, 2020 by Greycat

[ShardWarrior]

10 minutes ago, Greycat said:

1. Yes, however especially at lower levels you're burning time, END, etc. breaking down the door - at which time you're attacked by the ambush.

That is a far cry from being insta-killed as is with the mission in question.

[Greycat]

2 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

That is a far cry from being insta-killed as is with the mission in question.

You're willfully ignoring the other things mentioned frequently throughout this thread, and even in my own post.

[ShardWarrior]

2 minutes ago, Greycat said:

You're willfully ignoring the other things mentioned frequently throughout this thread, and even in my own post.

Well no, I am not.  There is a big difference between being insta-killed upon rezzing versus rezzing in a jail cell in relative safety. 

[Coyotedancer]

The jail cell does give you a little more lead time... at least as long as the door is intact. 

[Greycat]

11 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Well no, I am not.  There is a big difference between being insta-killed upon rezzing versus rezzing in a jail cell in relative safety. 

Read. The. Rest. Of. The. Post. Which describes where rezzing in a jail cell does *not* equate to 'relative safety.'

Hint: The most relevant point has a "3" in front of it. Though 2 is also worth considering.

 

Regardless, this is another point where depending on what's going on ("triggering alarms in the pawn shop" plus "someone ran back and triggered more longbow ambushes" is rather a perfect storm, especially on a low to mid level, mid to large team) yes, you will get killed and have ambushes sitting there while you rez.

 

Having the ambushes not lock on to you there (say, until you reenter the pawn shop, or at least wait until you're out of the PPD station to lock back on) would be a huge improvement.

Edited August 6, 2020 by Greycat

[ShardWarrior]

Just now, Greycat said:

Read. The. Rest. Of. The. Post. Which describes where rezzing in a jail cell does *not* equate to 'relative safety.'

I did read it, thanks.

[Greycat]

Just now, ShardWarrior said:

I did read it, thanks.

Your replies indicate otherwise. Even Coyotedancer basically reiterated the relevant point.

 

[Galaxy Brain]

Just now, Greycat said:

Read. The. Rest. Of. The. Post. Which describes where rezzing in a jail cell does *not* equate to 'relative safety.'

Hint: The most relevant point has a "3" in front of it. Though 2 is also worth considering.

 

Regardless, this is another point where depending on what's going on ("triggering alarms in the pawn shop" plus "someone ran back and triggered more longbow ambushes" is rather a perfect storm, especially on a low to mid level, mid to large team) yes, you will get killed and have ambushes sitting there while you rez.

 

Having the ambushes not lock on to you there (say, until you reenter the pawn shop, or at least wait until you're out of the PPD station to lock back on) would be a huge improvement.

The bigger difference here is that there is a door separating you from the enemy for at least 8 or so deaths that afford you time to actually get up and recuperate. Even without the jail door there, the room is far more secluded in terms of what can engage with you compared to the corner of the mansion and allows you to use LoS, etc, to give yourself a chance. Let alone using Inspirations / etc.

 

The mansion gives you NO such chances once you get stuck there.

[Greycat]

Well, at least *1* death - you *can* rez right in the same cell the first death broke out of, should the RNG hate you.

 

And yes, I agree the mansion doesn't. My point is that yes, if we're looking at bad design, there's another place that you can get into this same sort of bad ambush situation. (Hell, this is the same situation that contributed to me not playing Guild Wars - where you get killed and the thing that killed you can stand *right on top* of the rez station. At least here we don't get death debuffs making it even harder to kill them.)

[ShardWarrior]

10 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Your replies indicate otherwise. Even Coyotedancer basically reiterated the relevant point.

You are free to believe that if you like.

[Greycat]

1 minute ago, ShardWarrior said:

You are free to believe that if you like.

I'm going by evidence.

[ShardWarrior]

1 minute ago, Greycat said:

I'm going by evidence.

As am I. 

[AerialAssault]

The thing with the ambushes in Mayhem missions is that they are semi-controllable by the players. Longbow/PPD ambushes do spawn periodically as a "Hurry the F up!" mechanic, however they also spawn whenever a side mission is completed or in progress (or both). Smashing up objects and beating up the PPD stood around can also spawn additional ambushes. If a team is spread out completing multiple side missions and causing mayhem in separate areas, they're probably going to be overwhelmed. When they're in jail they get a minute or two before the horde is upon them, which is more than can be said for this mission. 

 

I've been in these situations before on Mayhem missions, but the key here is that we genuinely messed up big time by taking on more than we could handle. We were able to complete the mission with scant seconds remaining, but that situation was one of our own flawed design. And if we had ran out of time, guess what would happen? It certainly wouldn't have been "Get Spawn Camped Until You Log Out".

My point is, with Mayhem missions and Cascading Ambush Failure, it is almost always down to the players deliberately biting off more than they can chew. With this mission, if victory is not guaranteed then we must accept that players can fail at a key juncture in circumstances beyond their control. Remember, it is possible to do everything right and still fail. Maybe an enemy gets a lucky hit in that causes a defence crash, or the support is Held at an inopportune time. The Controller could miss half a mob with their AoE CC, and get flattened as a result. The actions of players may tip the advantage in one way or another, but they are not responsible for the challenges that the mission has set before them (beyond their own difficult settings, but let's be real, even at -1, you aren't getting out of that hospital if you have 3-7 mobs on top of you when you spawn). By contrast, if you go around tagging every secondary objective in a Mayhem mission, you cannot be surprised when a regiment of Longbow descend upon you to kick your ass. If you don't want that to happen .. don't do it.

 

 

[Puma]

On 8/4/2020 at 12:18 PM, Onemantankwall said:

Lets run 1 of the most brutal arcs in the game with under geared under leveled squishies with no tank or heals on a difficulty you know you cant handle and cry and scream when it destroys you wanting it to be nerfed in some way when its a completely O P I T I O N A L arc to run with the ability to auto complete abandon or never even have to pick up the mission.

"Let's run an arc at the level it's opened to my toon, so balanced around that level and my gear level,  in a game that doesn't require specific archetypes, and be bothered when it's designed in a way that, once you die, basically becomes an endless loop of death forcing you to quit."

 

There. Fixed it for you. 

By the way, EVERY SINGLE ARC in this game is optional.  There is literally not one single arc you're required to do. That doesn't mean we shouldn't address issues where arcs are broken. 

Edited August 7, 2020 by Puma

[Puma]

2 minutes ago, Onemantankwall said:

For something being flat out impossible and broken it sure does get ran and completed ALOT. Go into something you can't handle with a high enough diff you get whats coming to you. Cant steamroll win em all kiddo but you do get debt badges as participantation so least theres that. 

 

P.s. if ever wanna be carried through the arc join 1 of my pugs for it on excel i run it on all my chars which is often thx to huge case of altitist.

 

Learn to read before spewing into text whatever comes to your mind and ud learn its not a broke arc or even mish its nearly all ai ambushs target locking that the OP wants changed

Because it can result in an unwinnable, and not even EXITABLE, situation outside of logging out of the game completely.

Which is, by definition, broken.  Does that mean it can NEVER be completed? No. But there can be an instance where you can become "stuck" and unable to do anything but log out.  

Which means it's broken in those conditions.  This is basic game terminology and situations, not some crazy idea. 

If a map had a specific spot that, if you stepped in it running super speed, you "fell" below the map and could no longer complete any of the objectives, it would equally be broken.  To say "well just dont walk on that part of the map with SS and you're fine" or "Ive completed it hundreds of times and never had that happen" doesn't change the fact that this is likely a glitch that isn't WAI and should be fixed.