Game Balance & The Endgame

[golstat2003]

20 minutes ago, Naraka said:

 

So you leave your game on default difficulty when you start a character?  You don't push it up to +2 or +3 or turn on bosses solo?

No. Keep the base game AS IS. Give others who want it more difficult higher difficulty options. The ones asking for higher difficulty are the ones asking for a change. Let them be the ones to have the option to select the higher difficulty.

 

As the devs have said in other threads it's completely valid to think that the base game should be left as is. Especially since the HC devs intend to keep SOs the main balance point.

Edited September 28, 2020 by golstat2003

[Troo]

player set difficulty.. covered

 

 

should we expand this or did someone have additions?

[BitCook]

7 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

Saying the game had better defined roles back in the day versus now is not accurate either.  I am routinely teaming with people who play the entire spectrum of ATs and power sets and everyone is bringing something to the table. 

That's anecdotal and your opinion, but I won't make claims you're lying or trying to deceive people.  I just think you like a certain game style that I don't believe in.  So yeah, please give the same courtesy to the people who don't agree with you.  No one is trying to be deceptive that I know of.

Now, I've actually laid out why I think support sets and control sets have diminished in power.  I've given numbers and other actual examples why I think that.  It would be really nice if you did the same.  How do you think that the entire spectrum of ATs are valuable when things tend to die within 1-2 rounds of casting?  I am actually very curious as to why you think this, not just that you do.  

If support characters can barely get off more than 1-2 casts in most encounters, what is their value to a team?  Why do you think they are as useful as prior times in the game where encounters lasted significantly longer?

[golstat2003]

12 minutes ago, Troo said:

player set difficulty.. covered

 

 

should we expand this or did someone have additions?

Expanding these would be a good idea.

[Haijinx]

So let me follow this line of logic. 

 

The game has been arcing towards getting easier by steps pretty much for most of COH's life.  

 

But its the people who want it to be more challenging that are the ones asking for the change? 

 

 

[ShardWarrior]

1 hour ago, BitCook said:

That's anecdotal and your opinion, but I won't make claims you're lying or trying to deceive people.  I just think you like a certain game style that I don't believe in.  So yeah, please give the same courtesy to the people who don't agree with you.  No one is trying to be deceptive that I know of.

I do.  However, to say that roles were better defined when the game was live is inaccurate.

 

1 hour ago, BitCook said:

Now, I've actually laid out why I think support sets and control sets have diminished in power.  I've given numbers and other actual examples why I think that.  It would be really nice if you did the same.  How do you think that the entire spectrum of ATs are valuable when things tend to die within 1-2 rounds of casting?  I am actually very curious as to why you think this, not just that you do.  

I just finished an ITF/STF/LRSF TF train on a team of 8 of all Defenders and Controllers.  I can assure you, there were no "diminished powers" and everyone brought something to the team.  It was also a great deal of fun for all of us.

1 hour ago, BitCook said:

How do you think that the entire spectrum of ATs are valuable when things tend to die within 1-2 rounds of casting?

EBs and AVs are not dying within 1 to 2 rounds of casting.

 

1 hour ago, BitCook said:

If support characters can barely get off more than 1-2 casts in most encounters, what is their value to a team?  Why do you think they are as useful as prior times in the game where encounters lasted significantly longer?

Not being able to land a hit before something dies is as common an occurrence now as it was on live.  You have eight people all shooting at the same things.  What do you expect to happen?  I still appreciate receiving speed boost or Fortitude/AB or whatever buffs someone wants to apply and it is a certainty I am not the only one.  They are icing on the cake to me. 

[Wavicle]

Obviously the Next new set we get won't be a Blaster Secondary, but seriously I would love to get a Staff Fighting variant for Blasters so I can make a King Triton-ish Water/Staff Blaster.

[BitCook]

5 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

I do.  However, to say that roles were better defined when the game was live is inaccurate.

In your opinion of course.

5 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

I just finished an ITF/STF/LRSF TF train on a team of 8 of all Defenders and Controllers.  I can assure you, there were no "diminished powers" and everyone brought something to the team.  It was also a great deal of fun for all of us.

That's great!  I have routinely said that any 8 characters can do anything,  Add a couple maxed blasters/brutes and it might be a different story.  Also... still anecdotal evidence.  But I would agree if you find a team where you have fun, fantastic.  When I am playing control or support characters, I find less and less of those teams, that's my return anecdotal evidence.

5 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

EBs and AVs are not dying within 1 to 2 rounds of casting.

That is about the only content that is not.  EBs still go down stupid fast and the purple patch substantially reduces or removes the place that controls and to a lesser degree debuffs are useful.  That is one of the balance complaints.  On the content that control and or buff/debuffs could really make an impact, the purple patch makes them again not really relevant.

5 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Not being able to land a hit before something dies is as common an occurrence now as it was on live.  You have eight people all shooting at the same things.  What do you expect to happen?  I still appreciate receiving speed boost or Fortitude/AB or whatever buffs someone wants to apply and it is a certainty I am not the only one.  They are icing on the cake to me. 

I agree to that, but the difference is that, and I will admit this is somewhere I do not have numbers to prove it,  (Although I can probably look up some old play videos...)  but anyway, mobs lasted longer.  As I mentioned in an earlier post.  I played Rad a lot.  I remember being able to get out most of the suite of powers on a mob before they died, commonly.  Now, if I play with a team, I can get RI out and they are dead.  Yes, a target can die if the team focuses fire.  But when I say mob, I am talking about the */8 content.  So 10-15 mobs which rarely last past a single buff or maybe two.

[golstat2003]

10 hours ago, Haijinx said:

So let me follow this line of logic. 

 

The game has been arcing towards getting easier by steps pretty much for most of COH's life.  

 

But its the people who want it to be more challenging that are the ones asking for the change? 

 

 

Yes. You want a it to change from the easy mode it's currently in and the direction it's heading in. I'm saying that's fine, but do it as optional difficulty settings. You are asking for it to change from being easy mode, so you're asking for a change.

 

I'm not sure what's hard to follow.

Edited September 28, 2020 by golstat2003

[Mystic_Cross]

I think the overall balance of an MMO is important. Whether it's a Triple-A juggernaut, an obscure Indy or a niche fantasy game that was resurrected on a private server.

 

There are different levels of balance, and it's ok that sometimes things get too far off kilter. But when they do, adjustments eventually need to be made. Obviously I'm not the only one who thinks we're currently in such a place. I think the devs have a good idea on where they want their balance to be, and have set goals to eventually get there. It's probably going to take some time, but it seems to me that they're trying to hit most of the right notes along the way.

 

IMO Tweaks and changes are what keep things fresh and interesting. Buffs, Nerfs... in the end they both open possibilities and end results that may otherwise never come to pass if no action were taken. IOs likely never would have happened without ED, the game may not have even lasted that long. Did ED upset a bunch of people? Undeniably. Did it completely ruin the game? Well, it's still here... and with dedicated and passionate players so... No. The people who didn't throw a hissy and quit, they adapted and the game eventually became better for the change.

 

Changes in any game I'm invested in come with a certain level of fear or apprehension. Some things may be worse, certainly, and some things may be better. My favorite powerset may become unplayable to me after spending hundreds, if not thousands of hours perfecting it. All that time and effort wasted. Of course I'd be pissed off, but that's just where the dice land. Unless you're completely new to gaming or MMOs in general, it should be expected at some point or another. You don't have to like it, but you still have to accept it or move on. Some people can't accept change, but without it everything would become stagnant and unbearably boring. I prefer to try to adapt, and sometimes that makes for pleasant surprises.

 

Personally I have no illusions that I'll agree with everything that may change, but the fact that we're getting updates with new and interesting things at all, let alone with some frequency, speaks volumes to the devs interest and dedication. That it's all being done on a volunteer basis only makes it that much more impressive to me. As does the tolerance for criticism, the willingness to entertain player ideas, and the consideration to implement some of those ideas. All of this has earned at least a percentage of my trust and support for their current and future endeavors. I think the plans, such as they are in the OP look promising. While nothing may be set in stone, it provides a good outline of what direction is intended. I'll save the final verdicts until things are actually available for testing.

[RageusQuitus2]

16 hours ago, Ralathar44 said:

Heck last I heard the overwhelming majority of folks barely messed with the IO system unless I'm misremembering.

 I was actually voted representative of the vast majority by an overwhelming majority.  99.53% use IOs.  Perhaps you should recheck your numbers good sir.

[Haijinx]

2 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

Yes. You want a it to change from the easy mode it's currently in and the direction it's heading in. I'm saying that's fine, but do it as optional difficulty settings. You are asking for it to change from being easy mode, so you're asking for a change.

 

I'm not sure what's hard to follow.

Its easy to follow. 

 

Its just a poor argument. 

 

All of the change before now has been weighted to the character's power level benefit. 

===========

 

I think the inflation in character power should have been balanced by a corresponding inflation in their adversaries power.  At least to an extent. 

 

That it wasn't was a serious oversight.  Why do bad guys never get a counterpoint of IO's or incarnate powers? 

 

Inflation kills MMOs one way or the other.   

[ShardWarrior]

11 hours ago, BitCook said:

In your opinion of course.

It is not an opinion.  Support ATs were always support ATs, melee was melee and ranged was ranged.  Opinion has nothing to do with it.

[ZacKing]

18 hours ago, Naraka said:

I find this argument amusing.  If this were directed at another group who had requirements like sporadic playtimes, unpredictable living arrangements, social anxieties, parental guidance or disabilities so telling them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and socialize, it would seem rather insensitive and dismissive.

 

Perhaps you should merely compromise that some people will not be able to work around some limitations for teaming and difficulty rather than continue to repeatedly beat the drum of "be a go-getter! Look at me, I did it!"  Your position isn't wholly untrue, it just might not be the solution that certain people want.  Arguing if they should accept that solution regardless is on you, however.

Total nonsense and no offense but you're making "feel sorry for me excuses."  the entitlement whining makes me want to puke.  Why should people who can afford the time to play more not benefit from their investment?  This reply sounds like a direct quote from that philosophy of failure, creed of ignorance and gospel of envy Churchill talked about.  Stop blaming others and go and work for what you want.  The most successful people in life at anything aren't crybabies.  they work for it.  get over yourself.

[Haijinx]

The irony of the defenders of keeping the game easy using the "suck it up snowflake" argument is meta-layers thick. 

[ShardWarrior]

8 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

The irony of the defenders of keeping the game easy using the "suck it up snowflake" argument is meta-layers thick. 

Was the game ever not easy?  I cannot remember a time other than maybe launch when no one even had all SOs yet.  Beyond that, content was never difficult. 

[Haijinx]

Just now, ShardWarrior said:

Was the game ever not easy?  I cannot remember a time other than maybe launch when no one even had all SOs yet.  Beyond that, content was never difficult. 

When you get into this sort of Zen posting mode it becomes very hard to engage you.  Call it Rope a Dope or whatever.  Dodge every point and throw it back at people.  

 

You know perfectly well that the addition of IOs and Incarnate powers makes the game *MORE* easy than it was before those things.  

[Ruin Mage]

Fifty pages.

Holy shit.

[ShardWarrior]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

You know perfectly well that the addition of IOs and Incarnate powers makes the game *MORE* easy than it was before those things.  

Of course it does.  I never suggested otherwise.  I am trying to understand when this mythical golden age utopia was where 8 players did not steam roll content or mobs lasted longer than 1 blaster nuke that some are purporting existed.

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, ZacKing said:

Total nonsense and no offense but you're making "feel sorry for me excuses."  the entitlement whining makes me want to puke.  Why should people who can afford the time to play more not benefit from their investment?  This reply sounds like a direct quote from that philosophy of failure, creed of ignorance and gospel of envy Churchill talked about.  Stop blaming others and go and work for what you want.  The most successful people in life at anything aren't crybabies.  they work for it.  get over yourself. 

Wow, the irony is magnificent. 

 

I wasn't making those points because I believe in them (but I'm also not dismissing them). I pointed the arguments out as satire of short-sighted individuals who would spin that logic if things were reversed. If the devs decided to nerf def and AoE's, people would complain how the game is too hard, how it's not casual, how they don't have time to invest and play, how they have work and kids, how they have disabilities and makes the game too unbearable to play. Anything to paint their opposition as bad guys doing harm to the underdog. 

 

I'm not playing sides with that regard, just pointing at the potential hypocrisy and you fell for it pretty hard. If the game became super hard, who do you think would be using that "philosophy of failure" then? 

 

And that you'd go so far as to express disgust kind of shows how emotional a poster you would be in such circumstances. Bravo. 

15 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

No. Keep the base game AS IS. Give others who want it more difficult higher difficulty options. The ones asking for higher difficulty are the ones asking for a change. Let them be the ones to have the option to select the higher difficulty.

 

As the devs have said in other threads it's completely valid to think that the base game should be left as is. Especially since the HC devs intend to keep SOs the main balance point.

So you're not willing to compromise? As is, players that want more difficulty already change their settings so that wouldn't change. You're making the argument that everything should shift around the status quo? You don't find that entitled at all? 

[Ralathar44]

1 hour ago, Shadeknight said:

Fifty pages.

Holy shit.

Yup, that's what happens when there are significant amounts of people of differing perspectives with differing opinions in s game they all love for slightly different reasons.   Most of it is roughly the same dozen posters or so though with 5-6 being a core that is committed beyond even the rest and seems intent on enforcing their personal views on everyone else to the point of downright ignoring or changing the arguments others have made.  (apply that to whoever you wish, matters not really) 

I've pretty much covered everything I wanted to say so I'm mostly a spectator at this point.  This is a discussion, not a debate, there is no win/lose...only a sharing of viewpoints and mine has been shared in full.

Edited September 28, 2020 by Ralathar44

[skoryy]

1 hour ago, Shadeknight said:

Fifty pages.

Holy shit.

Of the same stuff that the same posters have been posting over and over.

Edited September 28, 2020 by skoryy

[RageusQuitus2]

1 hour ago, ShardWarrior said:

Was the game ever not easy?  I cannot remember a time other than maybe launch when no one even had all SOs yet.  Beyond that, content was never difficult. 

Villain respec mission was really hard after launch.  Especially when you consider bad power choices and pugs. 

 

Lrsf was really hard and most succesfull groups had limited ATs allowed.

[ABlueThingy]

 

 

49 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

53 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

When you get into this sort of Zen posting mode it becomes very hard to engage you.  Call it Rope a Dope or whatever.  Dodge every point and throw it back at people.  

 

You know perfectly well that the addition of IOs and Incarnate powers makes the game *MORE* easy than it was before those things.  

Of course it does.  I never suggested otherwise.  I am trying to understand when this mythical golden age utopia was where 8 players did not steam roll content or mobs lasted longer than 1 blaster nuke that some are purporting existed.

I think they're talking about the bolded point below.

 

On 9/27/2020 at 9:28 AM, ShardWarrior said:

 

Yes, it was a challenge.  It still is.  That was not the point.  You keep alluding to this mythical golden age of CoH where scrappers and tanks could not solo GMS or where Empathy was never totally outshined by Kinetics in the late game.  This was never the case even before IOs.  Players were always able to achieve the levels of power they can today, most chose not to due to the price of admission.  Those that did are not much different today.  Why would you be expecting to easily solo and AV on a low damage AT intended for support even today?

 

 

 

 

[BitCook]

1 hour ago, ShardWarrior said:

Of course it does.  I never suggested otherwise.  I am trying to understand when this mythical golden age utopia was where 8 players did not steam roll content or mobs lasted longer than 1 blaster nuke that some are purporting existed.

Pretty much from Launch until about 5-6 issues after IOs, but I could say maybe from ED to 5-6 issues after IOs.  Team wipes and perma-debt were seriously discussed on the game forums as real issues.  Most people didn't take blaster nukes because of the crash.  For someone speaking your opinion as "fact" you are neglecting a lot of the history of CoX.    

I'm assuming there are enough people around from early in the game to remember carnage in the Hollows too.  Frostfire was quite a right of passage.