I think you could make two small changes to Dark Armor to make it fit in better with the more modern and versatile armor sets.

[Neogumbercules]

Dark Armor is a solid set, it has a lot of IO potential, the strongest self-heal in the game, good resists to everything except energy, and the ability to softcap defenses and hard cap resistances all at the same time.

 

It's two major problems are it's utility powers are a little underwhelming and the end cost when you run all of those toggles is very bad. Cloak of Fear is broken by Death Shroud and the to-hit debuff is pretty weak. Oppressive gloom is the only power in any of the armor sets that damages the user as far as I know, and a minion only stun is not good enough to offset that damage.

 

I propose the following:

 

In many RPG style games, the "dark energy" type character usually has some kind of ability that consumes your own life-force to damage your foes, or in many cases, to build up resource. Trading life for mana, or whatever. Let's change Oppressive Gloom to also absorb endurance. Now we're stunning minions and draining endurance from everyone in range. That kills two birds with one stone, because now DA has a powerful endurance management tool. In addition to that, Oppressive Gloom damages the user even when you are using it against foes that are immune, or protected from the effect. Against bosses and LTs, I'm literally just running a toggle that damages me and does nothing to them (unless I have some way to stack it, but you can't always count on that).

 

Next up lets beef up the -to-hit of Cloak of Fear, or alternatively, also give it a -dmg debuff to the foes. Now it's worth that 0.52 end/sec(IIRC).

 

That's it.

[kelika2]

GIVE OBSIDIAN SHIELD NEG ENERGY RESISTS ALREADY

 

Also its literally fine, its just doesnt have [Dark Burn].  Also I think years ago they meant to have toggles and such to be used smartly god dman i got bored typing this too just go fire armor and recolor everything dark and enjoy

[SwitchFade]

There's a great thread that discussed DA already, with changes proposed, debated and refined there. I suggest adding to it.

 

Unfortunately, the issues with DA go beyond your OP.

 

While well intentioned, I would vote no on this, please see the other thread mentioned.

[BrandX]

All I ever wanted from Dark Armor, was more Negative Energy Resists.  The ability to cap Negative Energy Resists all by itself.

[arcane]

As someone who mained dark armor on live since i0, I'm generally not crazy about the idea of giving it a particularly powerful ability to solve all of its endurance problems. I'm the kind of person that thinks a powerful set having one or two major cons is not going to be the end of the world. That being said, I like the idea of putting it into oppressive gloom; at least that way you have to use both dark regeneration and oppressive gloom to get an ideal equilibrium, and oppressive gloom is something I'm normally reluctant to run because those tiny red numbers are a bit upsetting when it's doing almost nothing good.

 

I don't really want dark regeneration changed. It's so immensely powerful that it deserves a real cost. And if a lower endurance cost were implemented and the heal per target were reduced to mitigate the reduced cost, the set might be harmed when fighting AV's, etc.

 

Agree the two mez powers are pretty bad. Agree with making them better somehow. Agree with more -ToHit in Cloak of Fear.

Edited August 9, 2020 by arcaneholocaust

[Saiyajinzoningen]

DA is already one of the best armor sets in game. The proposed changes would make it THE best set. Every power-set has its strengths and weaknesses. This is a called balance. Personally i went from hating DA to loving it. In fact id argue that other sets require more love to bring them up to par with DA. 

[chi1701]

2 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

DA is already one of the best armor sets in game. The proposed changes would make it THE best set. Every power-set has its strengths and weaknesses. This is a called balance. Personally i went from hating DA to loving it. In fact id argue that other sets require more love to bring them up to par with DA. 

Going by statistics, if DA is as good as you say it is, then why low numbers?

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

35 minutes ago, chi1701 said:

Going by statistics, if DA is as good as you say it is, then why low numbers?

Takes a heavier investment from the player in both knowledge and resources to bring out its full potential. Basically it has a lower base performance for the average player, but to those who know how to build and play it, it will be got tier.

[chi1701]

45 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Takes a heavier investment from the player in both knowledge and resources to bring out its full potential. Basically it has a lower base performance for the average player, but to those who know how to build and play it, it will be got tier.

Will admit, i did try and build it, but got frustrated with massive endurance drain at low levels. Though making it tanky enough, and having perma hasten and to a point solving endurance still alludes me.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

1 minute ago, chi1701 said:

Will admit, i did try and build it, but got frustrated with massive endurance drain at low levels. Though making it tanky enough, and having perma hasten and to a point solving endurance still alludes me.

try an elec melee/dark armor. Perma hasten is only needed if you are a click heavy not toggle heavy build. Toggle heavy builds its far better to focus on set themes that offer things like layers of protection that can let you not need all your toggles on at all times.

 

Just some things to ponder.

[chi1701]

35 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

try an elec melee/dark armor. Perma hasten is only needed if you are a click heavy not toggle heavy build. Toggle heavy builds its far better to focus on set themes that offer things like layers of protection that can let you not need all your toggles on at all times.

 

Just some things to ponder.

More to do with having the lowest cooldown on heals and endurance powers.

[Cutter]

On 8/8/2020 at 3:23 PM, Neogumbercules said:

Dark Armor is a solid set, it has a lot of IO potential, the strongest self-heal in the game, good resists to everything except energy, and the ability to softcap defenses and hard cap resistances all at the same time.

 

It's two major problems are it's utility powers are a little underwhelming and the end cost when you run all of those toggles is very bad. Cloak of Fear is broken by Death Shroud and the to-hit debuff is pretty weak. Oppressive gloom is the only power in any of the armor sets that damages the user as far as I know, and a minion only stun is not good enough to offset that damage.

 

I propose the following:

 

In many RPG style games, the "dark energy" type character usually has some kind of ability that consumes your own life-force to damage your foes, or in many cases, to build up resource. Trading life for mana, or whatever. Let's change Oppressive Gloom to also absorb endurance. Now we're stunning minions and draining endurance from everyone in range. That kills two birds with one stone, because now DA has a powerful endurance management tool. In addition to that, Oppressive Gloom damages the user even when you are using it against foes that are immune, or protected from the effect. Against bosses and LTs, I'm literally just running a toggle that damages me and does nothing to them (unless I have some way to stack it, but you can't always count on that).

 

Next up lets beef up the -to-hit of Cloak of Fear, or alternatively, also give it a -dmg debuff to the foes. Now it's worth that 0.52 end/sec(IIRC).

 

That's it.

 

On 8/8/2020 at 6:13 PM, SwitchFade said:

There's a great thread that discussed DA already, with changes proposed, debated and refined there. I suggest adding to it.

 

Unfortunately, the issues with DA go beyond your OP.

 

While well intentioned, I would vote no on this, please see the other thread mentioned.

So I was a fairly prolific contributor to that DA conversation (Weekly Discussion 48 if anyone wants to go take a boo at the whole thing). While I'll freely admit that a couple of my ideas late in the thread got a little out of hand, there was also some positive reception to these few early thoughts, which somewhat mirror @Neogumbercules' suggestions. I've bolded the two powers that Neo discussed, and left the rest for posterity.

Quote

• Death Shroud - Nothing fancy, just add a -tohit effect here. Negative energy damage tends to have this baked into it, I'd simply port that here.
• Dark Regeneration - Not gonna touch it. I've read a few comments to the effect that DR is the cornerstone of the set (e.g. "if they can't kill you before DR recharges, they can't kill you"), so I don't see a reason to mess with it.
• Cloak of Fear - I'm "wrapped in nightmares" and treating my foes to "visions most horrific". Let's buff CoF by borrowing the stats from Nature Affinity's Entangling Aura (while keeping it a Terrorize). EA has a slightly higher endurance cost, but a much better accuracy, larger radius, and chances to proc magnitude up to affecting bosses. I'd love to see some -def get thrown in there, or an equivalent self +tohit, to reflect that cowering people generally are gonna be easier to thwack (and while we're at it I want a pony). Oh, the existing -tohit doesn't go anywhere.
• Oppressive Gloom - I'd love to see an increased mag on this, or at least a chance for it (similar to the CoF change above). Minions are the least of anyone's worries, and having them disoriented for the 1.3 seconds they're alive is practically worthless. To address the "strengthen you" part of the point, and make this power more of a consideration, I'd also complement the existing -HP with a new +Recovery element.
• Soul Transfer - Suggesting a (relatively) simple change, which is surely not original to my brain: allow it to be used as a +HP/heal/rcv when alive (in the same vein as Second Wind from the Sentinel version of Regen, or on a more thematically appropriate tack, Soul Absorption in Controller Dark Affinity).

To a few other posters' points - yes, DA can be built to do ridiculous things, but it requires a pretty substantial IO investment to get there, along with arguably a deeper knowledge/learning investment to get into what makes it tick than other sets ask for. It absolutely rewards those investments, but its baseline is (again, arguably) perhaps less rewarding to the casual player than other sets. So maybe not a full suite of radical changes, but a couple ways to bring up that baseline would be welcomed.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

59 minutes ago, chi1701 said:

More to do with having the lowest cooldown on heals and endurance powers.

The sheer dmg negation of Dark armor should make you far less dependent on the heal, and for example with elec melee, that makes your attacks be your endurance recovery as well as dps.

 

Every set has a true optimal partner that fills in its weaknesses best, imo for dark armor that is electric melee. Much like for SR the best melee is dark.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

20 minutes ago, Cutter said:

 

So I was a fairly prolific contributor to that DA conversation (Weekly Discussion 48 if anyone wants to go take a boo at the whole thing). While I'll freely admit that a couple of my ideas late in the thread got a little out of hand, there was also some positive reception to these few early thoughts, which somewhat mirror @Neogumbercules' suggestions. I've bolded the two powers that Neo discussed, and left the rest for posterity.

To a few other posters' points - yes, DA can be built to do ridiculous things, but it requires a pretty substantial IO investment to get there, along with arguably a deeper knowledge/learning investment to get into what makes it tick than other sets ask for. It absolutely rewards those investments, but its baseline is (again, arguably) perhaps less rewarding to the casual player than other sets. So maybe not a full suite of radical changes, but a couple ways to bring up that baseline would be welcomed.

The issue is, when somethin is a god tier level of performance when built and played optimally, any buffing at the lower performance end will inevitably buff the peak up further. While yes its not always newb friendly, imo every game needs such options. Much like in D&D where new players are far better off sticking to a fighter who just needs to swing a weapon, were as advanced players will often favor the spell caster classes that demand a near encyclopedic knowledge of chapters of spells to play one at a remotely effective level.

Edited August 10, 2020 by Bentley Berkeley

[Cutter]

36 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

The issue is, when somethin is a god tier level of performance when built and played optimally, any buffing at the lower performance end will inevitably buff the peak up further. While yes its not always newb friendly, imo every game needs such options. Much like in D&D where new players are far better off sticking to a fighter who just needs to swing a weapon, were as advanced players will often favor the spell caster classes that demand a near encyclopedic knowledge of chapters of spells to play one at a remotely effective level.

I can't argue against your first point- a better baseline would result in a better top end. The question perhaps should be (and I'm not at all saying I'm equipped to answer it): "Is a more potent top end, for those who deeply invest in it, an acceptable tradeoff for a better introductory / "newb friendly" / minimal investment experience?"

 

To your D&D comparison, typically the Fighter descriptions tend to be a pretty sparse affair while the Casters have pages upon pages of material. The differences in complexity are known right up front. That's not the case here. With D&D, it's easy for a new player to look at, say, a Wizard, and think "that looks hard, I'll come back to it when I'm more familiar with the game". With CoH, given that lack of information, a player who tries DA and finds it lacking isn't likely to think "that was hard, I'll come back to it when [same as above]..."; I would suggest that the response would more likely be "that was hard, DA sucks, never gonna try that again." Which is a shame.

 

I don't think we want to go down the road of labeling sets "advanced users only", as that opens a whole barrel of worms. And we're long past the era of experience-gated ATs. Honestly not sure what the "correct" or "ideal" approach to that might be. But I'm pretty sure letting inexperienced players struggle, hate and abandon the set isn't it.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

46 minutes ago, Cutter said:

I can't argue against your first point- a better baseline would result in a better top end. The question perhaps should be (and I'm not at all saying I'm equipped to answer it): "Is a more potent top end, for those who deeply invest in it, an acceptable tradeoff for a better introductory / "newb friendly" / minimal investment experience?"

 

To your D&D comparison, typically the Fighter descriptions tend to be a pretty sparse affair while the Casters have pages upon pages of material. The differences in complexity are known right up front. That's not the case here. With D&D, it's easy for a new player to look at, say, a Wizard, and think "that looks hard, I'll come back to it when I'm more familiar with the game". With CoH, given that lack of information, a player who tries DA and finds it lacking isn't likely to think "that was hard, I'll come back to it when [same as above]..."; I would suggest that the response would more likely be "that was hard, DA sucks, never gonna try that again." Which is a shame.

 

I don't think we want to go down the road of labeling sets "advanced users only", as that opens a whole barrel of worms. And we're long past the era of experience-gated ATs. Honestly not sure what the "correct" or "ideal" approach to that might be. But I'm pretty sure letting inexperienced players struggle, hate and abandon the set isn't it.

I think perhaps you and I have a different idea of what a good gamer would do. See my first toon to cap on live was a kat/sr scrapper, and after the ED era and end of perma elude in that era I certainly felt SR had lost a lot of what I loved about it. However I also was quick to see that even though SR now wasnt nearly as easy to use in general and had a lot lacking in it being a pure def set with no sustain powers built in, made a dark/sr before it became the default mass av solo slayer it would come to be known as.

 

IMO its perfectly fine for a game to have obscure enough aspects that a new player and their first character are likely not going to be especially good against the content. And we actually do already have advanced vs easy starting classes. Its pretty well known among games large and wide, that classes like tank tend to be much easier on new players learning the game as their inherent survivalability offers a larger safety net for flubbing up. The fact some power sets just take a good partner to excel is the nature of the beast and one I would hate to see dumbed down. I prefer a world were not all are simply going to achieve top tier power without some understanding and effort put into learning how to get there.

 

The fact is there are more answers then just elec to pair with dark armor to make it work better, thats just imo the most obvious starting build choice one can make. DA is as easy to manage as keeping a supply of recovery serum from P2W. Which is not remotely unfair to ask players to use, as it was once upon a time a crafted recipe easy to come by and make charges of even back on live. Now its right there and evena  new player wont take long if someone teaches them to monetize reward merits to have more then enough to keep plenty of RS charges to keep their blue from running low.

[Galaxy Brain]

29 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

I think perhaps you and I have a different idea of what a good gamer would do.

he was mentioning new/casual players, not necessarily good ones.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

7 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

he was mentioning new/casual players, not necessarily good ones.

Since I seem to have to always spell out the obvious for you Mr. Brain, my point is that a good gamer( not one who is good at the game but a gamer who is good at learning to play new games) will not simply write off a power set as bad, but instead learn enough to understand why their initial attempt with the power set went bad. And learn enough about the game mechanics to make it work better for them if it even suits their actual play style.

[Cutter]

52 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

I think perhaps you and I have a different idea of what a good gamer would do. See my first toon to cap on live was a kat/sr scrapper, and after the ED era and end of perma elude in that era I certainly felt SR had lost a lot of what I loved about it. However I also was quick to see that even though SR now wasnt nearly as easy to use in general and had a lot lacking in it being a pure def set with no sustain powers built in, made a dark/sr before it became the default mass av solo slayer it would come to be known as.

Perhaps. Maybe I am being unfairly critical of players who aren't me, and making assumptions that aren't necessarily true. However, from a sheer numbers/popularity point of view, there's definitely something about DA that doesn't jive, and the challenges of playing the set are part of that.

Quote

IMO its perfectly fine for a game to have obscure enough aspects that a new player and their first character are likely not going to be especially good against the content. And we actually do already have advanced vs easy starting classes. Its pretty well known among games large and wide, that classes like tank tend to be much easier on new players learning the game as their inherent survivalability offers a larger safety net for flubbing up. The fact some power sets just take a good partner to excel is the nature of the beast and one I would hate to see dumbed down. I prefer a world were not all are simply going to achieve top tier power without some understanding and effort put into learning how to get there.

I don't think I was asking for dumbing down or removal of effort? If anything, adding small QoL touches to a few powers should in theory make understanding and decision making more difficult - as it stands now, DA is basically a 5- (perhaps 6-) power set. It's generally recognized as a no-brainer to skip Oppressive Gloom, Cloak of Fear and Soul Transfer (with Cloak of Darkness being optional). What if it wasn't? What if those powers had real value, and forced painful decisions?

 

FWIW, my first 50 on Live - and main throughout the life of the game - was a Spines/DA scrapper. I am painfully familiar with the challenges posed by DA. I've remade him here as a DA/Elec tanker. I've taken and slotted my entire primary, and made deliberately researched choices to leverage and layer their effects with other powers to maximize their potential. It's an unconventional build - I suspect there are not a lot of tanks out there going 3/4 deep into the Presence pool, or looking at Control Hybrid. It's a narrow and not-at-all obvious path to achieve what other sets can do within themselves.

Quote

The fact is there are more answers then just elec to pair with dark armor to make it work better, thats just imo the most obvious starting build choice one can make. DA is as easy to manage as keeping a supply of recovery serum from P2W. Which is not remotely unfair to ask players to use, as it was once upon a time a crafted recipe easy to come by and make charges of even back on live. Now its right there and evena  new player wont take long if someone teaches them to monetize reward merits to have more then enough to keep plenty of RS charges to keep their blue from running low.

Noted with thanks. I've never looked into Recovery Serum, but it's now on my radar to try out. 500k for 5 charges is pretty steep tho.

41 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Since I seem to have to always spell out the obvious for you Mr. Brain, my point is that a good gamer( not one who is good at the game but a gamer who is good at learning to play new games) will not simply write off a power set as bad, but instead learn enough to understand why their initial attempt with the power set went bad. And learn enough about the game mechanics to make it work better for them if it even suits their actual play style.

*Some good gamers will do this. I suspect others will come to the boards, do their research, and decide that the hoops they have to jump through to make DA strong just aren't worth it when other sets do the same thing for much less. The lure of immediate gratification and the path of least resistance is strong, after all.

[chi1701]

48 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Since I seem to have to always spell out the obvious for you Mr. Brain, my point is that a good gamer( not one who is good at the game but a gamer who is good at learning to play new games) will not simply write off a power set as bad, but instead learn enough to understand why their initial attempt with the power set went bad. And learn enough about the game mechanics to make it work better for them if it even suits their actual play style.

lol no they dont, since i primarily play a peace-bringer, its always, ive played that class but didnt like the constant form swapping so gave up. First impressions are always what happens. People want the easy option, not interested in putting hard work into anything. Plus no one is interested in class balance, mainly because people are comfortable right now that they have chosen the flavour of the month/year.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

2 hours ago, chi1701 said:

lol no they dont, since i primarily play a peace-bringer, its always, ive played that class but didnt like the constant form swapping so gave up. First impressions are always what happens. People want the easy option, not interested in putting hard work into anything. Plus no one is interested in class balance, mainly because people are comfortable right now that they have chosen the flavour of the month/year.

This is where we shall have to disagree, frankly you seem to have a very low opinion of our fellow gamers. One of my mains is a PB, a Human form PB because I from the moment they got added, wanted one due to their inherent flight, but loathed the idea of their forms. Perma light form ftw! If people forsake PB because of the forms, and never try a pure human build, then well at the very least we can ignore any opinions they ever have to offer about the AT and powers, because they dont have any experience to form a real idea of any substance or value and thus invalidate themselves before they even enter into relevancy.

[BrandX]

13 hours ago, chi1701 said:

Going by statistics, if DA is as good as you say it is, then why low numbers?

Going by statistics, Regen would be one of the best, I don't recall it being regarded as such.

[chi1701]

6 hours ago, BrandX said:

Going by statistics, Regen would be one of the best, I don't recall it being regarded as such.

Ive seen what regen can do on scrappers, could never really build one, but he had a batter tank/dps than my pb in dwarf form with capped resists.

[BrandX]

4 hours ago, chi1701 said:

Ive seen what regen can do on scrappers, could never really build one, but he had a batter tank/dps than my pb in dwarf form with capped resists.

I'm curious to see this build, as I've never seen this.  Or is it, it was something akin to Katana/Regen, so it had Parry to carry it?

[chi1701]

14 minutes ago, BrandX said:

I'm curious to see this build, as I've never seen this.  Or is it, it was something akin to Katana/Regen, so it had Parry to carry it?

Unfortuantely, havent seen him playing the game in awhile.