Remove the perma ambush aggro from Defend the Midnight Mansion

[Onemantankwall]

I'd suggeest a new thread with a list of known ambush mishs that have the lock on effect so they can be looked at, IF the devs even want to take the time to adjust such a thing anyway. What people can do player wise, as I usually do as a lead, everyone should warn people of nightward's challenges and adjust difficulty accordingly. I run pugs through it 100% expecting to die multiple times if done pre50  its a next challenge level arc. its abit smoother if you wait till 50 to do it with incarnates tho

[Myrmidon]

On 8/3/2020 at 1:32 PM, MTeague said:

You're assuming the NCSoft designers were not sadists .... 😉

 

 

This was my first MMO ever and the first character was a Dark/Dark Scrapper. I am certain that the early designers were sadists.😂

[Sakura Tenshi]

To be honest, I wouldn't mind it if a team wipe was a 'mission fail' that forced restarted the mission (as that would basically mean you could respawn out of the mission and try again with an adjusted strategy), I do get we should have maybe tried it at a lower difficulty or done it a different way. In fact, we had done this mission before on a team we built expressly to be as well balanced as possible (they struggled), so it was natural to assume maybe we could have handled it. But the design issue comes from the fact that once you fail, it's basically impossible to recover within what could be suspected as the developer intentions. I highly doubt they had planned for players to either be forced to log out, repeatedly die until an enemy's strongest powers were on cooldown, nevermind the base teleport exploit.

 

In the end though, the root problem is still that these types of ambush mobs lock onto players and will track you across the map (happened when we did managed to get out and reenter with one teammate dropping at one end of the map then the mob flying over towards me at the other end) and just as egregiously nearly negates an entire archtype (the stalker) with this kind of programming on top of all the other frustrating aspects of it.

[Black Zot]

31 minutes ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

and just as egregiously nearly negates an entire archtype (the stalker) 

 

TWO entire archetypes.  Any mastermind that has one of these target them is dead, pets be damned.

[SurfD]

25 minutes ago, Black Zot said:

 

TWO entire archetypes.  Any mastermind that has one of these target them is dead, pets be damned.

And yet, the fact that I cleared this mission with a Bots/Time MM on my first go (also the first character I rolled after discovering homecoming, so definitely NOT optimal build at the time) would disagree with this.   MMs can handle ambushes just fine.  WAY more annoying on my stalker when they lock onto you through stealth and you have to corner-turtle bait them to let you get the first shot in.

Edited August 5, 2020 by SurfD

[MTeague]

@SurfD It depends on the MM.  Some MM's are very much built for Tankerminding.  Particularly if you also happen ot have some form of AE healing in your toolkit, which you did. You could ping defense, spread out any pain that got trhough to your pets, and keep maintennce heals rolling as they stomp down the ambush.  Compare and contrast to say, how Ninjas/Poison would do in that case, or Necro/TrickArrow.  But all MM's can have serious problems if they're under attack again as soon as they respawn, with no chance to summon pets back up.  Now yes, the trick to this is "Don't Die", but again, some combos will do much better than others.

 

@Sakura Tenshi  It also depends on the Stalker in question.  My Spines/Regen stalker handles the ambushes right fine.  It helps that he's *very* well kitted out but he's using Assassin's strike from normal combat FAR more than he uses it from stealth, and Spines gives him a lot of AE options and Toxic damage to wear down foes. And of course, /Regen, as long as the incoming damage is below a certain threshhold, you can just go for DAYS and never get worn down.  And the more set bonuses you stack, the more you bend the curve of that threshold in your favor.  But a Dark/Electric stalker, or a MA/Nin might have trouble... just from their Single-Target focus.   And the /Nin stalker particularly could have a bad day if the laser-guided ambush includes lots of Defense Debuffers, unless they've also build up lots of +Resist set bonuses.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

4 hours ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

To be honest, I wouldn't mind it if a team wipe was a 'mission fail' that forced restarted the mission (as that would basically mean you could respawn out of the mission and try again with an adjusted strategy), I do get we should have maybe tried it at a lower difficulty or done it a different way. In fact, we had done this mission before on a team we built expressly to be as well balanced as possible (they struggled), so it was natural to assume maybe we could have handled it. But the design issue comes from the fact that once you fail, it's basically impossible to recover within what could be suspected as the developer intentions. I highly doubt they had planned for players to either be forced to log out, repeatedly die until an enemy's strongest powers were on cooldown, nevermind the base teleport exploit.

 

In the end though, the root problem is still that these types of ambush mobs lock onto players and will track you across the map (happened when we did managed to get out and reenter with one teammate dropping at one end of the map then the mob flying over towards me at the other end) and just as egregiously nearly negates an entire archtype (the stalker) with this kind of programming on top of all the other frustrating aspects of it.

That is not remotely unique to this content when it comes to a stalkers stealth being a liability or being outright negated. Every time you solo a hostage mish as a stalker you need to turn off stealth or listen to the npc constantly ask where you went.

 

Stealth isnt suppose to be some end all unbeatable ability. hence why some mobs can see right through it, and why in content like this, it gets negated entirely.

 

But Ive now done this in the last few days as a stalker, blaster, and scrapper. and while Ive had a few rough moments in each toons run, nothing that was impossible to recover from, and sometimes even becoming a boon.

 

in the case of the blaster and the stalker I stayed up y the mansion door during the ambush portions. I kept the NPC allies alive, and so when Ward popped they took aggro while I got clarity to the pool. In the case of my scrapper I just stood down at the entrance to the hedge maze and tanked every thing head on.  all these runs at +1 x4 on toons that I tend to run solo at around that dif setting for casual play.  I am not saying there is no issue, but any issue must be measured as much against the regular successes as much as the atypical failures. If we make this mish easier in anyway for the average, it will turn it into a snoozefest for the more capable.

[Greycat]

10 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

 

This was my first MMO ever and the first character was a Dark/Dark Scrapper. I am certain that the early designers were sadists.😂

Early designers? They brought on Sean McCann (from the playerbase, actually) a ways into the game's development and... well, he *loved* ambushes, apparently...

[Myrmidon]

8 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

That is not remotely unique to this content when it comes to a stalkers stealth being a liability or being outright negated. Every time you solo a hostage mish as a stalker you need to turn off stealth or listen to the npc constantly ask where you went.

 

Stealth isnt suppose to be some end all unbeatable ability. hence why some mobs can see right through it, and why in content like this, it gets negated entirely.

 

But Ive now done this in the last few days as a stalker, blaster, and scrapper. and while Ive had a few rough moments in each toons run, nothing that was impossible to recover from, and sometimes even becoming a boon.

 

in the case of the blaster and the stalker I stayed up y the mansion door during the ambush portions. I kept the NPC allies alive, and so when Ward popped they took aggro while I got clarity to the pool. In the case of my scrapper I just stood down at the entrance to the hedge maze and tanked every thing head on.  all these runs at +1 x4 on toons that I tend to run solo at around that dif setting for casual play.  I am not saying there is no issue, but any issue must be measured as much against the regular successes as much as the atypical failures. If we make this mish easier in anyway for the average, it will turn it into a snoozefest for the more capable.

 Brute, Controller, Corruptor, Defender, Dominator, Fortunata, Mastermind, Night Widow, Peacebringer, Spider, Soldier Tanker, Warshade, Widow.

 

 

You are planning to collect all of the Pokémon, right?

[ShardWarrior]

9 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

in the case of the blaster and the stalker I stayed up y the mansion door during the ambush portions. I kept the NPC allies alive, and so when Ward popped they took aggro while I got clarity to the pool. In the case of my scrapper I just stood down at the entrance to the hedge maze and tanked every thing head on.  all these runs at +1 x4 on toons that I tend to run solo at around that dif setting for casual play.  I am not saying there is no issue, but any issue must be measured as much against the regular successes as much as the atypical failures. If we make this mish easier in anyway for the average, it will turn it into a snoozefest for the more capable.

You have the benefit of hindsight here in knowing what to expect from the mission.  Many others will not and again, poor map design exacerbates getting spawn camped. 

[Apparition]

26 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

 Brute, Controller, Corruptor, Defender, Dominator, Fortunata, Mastermind, Night Widow, Peacebringer, Spider, Soldier Tanker, Warshade, Widow.

 

 

You are planning to collect all of the Pokémon, right?

 

Not even Bentley deserves having to play a Peacebringer.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

19 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

 Brute, Controller, Corruptor, Defender, Dominator, Fortunata, Mastermind, Night Widow, Peacebringer, Spider, Soldier Tanker, Warshade, Widow.

 

 

You are planning to collect all of the Pokémon, right?

Actually I am pondering if I run this again, to use my very team leader centric PB, and try to build a group using a variety of AT to see if any given AT seems to struggle in a full team against the large spawn sizes expected in the final mish. I just dont know if its worth it. Those who want it dumbed downed seem to think they can call it bad design when to me it seems pretty clear the intent is to have players want to keep the NPC help alive, until that moment in the story, and to not screw around at that moment. Call it heavy handed GMing, I certainly would, but its also the exact kind of thing I do as a Gm at table top PnP games. Use blatant ticking clocks, and the threat of everything ending up in a fail spiral because of one frack up that they should of been better about not letting happen.

 

I still have yet to see anyone say this is too hard on baseline dif for a decent solo character, or even for a team that is all at the level for the content that are typically capable of pulling their own weight. If I go in on baseline, its an utter easy bore of a snoozefest, and if I have allies as capable as myself I can bet it will be the same against the increased spawn sizes.

 

 

[Galaxy Brain]

@Bentley Berkeley, I want you to take a loss at the Ward Part and see if you can manage to get away from the spawn camping. Clearly there must be a way to outplay that part ya?

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

5 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

Not even Bentley deserves having to play a Peacebringer.

Peace bringer is one of my mains actually, human form, perma light form, very solid dps, and can even bring some support and healing to his allies. But he isnt a disgusting alien parasite in concept, just a man of mysterious origin possessed of inexplicable energies.

 

I mean really a class with a nuke, and a perma tier 9 unstoppable like ability, and fly at level one, whats not to love?

[Coyotedancer]

5 hours ago, Greycat said:

Early designers? They brought on Sean McCann (from the playerbase, actually) a ways into the game's development and... well, he *loved* ambushes, apparently...

 

No joke. When the Going Rogue missions and Praetorian zones were in beta, I ran through them with a Stalker...

 ... and ended up asking if a Stalker had kicked the writers' puppy or something.

 

I was essential told 'My story, my choice. Sucks to be you.' XP

 

So, yeah. They knew *exactly* what they were doing to Stalker players with the endless "heat seeking ambushes" in the Praetorian content.

They just didn't care that it turned us into wannabe scrappers.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

5 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

@Bentley Berkeley, I want you to take a loss at the Ward Part and see if you can manage to get away from the spawn camping. Clearly there must be a way to outplay that part ya?

Why should I at your request when your offerings to this discussion are often vague and shallow, and what details you have given Ive basically had to play 20Q to get out of you?  I mean ive been pretty reasonable in admitting that plenty of factors can make this tougher on some. lack of flying, lack of ranged dps, lack of mass aoe nuking all certainly play a part in the OPs original issues imo. But and lets be clear here, you as well as I have been doing this at increased dif solo, just doing that alone means it is not some unfair thing for a full party of characters actually up to snuff for the content at baseline which is what actually needs to be the dif being tested for a discussion on balance and if dumbing down the mish is truly a need.

 

Do you struggle on baseline? Does the OP? Do you struggle on baseline in a team ? Is the team a team you consider capable in general? These are the Qs no one is answering and why I dont see an issue. Because I know the answers to these for myself and those I run with often already. And the answer is nope, nothing in this game at x0+0 short of some AVs and GMs is really going to slow us down let alone stop us cold and force us to give up.

[Myrmidon]

12 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

No joke. When the Going Rogue missions and Praetorian zones were in beta, I ran through them with a Stalker...

 ... and ended up asking if a Stalker had kicked the writers' puppy or something.

 

I was essential told 'My story, my choice. Sucks to be you.' XP

 

So, yeah. They knew *exactly* what they were doing to Stalker players with the endless "heat seeking ambushes" in the Praetorian content.

They just didn't care that it turned us into wannabe scrappers.

And this is part of why that content is mostly dead.

[Galaxy Brain]

4 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Why should I at your request when your offerings to this discussion are often vague and shallow, and what details you have given Ive basically had to play 20Q to get out of you?  I mean ive been pretty reasonable in admitting that plenty of factors can make this tougher on some. lack of flying, lack of ranged dps, lack of mass aoe nuking all certainly play a part in the OPs original issues imo. But and lets be clear here, you as well as I have been doing this at increased dif solo, just doing that alone means it is not some unfair thing for a full party of characters actually up to snuff for the content at baseline which is what actually needs to be the dif being tested for a discussion on balance and if dumbing down the mish is truly a need.

 

Do you struggle on baseline? Does the OP? Do you struggle on baseline in a team ? Is the team a team you consider capable in general? These are the Qs no one is answering and why I dont see an issue. Because I know the answers to these for myself and those I run with often already. And the answer is nope, nothing in this game at x0+0 short of some AVs and GMs is really going to slow us down let alone stop us cold and force us to give up.

It does not matter the before, I want you to experience what I did on my /Energy Aura scrapper and happen to take an L at that part. It really doesn't matter what lead to it, but it seems you have not experienced it.

 

Experience what we're talking about, then get back to us.

[Myrmidon]

1 minute ago, Galaxy Brain said:

It does not matter the before, I want you to experience what I did on my /Energy Aura scrapper and happen to take an L at that part. It really doesn't matter what lead to it, but it seems you have not experienced it.

 

Experience what we're talking about, then get back to us.

As an addendum to this, head over to the test servers and give it a go with any computation that you like if you prefer not to keep at it here.

[Coyotedancer]

5 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

And this is part of why that content is mostly dead.

 

I'm not sure the ambush-a-palooza nature of the missions in particular accounts for that, but it is definitely one of the challenges of leveling characters through that content. I've done it with a few Stalkers since then (Including the Live version of Shade in Shadow, the KM/WP character that I did that beta run with-), but I can't say it's the best experience for that particular AT. It's certainly not the place to "learn to Stalker". You're just not allowed to.

[Myrmidon]

15 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

I'm not sure the ambush-a-palooza nature of the missions in particular accounts for that, but it is definitely one of the challenges of leveling characters through that content. I've done it with a few Stalkers since then (Including the Live version of Shade in Shadow, the KM/WP character that I did that beta run with-), but I can't say it's the best experience for that particular AT. It's certainly not the place to "learn to Stalker". You're just not allowed to.

Here, I have been through Praetoria once  (funny enough, on a StJ/WP Stalker) just to replay the story and rarely saw anyone. Praetoria suffers from the same issue as the Rogue Isles, people just prefer to stay in Paragon.

 

The Dev team really missed the boat with Going Rogue on live. I know that they were trying to chase the money, however, things might have turned out better for that if they had turned Praetoria into Incarnate story content instead of starting out with raid grinding. Who knows, If that had been the direction, they might even still be up and running to this day.

[MTeague]

24 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

And this is part of why that content is mostly dead.

<Miracle Max voice>  But mostly dead, is partly alive....

 

I actually really like Praetorian content. Ambushes and all. But it's documented that I'm an odd person to begin with. 🙂

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

It does not matter the before, I want you to experience what I did on my /Energy Aura scrapper and happen to take an L at that part. It really doesn't matter what lead to it, but it seems you have not experienced it.

 

Experience what we're talking about, then get back to us.

You know if you would just learn how to slot willpower right you wouldnt die in thar.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

2 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

No joke. When the Going Rogue missions and Praetorian zones were in beta, I ran through them with a Stalker...

 ... and ended up asking if a Stalker had kicked the writers' puppy or something.

 

I was essential told 'My story, my choice. Sucks to be you.' XP

 

So, yeah. They knew *exactly* what they were doing to Stalker players with the endless "heat seeking ambushes" in the Praetorian content.

They just didn't care that it turned us into wannabe scrappers.

I actually spent some time thinking on my reply to you as imo you tend to be one of the most civil posters who argues in good faith.

 

IMO and truly I am not trying to make this sound like an attack, just a critique, but a stalker is more then their stealth. depending on power sets ofcourse stalkiers have access to forms of cc, as well as access to the same universal tools we all can add to our arsenal and should for when times get rough. In ways I play my stalker more like my doms, using a mixture of tools that keep the enemy off balance and unable to attack due to cc or trying to flee, and mow them down rapidly during such moments. And because a stalker can do things like that, as well as face tank decently, that I never have seen mishes with ambush waves, when at base line dif at all punishing for a solo stalker, and well for stealth classes solo is always the default as you otherwise need allies that also stealth to really be a great team. Anyone who has been in all stalker parties knows what I mean there.

 

I honestly dont see it as unfair that stealth can be negated by a script. Otherwise it would give stealth a really huge advantage, one greater then it already allows when it comes to speed running for merits etc. Call it heavy handed GMing sure, but thats not some terrible thing, there is a time and place for it in an RPG. its basically the GM saying this is the kind of situation that is a must a true need, not a want or a mere whim. Is leading hostages out a pita? Yarp, are they among my least liked content? yarp. Do they feel like something super heroes would do? Yarp. If Batman has to escort out a hostage through hostile forces, he is going to stick close to them, and put himself between them and harms way, even if he is a stalker and not a HEAT like Superman.

[Coyotedancer]

I've more or less mained a Stalker forever, BB. I suspect that I know as well as anyone what they're capable of... That's why I chose to do my beta run through Praetoria with one. And yes, hostage escort missions are, and always have been, a royal pain in the rump for Stalkers, too.  We all know that.

 

My issue at the time was with the constant use (I'd say OVERUSE myself, but that's a personal opinion-) of the specific player-targeted ambush mechanics that automatically bypass Hide, which was very much a matter of the mission developer's choice. Ambushes *can* be set NOT to automatically see through Hide, and often are in the "regular" game content. Praetorian ambushes aren't exactly alone in doing it, but over-all non-Hide-busting ambushes are more common than the heat-seekers. The choice to use the Hide-busting version exclusively in all of the Praetorian content was what made me raise an eyebrow.

 

Well... that, plus the dev's reaction when I pointed out that he was pretty much turning Stalkers into Scraps by leaning so heavily on that particular flavor of the ambush code. 

 

I'll also gently remind that all of that pre-dated the changes to our Assassin's attacks that allowed "quick use", and before the ATO sets came along with that Hide proc that changed our sneaky little world. Those two changes have made stalking through the ambushes of Praetoria much less annoying than they were at the time.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Coyotedancer