Game Balance & The Endgame

[ABlueThingy]

1 minute ago, BitCook said:

Pretty much from Launch until about 5-6 issues after IOs, but I could say maybe from ED to 5-6 issues after IOs.  Team wipes and perma-debt were seriously discussed on the game forums as real issues.  Most people didn't take blaster nukes because of the crash.  For someone speaking your opinion as "fact" you are neglecting a lot of the history of CoX.    

I'm assuming there are enough people around from early in the game to remember carnage in the Hollows too.  Frostfire was quite a right of passage.

Pour one out for all my blasters that had all the debt badges before 50

[ShardWarrior]

26 minutes ago, BitCook said:

Pretty much from Launch until about 5-6 issues after IOs, but I could say maybe from ED to 5-6 issues after IOs.  Team wipes and perma-debt were seriously discussed on the game forums as real issues.  Most people didn't take blaster nukes because of the crash.  For someone speaking your opinion as "fact" you are neglecting a lot of the history of CoX.    

I'm assuming there are enough people around from early in the game to remember carnage in the Hollows too.  Frostfire was quite a right of passage.

My recollection is completely different as these were all things that existed for a brief period after launch.   I can recall steam rolling TFs, Hamidon, SFs etc long before IOs were introduced  Frostfire was never all that difficult either.  Cavern of Transcendence or Atta mission maybe, but not Frostfire.

 

30 minutes ago, RageusQuitus2 said:

Villain respec mission was really hard after launch.  Especially when you consider bad power choices and pugs. 

 

Lrsf was really hard and most succesfull groups had limited ATs allowed.

Respec missions were hard when they were launched because they were released broken and even caused server instability issues.

[BitCook]

44 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

My recollection is completely different as these were all things that existed for a brief period after launch.   I can recall steam rolling TFs, Hamidon, SFs etc long before IOs were introduced  Frostfire was never all that difficult either.  Cavern of Transcendence or Atta mission maybe, but not Frostfire.

Okay, we're getting back to the admittance that we're ALL talking opinions on pretty much anything in this thread.  That's a good start.  

While your recollection of the game is that way, there were plenty of people who thought otherwise... and who are not in this thread:
https://cityoftitans.com/comment/129299#comment-129299
https://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php?topic=10039.40 (reply 47)
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Legion_of_Freedom (Halfway down)

I could quote more, but that was with a singular search on Google.  Perma Debt was a thing because Blasters certainly died a lot... they were not the only ATs either, just the AT that highlighted a problem.  Team wipes were regular occurrences and likely kill speeds were significantly lower (although I am working on proof on that.  Watching YouTube videos will probably provide more than just an opinion on that too.

I can't say why you recall it differently, maybe you played classes that didn't dive into debt as much.  Maybe you had a really good group that didn't wipe.  I can think of lots of reasons why you think the way that you did.  However, my recollection, and if you want more links, the recollections of lots of people in the community is pretty much polar opposite of that.

Finally, if you want to talk about the history of the game, here is a great thread that talks about how and why CoX had the design it did particularly when it came to the "Trinity" from Arcana
https://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php?topic=9675.19480 (reply #19481)  It's a really good read about the thoughts of the devs and why things turned out the way they did.

Some specific quotes for people not wanting to read a wall of text:
On what blasters were from those days (IE Perma Debt)
"Blasters were denied decent mitigation all the way up to I24 because, and I'm speaking from direct experience working with the devs on this, in part the stacking rules made it difficult to hand the blasters something that was good enough to help them and not so good it was easy to abuse by stacking."

On the recognition that controllers are game breaking and there control sets being heavily reigned in and not being useful in high end content
"one of the first complaints during testing was that Lambda and BAF heavily deemphasized controllers due to their hard controls being mooted for much of the time."

 

On kill speed differences, can anyone imagining taking 15 minutes to kill a boss now?
"Sure, initially they had low damage, so it could be slow and frustrating to solo a controller.  I once spent fifteen minutes soloing a Jump bot because I ran out of endurance and the only way to keep him from killing me was to just keep Blinding him.  This turned him into a statue unable to attack me while I didn't have enough endurance to do more than nick him occasionally because I needed enough end to keep blinding him.  This was an end of mission boss, mind you."

Edited September 28, 2020 by BitCook

[ShardWarrior]

There were people who felt the game was too easy as well.  Here is a notable quote;

 

"Perhaps play on Easy until you get the grip of things? The AI is very predictable in CoH and not that difficult to beat on highest difficulty. Tip is to not bite off more than you can chew early game. Depending on what faction play learn what the AI throws at you and then counter it. "

 

I am quite certain we can all Google any number of articles and comments made over the years on either side of the coin here.  I can only speak to my own perspective, I just never found the game to be all that hard nor do I remember people I ran with every having difficulty.  I remember Hamidon being a challenge at first, but once we figured out the correct strategy, it was a piece of cake.  We were all struggling with graphics cards that could not handle the VFX more than game mechanics. 

[BitCook]

1 minute ago, ShardWarrior said:

There were people who felt the game was too easy as well.  Here is a notable quote;

 

"Perhaps play on Easy until you get the grip of things? The AI is very predictable in CoH and not that difficult to beat on highest difficulty. Tip is to not bite off more than you can chew early game. Depending on what faction play learn what the AI throws at you and then counter it. "

 

I am quite certain we can all Google any number of articles and comments made over the years on either side of the coin here.  I can only speak to my own perspective, I just never found the game to be all that hard nor do I remember people I ran with every having difficulty.  I remember Hamidon being a challenge at first, but once we figured out the correct strategy, it was a piece of cake.  We were all struggling with graphics cards that could not handle the VFX more than game mechanics. 

I agree... but a couple of points.  My large wall of text reference is not just people.  That's from Arcana... IE of ArcanaTime fame who probably knows more about the mechanics than either of us put together.

The other, only because I want to tease you... your second link is referring to COMPANY of Heroes, not City of Heroes.

I've only opened this line of discussion again because of your assentation earlier that your opinions are facts.  Look, you want something different with the game than I do.  I'm cool with that.  I do feel the need to keep replying when you say things as fact that are opinions without giving reasons for it.  Even when I've provided examples of what I am talking about, I have tried (and maybe failed) to frame them that this is my opinion and give reasons why I think it.

I've told you why I think Support is less valuable and have given you all kinds of things to debate in terms of numbers, kill speeds, and other things.  Pick the ideas apart, and I'm happy to debate and talk about them.  Just saying, "it's wrong" or, "I don't think so" doesn't help this thread and the people working on the game nearly as much to make it better.  I'm still kind of waiting to see if you have specific reasons (and maybe you stated them before and I missed it) on why you think it would be bad (if you do) to make the game harder by default or put in higher difficulty settings or lower the amount of damage done by nearly everyone... basically reduce kill speed to help AT which can be struggling to find a role.

If the answer is, I don't think they are struggling, then I'd love to hear why.  Not just that you do.  If that answer is just, "my experience and feeling" then okay, I can't argue that.  I won't put as much stock in it, but I respect it.  Otherwise we're just spitting in the wind at each other.

[Wavicle]

4 hours ago, Haijinx said:

 Why do bad guys never get a counterpoint of IO's or incarnate powers? 

They do. DA and other Incarnate content has Incarnate level enemies.

[ShardWarrior]

10 minutes ago, BitCook said:

I'm still kind of waiting to see if you have specific reasons (and maybe you stated them before and I missed it) on why you think it would be bad (if you do) to make the game harder by default or put in higher difficulty settings or lower the amount of damage done by nearly everyone... basically reduce kill speed to help AT which can be struggling to find a role.

This does not solve anything other than make the game harder for people who may already find the game difficult.  You can reduce overall damage and defense values and people who are "power gaming" now will find a way to adapt and/or work around it.  History proves this out.  Sure, feel free to add whatever difficulty options and nerf whatever, just be prepared to accept the consequences of those decisions as they may not be what you intended.  It is their version of the game so they can run it however they like.  I have repeated ad nauseam the game could use new, more difficult endgame content designed for and around IOs and incarnates.  There is already plenty of challenging content pre-50.  If you would like to add a higher difficulty setting, go for it.

[ABlueThingy]

12 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

They do. DA and other Incarnate content has Incarnate level enemies.

If I recall the Devs were doing it in cycles.  First they'd introduce super hard incarnate foes, then release the new slot.  Release new iTF, then new slot that makes us a little OP for that iTF.  New iTF that's hard even with the last slot.  New slot to let us more easily beat THAT iTF. And so on. And the game closed on the "New slot" phase so no new, higher difficulty, content was added to contend with the level of power.

 

Or at least that was my recollection

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, ABlueThingy said:

If I recall the Devs were doing it in cycles.  First they'd introduce super hard incarnate foes, then release the new slot.  Release new iTF, then new slot that makes us a little OP for that iTF.  New iTF that's hard even with the last slot.  New slot to let us more easily beat THAT iTF. And so on. And the game closed on the "New slot" phase so no new, higher difficulty, content was added to contend with the level of power.

 

Or at least that was my recollection

Yea that sounds about right.

[BitCook]

2 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

This does not solve anything other than make the game harder for people who may already find the game difficult.  You can reduce overall damage and defense values and people who are "power gaming" now will find a way to adapt and/or work around it.  History proves this out.  Sure, feel free to add whatever difficulty options and nerf whatever, just be prepared to accept the consequences of those decisions as they may not be what you intended.  It is their version of the game so they can run it however they like.  I have repeated ad nauseam the game could use new, more difficult endgame content designed for and around IOs and incarnates.  There is already plenty of challenging content pre-50.  If you would like to add a higher difficulty setting, go for it.

Thank you.  I'm sure you have said it before, I just couldn't recall where.

This at least let's me discuss your idea with you.  I don't expect to change your mind, but I do think this kind of discussion helps the people working on the game maybe consider things they hadnt.

I think the only two disagreements that I have is that I would say, "it makes the game harder for people who may already find the game difficult SOLO" and that I am not sure about the amount of challenging pre-50 content.  For level appropriate characters, yeah, perhaps so.  For any exemplared characters, no.  Which is something they need to account for and figure out.  I love the exemp system... but it causes problems in it's current state too with Attuned IOs.

I have in general thought and think there was still consensus that any 8 level appropriate players will manage and probably wreck any content easily.  I still believe that.  We're in total agreement in designing new challenges around IOs would be good too.

[jdos911]

6 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Why do bad guys never get a counterpoint of IO's or incarnate powers? 

They do.  They're called AVs and they've been in the game since launch.

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

They do. DA and other Incarnate content has Incarnate level enemies.

Incarnate level enemies with a 13% tohit buff that are completely neutered by the level shifts we're granted.

Cuz, fighting +1s in DA for +4 rewards ain't no challenge.

[ZacKing]

3 hours ago, BitCook said:

Pretty much from Launch until about 5-6 issues after IOs, but I could say maybe from ED to 5-6 issues after IOs.  Team wipes and perma-debt were seriously discussed on the game forums as real issues.  Most people didn't take blaster nukes because of the crash.  For someone speaking your opinion as "fact" you are neglecting a lot of the history of CoX.    

I'm assuming there are enough people around from early in the game to remember carnage in the Hollows too.  Frostfire was quite a right of passage.

I remember one of the major reasons for the blaster AoE nerfs and purple patch was because of people nuking stuff in 1 shot.  That's not stuff lasting longer.

[ABlueThingy]

16 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

I remember one of the major reasons for the blaster AoE nerfs and purple patch was because of people nuking stuff in 1 shot.  That's not stuff lasting longer.

That's a good point, last time player power level got that high we did a whole bunch of nerfs

[Saikochoro]

22 hours ago, Troo said:

The game is easy to start but has a lot to learn for new players (but it doesn't block fun). It ebbs and flows a little while leveling.

 

Later in the game it does get too easy if someone is leveraging accolades, set bonuses, incarnates, p2w, base bonuses, etc.

 

However if someone is using maybe 2 of these it not 'too easy'. If they are only using 1 it's definitely not 'too easy'.

 

I think this is true.  Just to build on this a bit. 
 

Honestly, ease of the game is purely opinion based. I have come across people in game that think the game is very hard. Sure, that seems a little weird to me, but I played the game for several years on live and also since HC started. I also have the funds and use MIDs to make very solid builds.

 

Someone who constantly runs T4 incarnated, 500m soft/hard capped, perma hasten, proc’d out builds is going to have a completely different experience than someone using only SOs or even generic IOs. That doesn’t even take into account p2w/base buffs/powers. Someone who has played the game for 10 years is going to know a lot more than someone who is new to the game.
 

Its dangerous territory for any player to unilaterally decide the game is too easy.  Especially if that player is a long time vet of the game that runs uber builds. That really isn’t the case for everyone. 
 

IOs aren’t going away. I doubt incarnates are going away. I do not think the right answer is to make all content harder by putting in wholesale handicaps. I think the best answer is to always have options because not all players experience the game the same way. Not everyone wants a difficult game as is pretty evident given the popularity of council mobs. 
 

One of the better suggestions I’ve seen is to have an all boss/EB/AV notoriety option to apply to various content. The reason I like that is that it opens up an option rather than restricting options to one perspective.  This allows people who think the game is difficult enough, or even too difficult, to focus on lower notoriety difficulties. While the power gamers can focus on harder difficulties. 

 

 

Edited September 28, 2020 by Saikochoro

[Wavicle]

39 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Incarnate level enemies with a 13% tohit buff that are completely neutered by the level shifts we're granted.

Cuz, fighting +1s in DA for +4 rewards ain't no challenge.

Right, I understand, this just goes back to the fact the incarnate system was unfinished. Dark Astoria is designed to give you a challenge while you are building up your incarnate powers and IO build. There is not yet content designed to be challenging after you have all of that, that’s the stuff that has yet to be made. The rest of the game doesn’t need to be changed, we just need that harder content. And perhaps a harder difficulty mode for the existing content, as an option.

Edited September 28, 2020 by Wavicle

[Wavicle]

12 minutes ago, ABlueThingy said:

That's a good point, last time player power level got that high we did a whole bunch of nerfs

Because they wanted us to have to earn that level of power, not just get it with SOs.

[golstat2003]

7 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Its easy to follow. 

 

Its just a poor argument. 

 

All of the change before now has been weighted to the character's power level benefit. 

===========

 

I think the inflation in character power should have been balanced by a corresponding inflation in their adversaries power.  At least to an extent. 

 

That it wasn't was a serious oversight.  Why do bad guys never get a counterpoint of IO's or incarnate powers? 

 

Inflation kills MMOs one way or the other.   

We'll have to agree to disagree. The game was always silly easy. I don't think anything has changed much. Teams were steam rolling during the SO age also.

 

Saying I like the current base difficulty of the game as is is not a poor argument. It's a fact that the difficulty slider is built to give folks who want a higher challenge just that. The base difficulty is just that, the base.

 

I find saying the game should be made difficult for everyone whether they want it or not to be an inherently selfish argument.

Edited September 28, 2020 by golstat2003

[golstat2003]

4 hours ago, Naraka said:

 

So you're not willing to compromise? As is, players that want more difficulty already change their settings so that wouldn't change. You're making the argument that everything should shift around the status quo? You don't find that entitled at all? 

The comprise was the difficulty slider that the devs implemented for those that wanted harder difficulties. New difficulty options can be tacked on there.

 

It's entitled to say the difficulty of the BASE game should change for everyone, whether they want it or not.

[ABlueThingy]

21 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Because they wanted us to have to earn that level of power, not just get it with SOs.

Well, that's not really true.  Because at the time there was no way to "earn" that power at all.  Not for a long time.  The purple patch CRUSHED people.  Tanks used to regularly fight groups of mobs at +8.  That was why the steep drop off was added for anything higher then +4.  Because some players were so powerful it was functionally impossible to challenge them under the existing rules.

 

They nerfed AoEs to stop all the blasters farming, not just the wolf farms.  I remember the wails when it became untenable to Hydra farm because they added ranged attacks to everything. Wolves got Hurl, Monkeys got psi blasts, Hydra got spit, all hellion/skull/troll/etc thugs were given at least one pistol attack , etc.  I forget if they were all ADDED or they just boosted the range.  Wasn't there a -acc added to fly for the same reason?  But all that was done because Blasters could easily fly up and out-range foes and just farm XP all the live long day.

 

ED dropped in issue 6(along with CoV) and IOs didn't come out until Issue 9.  Frankly the backlash against ED would have been minimal if IOs launched with ED

Edited September 28, 2020 by ABlueThingy

[golstat2003]

Let's keep in mind that the devs have said more than once that the base game is still going to balanced around SOs as we discuss.

[golstat2003]

3 minutes ago, ABlueThingy said:

Well, that's not really true.  Because at the time there was no way to "earn" that power at all.  Not for a long time.  The purple patch CRUSHED people.  Tanks used to regularly fight groups of mobs at +8.  That was why the steep drop off was added for anything higher then +4.  Because players were so powerful it was functionally impossible to challenge them under the existing rules.

 

They nerfed AoEs to stop all the blasters farming, not just the wolf farms.  I remember the wails when it became untenable to Hydra farm because they added ranged attacks to everything. Wolves got Hurl, Monkeys got psi blasts, Hydra got spit, all hellion/skull/troll/etc thugs were given at least one pistol attack , etc.  I forget if they were all ADDED or they just boosted the range.  Wasn't there a -acc added to fly for the same reason?  But all that was done because Blasters could easily fly up and out-range foes and just farm XP all the live long day.

 

ED dropped in issue 6(along with CoV) and IOs didn't come out until Issue 9.  Frankly the backlash against ED would have been minimal if IOs launched with ED

I think from what I remember they had the future IO system (at least on paper) in mind while making some of those changes ED-related changes. But unfortunately there was no manpower to get it out anywhere near at the same time as ED.

Edited September 28, 2020 by golstat2003

[ABlueThingy]

1 minute ago, golstat2003 said:

Let's keep in mind that the devs have said more than once that the base game is still going to balanced around SOs as we discuss.

 

Quite.  I agree with them there.  I don't know how possible it even is to rebalance the game around IOs. Or at least to do it before the sun explodes.

 

That said I'm not against arguments saying that future high end content should be balanced around it. 

 

Just now, golstat2003 said:

I think from what I remember they had IOs in mind while making some of those changes. But unfortunately there was no manpower to get it out anywhere near at the same time as ED.

They were working on a post-50 advancement system to let us continue to gain power and basically needed ED to kneecap us first.  If you're already at the damage cap and Acc cap and Def cap and Rech cap... what is +3.5 Melee Def or 7% rech from an IO going to be worth to you?

 

I remember it changed a lot, one of the iterations was a skills based system for sciencey research, detectiveing, etc.  It eventually mutated into IOs/Crafting...

 

...I would love a detective system...

 

19 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

Saying I like the current base difficulty of the game as is is not a poor argument. It's a fact that the difficulty slider is built to give folks who want a higher challenge just that. The base difficulty is just that, the base.

 

I find saying the game should be made difficult for everyone whether they want it or not to be an inherently selfish argument.

 

You can reverse that argument.  The game has always swung around with harder or easier content added.  Nerfs and buffs to the base game.  Isn't it selfish to tell that from now on the game can ONLY get easier, when in the past it changed all the time? That this here and now is the new base difficulty and it can't be made harder from here on out.  I think some people could see that as very selfish as well.

 

19 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

We'll have to agree to disagree. The game was always silly easy. I don't think anything has changed much. Teams were steam rolling during the SO age also.

...Now see, like, I typed all that but I don't want to end on it.  Because I don't actually want to see the observable base difficulty to really raise that much.  I agree that this game has, for most any kind of team and a lot of solo players, for the majority of the life of this game, been easy.  Not always, not in every mission or against every villain group, not for every AT and powerset at all times.  But it was fun and exciting most of the time, I think.

 

But for the sake of discussion...

 

if it was easy to steamroll in the past, and now we are objectively more powerful in all measurable ways... I don't think nerfs to the most powerful, over-preforming, sets would actually make people unable to steamroll.  You'd have to butcher a set to make a character weaker then the pre-IO days.

 

If the game was always easy and you could steam roll things durring the SO era and now in the IO/Incarnate era people are even stronger... as long as you don't remove more power then people gained since the SO era people will still be able to steamroll and be powerful.  Right?  X+10 -5 is still X+5.  As long as X alone was enough then X+5 should still be enough.

 

That makes sense, right? 

 

 

 

[YIP]

I have a very different perspective than many here:

 

The primary reason I play this game is that there is lots of content that is accessible for my 4 year old and I to duo, and occasionally trio with his 5 year old cousin. We would never have played the grindy game that was issues 6-10 or so on live servers.  I rely heavily on incan destiny and prestige tp powers to move the kids around zones and difficult-to-navigate maps, and in order to make toons playable for the kids I have to cut out any powers with a crash or location targeting. 

 

I know a dozen other players or so that play extensively with their young children, so I am not alone in this.  While I could not care less about titan weapons or AT modifiers or any of that technical stuff, I would like for my son and I to be able to play the existing content with our current toons without needing to research powers and respec them.  I don't want to have to create custom easy AE arcs so that the kids  don't get "beated up" on minimum difficulty.

 

I don't expect the devs to bend over backwards to accommodate people in my situation, but they should recognize that there is a sizable portion of the server that is completely uninterested in any additional challenges, grindiness, or barriers to accessing content.

[Haijinx]

42 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

Let's keep in mind that the devs have said more than once that the base game is still going to balanced around SOs as we discuss.

Yeah.  That's where they fucked up.