Game Balance & The Endgame

[GM Tock]

Did some cleanup of posts that were off-topic as well as some Code of Conduct violations.

Carry on.

[ShardWarrior]

14 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

I should host a build challenge where people intentionally make a useless character, it's a lot harder than some people here seem to understand.

 

Mercs are the closest thing that come to mind.

My favorites are people doing stuff like the Petless MMs!  You would think this would not be fun at all, but there are people out there enjoying it and more power to them!

[FUBARczar]

6 hours ago, laudwic said:

In a game in which players look to every possible advantage, it is certainly appropriate to look at how popular a set is, especially in groups that seek optimization such as farming.  If a set that is considered to be out of balance is not utilized in those areas, it is certainly a valid question as to why.

Yeah I wonder why, if TW is sooooo OP, it does not dominate in many settings such as farming, on speed teams, etc.???

 

6 hours ago, Ralathar44 said:

and never was there a time where you NEEDED support characters to clear content. 

What?  Yeah tell that to all the people who wouldn't run X or Y without a healers.  Maybe it wasn't actually needed, but it was the perception.  And perception is king (sometimes anyway).  Not only that it's what they desired, like their security blanket.

[ABlueThingy]

2 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

 I can introduce you to several people who will make any AT/power set combo viable and fun to play.

Do you believe there exists any specific AT/Power combos that, when introduced to a specific team of 7 other players using specific builds cannot noticeably change the outcome of the mission?  Doesn't raise the clear time by a noticeable amount, a few percentage points maybe.  Doesn't reduce the damage incoming to the team by enough to change any of the tactics or outcomes.

 

As an example, a team of 7 level 50 Fire/TA Blasters with maxed out Incarnate slots and high quality IO builds.  They're all at the soft cap or beyond for all their def and floating around the cap for their resistances.  Their recharge is so wild they can, as a group, drop 2-5 nova/judgements per enemy group.

 

And lets say a Kin/Regen scrapper joins the team.  He's also a maxed out incarnate. Maxed out IO build. The player is literally the greatest Kin/Regen player to have ever walked the earth.  He's so good he can use Kinetic melee in real life.  Is there any kind of build, any kind of set bonuses or tactics that he can do that would make a noticeable dent in the Blaster's strategy?  The entire mob group is instantly obliterated weather he's there or not.  He can try and get aggro before they attack and be a tank but their speed and recharge is at least on par to his and what point does that serve?  The mobs never live long enough to even return fire.  Maybe every 90s he can pull off a judgement too, assuming they didn't hit their attacks first.  But that's just the Incarnate stuff, the bulk of his character is redundant.  Compared to them, he is not super.

 

You could remove the Incarnate stuff, lets say it's just plain level 50 content and no incarnate stuff allowed.  That really just put him worse off.  The main advantage of Kin is the power draining and he'll never get that off the ground.  The main advantage of regen is how well it takes sustained damage, it's terrible for burst.  But all he's going to see here is burst damage.  Because they all die before a second shot goes off.

 

Mostly he's just going to be a passive observer.  I don't know a lot of people that would consider that fun or viable.  Maybe you do and more power to you.

 

Now this is an extreme example but there are less extreme versions, I think you'll find a large number of the people here have experienced something similar. And the math is on their side.  Some of these sets are just objectively better and some of them, in combination, are so good as to render large swaths of this game irrelevant.

 

You can't buff this stuff away. We're running up against the actual mechanic caps in the game.  Something has to give.

 

 

 

 

[ScarySai]

2 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

My favorites are people doing stuff like the Petless MMs!  You would think this would not be fun at all, but there are people out there enjoying it and more power to them!

I say we nerf them because they operate outside of my arbitrary parameters.

[skoryy]

I feel like something that's missed in all this discussion about balance is how far more lucrative trash mob farming is here as opposed to pretty much every other MMO, or at least the ones I'm familiar with.  From my experiences in Guild Wars 2, FFXIV, and the dreaded WoW, trash mobs were speed bumps that you go through to get the real rewards from varying forms of mission completion.  I feel there was an attempt to correct that issue here with stuff like reward merits and how incarnate content was run back in live, but they never really could correct that without aggravating the players.  And now with issue 25, we've kinda blown that all out of the water regardless.

[ZacKing]

3 minutes ago, ABlueThingy said:

You can't buff this stuff away. We're running up against the actual mechanic caps in the game.  Something has to give.

What has to give is the stupid idea that globally nerfing everyone to make a few feel good is going to fix the problem without pissing a large group off. It's not going to solve the problem because people are still going to hit the ceiling.  people aren't soloing +4 x 8 at level 20 or 30 like they are at 50.  Make new harder content balanced around high powered 50s maxxed out with IOs in mind.  raise the ceiling, don't lower it.

 

6 minutes ago, ABlueThingy said:

I don't know a lot of people that would consider that fun or viable. 

What's keeping you on that team then?  You.

[xl8]

4 hours ago, ABlueThingy said:

Sometimes nerfs make you more super.

I'm with you there, but we're talking about TW which doesn't perform as outrageously as people seem to think.

And as someone who does drop a billion (averages 700 mill) on each toon, I can honestly say that every type is still performing well when fully kitted out. Yes, even PBs - mine is an all human beats. The discrepancy that is between players' skills and those who don't use ATO and IOs. And just to cover the bases, the argument for the haves and have nots is redundant. I went from 0 to a billion in less than 2 weeks.

[WindDemon21]

55 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

I don't make as many proc monsters as some, but I am worried about what may become of procs.  I would suggest some kind of diminishing returns such that one or two procs are essentially left as is but each additional proc after that would have a reduction of either damage or chance.

This. In general I feel like proca should be left alone, and the PPM especially shouldn't change. But as I gather the abuse comes from having 3 or more DAMAGE procs per power more than anything else. This by far seems like the best idea, where more than 2 damage procs per power should have diminishing returns. Kinda like proc ED.

[BZRKR]

1 hour ago, KeepDistance said:

I have a TW tank and I feel the same. I have been wondering if there is some trick to managing momentum that other players know about and I don't, that would somehow transform the set into an overperforming one. Or, it might be the difference between tanks and scrappers. My only other tank is War Mace which according to other posts is also overpowered...

Here's the trick:

Practice using mouse look to swing the camera around and look at the mission situation while the slow animations are playing. Really take note of where the enemies are, where the other players are, where any glowies that need clicking are, what info is being displayed on the Nav window, how much beverage is left in you computer cup, what your snack levels and composition are at that time, whether you need to turn on a light in the room, whether or not you can tell if the delivery man has pulled into the drive way, whether or not the dryer is still running, and if you have any spare Red inspitations to click...

 

...and then MASH WHIRLING SMASH! QUEUE UP FOLLOW UP! QUEUE UP TITAN SWEEP! Combat jump into the next group!

 

And then take a moment to see if build momentum is up and if it is, hit that and maybe Whirling Smash into Radiation Therapy into another Whirling Smash and by then probably reposition again, taking into account where the enemies are, where the other players are, where any glowies that need clicking are... etc

🙂

[skoryy]

Also I feel what is also missed is that if the mob pile is half-dead, there's nothing preventing anyone with a solid build from moving on to the next pile and having some fun.  I do it all the time, even with my more squishier characters.  There's something to the feeling of being able to hold the fort down just long enough for the cavalry to arrive.

[HelBlaiz]

It seems like the fact that the devs WANT to make new challenging endgame content is exactly why they're doing a balance pass on outliers is being over looked. They want to make sure every AT/powerset combo can manage to complete whatever it is they're making without trivializing it. So anything that would be impossible to succeed in the hypothetical new content is being brought up to respectable performance, while anything so good it could breeze through without issue is being tweaked downward.

 

This isn't about nerfing sets to make people happy, it is to make sure they can create content that is both challenging yet fair for everyone going forward, regardless of powersets. WITHOUT making three separate difficulty tiers for low/mid/high tier combos.

Edited September 25, 2020 by HelBlaiz
autocorrect, I swear to dog! God!

[BZRKR]

3 minutes ago, HelBlaiz said:

It seems like the fact that the devs WANT to make new challenging endgame content is exactly why they're doing a balance pass on outliers is being over looked. They want to make sure every AT/powerset combo can manage to complete whatever it is they're making without trivialities it. So anything that would be impossible to succeed in the hypothetical new content is being brought up to respectable performance, while anything so good it could breeze through without issue is being tweaked downward.

 

This isn't about nerfing sets to make people happy, it is to make sure they can create content that is both challenging yet fair for everyone going forward, regardless of powersets. WITHOUT making three separate difficulty tiers for low/mid/high tier combos.

Absolutely! And that is why, as a fairly dedicated Titan Weaponeer, I am pleased to see the word "rework" from the Devs, and hope to spend time on the beta server testing stuff.

In addition, I am prepared to adapt to the possibility that where they put Titan Weapon isn't fun for me anymore. I mean, we get 1000 character slots and free re-names, my main is going to be fine.

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, BZRKR said:

Absolutely! And that is why, as a fairly dedicated Titan Weaponeer, I am pleased to see the word "rework" from the Devs, and hope to spend time on the beta server testing stuff.

In addition, I am prepared to adapt to the possibility that where they put Titan Weapon isn't fun for me anymore. I mean, we get 1000 character slots and free re-names, my main is going to be fine.

"Rework" seems to be code for fundamentally changing it's nature and stripping it of uniqueness.  As I said before, but it is worth repeating, Momentum is not a QoL issue, not even in the slightest.  It is a characteristic that gives the set uniqueness, and gives a feel that is thematically appropriate.  

 

On 9/21/2020 at 5:58 AM, Number Six said:

However, there's also a mechanics change to Momentum that is a fairly big deal QoL-wise and hopefully will make the set less frustrating to play.

[Wavicle]

10 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

"Rework" seems to be code for fundamentally changing it's nature and stripping it of uniqueness. 

 

This is a claim with no justification supplied.

[Wobegone]

50 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

What has to give is the stupid idea that globally nerfing everyone to make a few feel good is going to fix the problem without pissing a large group off. It's not going to solve the problem because people are still going to hit the ceiling.  people aren't soloing +4 x 8 at level 20 or 30 like they are at 50.  Make new harder content balanced around high powered 50s maxxed out with IOs in mind.  raise the ceiling, don't lower it.

 

What's keeping you on that team then?  You.

I think you're underestimating the number of players who don't power game and overestimating the number of players who are vehemently anti-nerf power gamers.  That's why the Devs have suggested balance.  It's also something I think the majority of players agree with.  There isn't some malicious group of players and devs who want to nerf everyone to 'make a few feel good'.  Also, adjusting a few powersets, as has been stated numerous times in this thread, is far easier and more efficient than raising the ceiling on everything.  

Edited September 25, 2020 by Ignatz the Insane

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, Ralathar44 said:

IOs were definitely waaaayy before the theoretical blaster changes.  However IOs were incredibly difficult to obtain compared to HC today.  I played alot more time on live and was running in mainly common IOs with a few franken sets being on my most played characters.  I've been back to HC for about 3 months now and while I've played ALOT (prolly too much lol) it's no more than I used to and all my level 25 characters are running franken sets the moment they hit 25.  The difference in ease of acquisition was night and day.  I don't know what changes HC made but I can find and afford set IOs infintiely easier than I did on live even having to build myself back up from scratch again.

It was actually rare for me to run into non-tank/brute/occassional scrapper who could eat +3/8 aggro much less +4/8.  On HC today "squishies" do it all the time.  I still remember a Lizard man Incarnate Controller (fire/kin) being able to solo +2/8 without any risk and getting upset if the difficulty went over that because he'd actually start dying 😛.  He was temperamental but on my friends list.  He was one of the more powerful squishies at the time, im not saying there were not squishies more powerful than him but he was more powerful by a large margin than the vast majority of controllers his level.  Which is ironically why I kept him on my friends list.  He liked having an excuse to run missions and show off and I liked having the ability to gain a few levels from time to time on struggling toons looking to hit key powers.

The main change to easier acquisition of IOs were the seeding of the market, enhancement converters. (Though I think converts came at the end of live, so folks didn't really get to take full advantage of them.) Enhancement converters make it stupidly easy to make inf. Also the costs on merit vendors were reduced I believe.

[Ralathar44]

59 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

What?  Yeah tell that to all the people who wouldn't run X or Y without a healers.  Maybe it wasn't actually needed, but it was the perception.  And perception is king (sometimes anyway).  Not only that it's what they desired, like their security blanket.

Yeah I'd push back against that idea just as strongly as I do against the idea that supports are in a fine place currently.  Doubly so once the ability to choose your difficulty level was in game.  Some people are just too stubborn/prideful to drop their difficulty level.  Like if you do 3 hard team wipes then you drop the difficulty unless its a team agreement to take on the challenge.  If you're just taking some damage and having the occasional down here and there you don't need a support, that's a mission you can handle if you tighten up your play and maybe pull from time to time.

[golstat2003]

54 minutes ago, BZRKR said:

Here's the trick:

Practice using mouse look to swing the camera around and look at the mission situation while the slow animations are playing. Really take note of where the enemies are, where the other players are, where any glowies that need clicking are, what info is being displayed on the Nav window, how much beverage is left in you computer cup, what your snack levels and composition are at that time, whether you need to turn on a light in the room, whether or not you can tell if the delivery man has pulled into the drive way, whether or not the dryer is still running, and if you have any spare Red inspitations to click...

 

...and then MASH WHIRLING SMASH! QUEUE UP FOLLOW UP! QUEUE UP TITAN SWEEP! Combat jump into the next group!

 

And then take a moment to see if build momentum is up and if it is, hit that and maybe Whirling Smash into Radiation Therapy into another Whirling Smash and by then probably reposition again, taking into account where the enemies are, where the other players are, where any glowies that need clicking are... etc

🙂

LMAO! Captures what it's like to play TW perfectly! You forgot go out and get coffee though. 😛

[golstat2003]

58 minutes ago, skoryy said:

Also I feel what is also missed is that if the mob pile is half-dead, there's nothing preventing anyone with a solid build from moving on to the next pile and having some fun.  I do it all the time, even with my more squishier characters.  There's something to the feeling of being able to hold the fort down just long enough for the cavalry to arrive.

Apparently some folks think there is something wrong with this play style. That the teams should just move from group to group as one. all the time.  I find that boring.

Edited September 25, 2020 by golstat2003

[golstat2003]

32 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

"Rework" seems to be code for fundamentally changing it's nature and stripping it of uniqueness.  As I said before, but it is worth repeating, Momentum is not a QoL issue, not even in the slightest.  It is a characteristic that gives the set uniqueness, and gives a feel that is thematically appropriate.  

 

Yeah no. Well unless the thematically appropriate feel is slow as molasses. Momentum is just terrible. There are better mechanics out there that can be used.

Edited September 25, 2020 by golstat2003

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

This is a claim with no justification supplied.

just what little they are saying.  Someone whines about about momentum and then a GM points to " mechanics change to Momentum"  But I suppose you're right it's baseless.   

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, FUBARczar said:

just what little they are saying.  Someone whines about about momentum and then a GM points to " mechanics change to Momentum"  But I suppose you're right it's baseless.   

It is baseless. Nothing Number Six said suggests or implies that it’s going to radically alter the set to be completely unrecognizable. That was all you.

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, golstat2003 said:

Yeah no. Well unless the thematically appropriate feel is slow as molasses. Momentum is just terrible. There are better mechanics out there that can be used.

yes just clone tidal forces, or something else already used elsewhere, wait I know just turn whirling smash into whirlwind with damage.  Seriously though it's in the name "TITAN Weapons", it makes sense that it takes some time to build up momentum as one swings a massive object.

[Ralathar44]

1 hour ago, ZacKing said:

What has to give is the stupid idea that globally nerfing everyone to make a few feel good is going to fix the problem without pissing a large group off. It's not going to solve the problem because people are still going to hit the ceiling.  people aren't soloing +4 x 8 at level 20 or 30 like they are at 50.  Make new harder content balanced around high powered 50s maxxed out with IOs in mind.  raise the ceiling, don't lower it.

TBH I have no preference how the problem is fixed, so long as it's fixed.  I think part of the problem here though is that IO sets are such a massive factor.  Rebalancing them would take forever and yet they are the single largest thing skewing balance out of whack at 50.  Most level 50 content is an appropriate challenge for franken slotting without the set bonuses involved.  You'd prolly be running +2/+3 with only the best groups running +4.  IO's shift that instantly to +4.  The Incarnate (mainly the alpha slot with the level shift) are on top of that.

OFC the problem you run into is if you balance the new harder content around IO powered 50s with likely incarnates....non-IO min/maxed 50s get REKT and non-incarntes will prolly struggle.  It took time,  iteration, and alot of man hours to get into this state.  It's take just as much time, iteration, and man power to cleanly remedy this state.  If not more.


My personal feeling is that being able to soft cap stats via sets alone is way too much benefit from set bonuses and if it was up to me I'd make the range between tiny set bonuses and ultimate set bonuses smaller by a good bit, reigning in the top end.  But that's not something I'm going to fight for to change, I've accepted that is just how it is.  I just don't like it when your set bonuses can provide just as much benefit as an entire defensive power set.  So we've dug ourselves into this hole, and we have the sunk cost fallacy in full swing, now we gotta design our way out of it.