Game Balance & The Endgame

[Wavicle]

What I'm saying is, they probably aren't going to make Radios any more challenging. Support toons can focus on attacks throw buffs and debuffs only as needed there. But by balancing powersets (to the extent it can be done) they make it possible to generate more challenging future content.

[Ralathar44]

20 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

What you're describing is a problem with the content and the mechanics of the game, not individual ATs or powersets.

Yes this has been said by me quite directly like half a dozen times already among others too.  This is part of why online conversation is so poor, everyone catches bits and pieces of the conversation and often the context is lost and individual comments are reduced down an inaccurate interpretation.  Everything is this disconnected sound byte that then gets processed through someone's biases and whatever is on their mind atm.  Affects you, affects me, affects us all.  Not to mention the dehumanization where people often are not interacted with as if they are people, the way people would behave face to face, because of both the disconnect from body language/expression/tone/etc and the anonymity factor.

Here's the most recent time I said exactly what you just told me and it's literally on the same page as your reply: 

  

1 hour ago, Ralathar44 said:

TBH I completely agree, I don't think the problem is that support sets are weak with perhaps 1-3 exceptions.  I think the problem is that the ability for their strengths to matter is stepped all over by fully IO'd high level characters.  They still have great power in survivability and utility, but that additional survivability and utility simply is not valuable anymore in most of the high level content.

It's kinda like a scrapper being on a team full of blasters.  Yeah you're not weak but you'll barely ever touch a mob so it doesn't matter.  Now imagine most teams were full of blasters lol.

 

The problem isn't necessarily the ATs themselves, there is individual stuff in need of nerfing/buffing sure but it's not causing the issue of supports and crowd control losing significant amounts of their usefulness in large swathes of level 30+ content.  The problem is that the vast VAST majority of the 30+ content was not designed for the levels of powers that IO sets bring.  Much less IO sets stacked with incarnate level shifts.

That's why I'm not seeking buffs or nerfs to any specific AT or power set.  Because the problem is bigger than that.  It's not a powerset or AT problem even if some power sets or ATs are disproportionately affected.

Edited September 26, 2020 by Ralathar44

[Wavicle]

Ok, well we disagree on that. I think the issue is a few underpowered powersets and one or two ATs, not the vast majority of the game.

Edited September 26, 2020 by Wavicle

[Ralathar44]

Just now, Wavicle said:

What I'm saying is, they probably aren't going to make Radios any more challenging. Support toons can focus on attacks throw buffs and debuffs only as needed there. But by balancing powersets (to the extent it can be done) they make it possible to generate more challenging future content.

They literally can't make most of the currently run level 30+ content harder, because if they do then everyone who isn't a power game IO setting out will be destroyed.  The power gap between the haves and have nots in that regard is quite ludicrous indeed.  Same AT, same powerset, same level, IO sets vs common IOs is night and day and sets are very much a power gamer area only a portion of the community heavily participates in.

[golstat2003]

1 minute ago, Ralathar44 said:

Yes this has been said by me quite directly like half a dozen times already among others too.  This is part of why online conversation is so poor, everyone catches bits and pieces of the conversation and often the context is lost and individual comments are reduced down an inaccurate interpretation.  Everything is this disconnected sound byte that then gets processed through someone's biases and whatever is on their mind atm.  Affects you, affects me, affects us all.  Not to mention the dehumanization where people often are not interacted with as if they are people, the way people would behave face to face, because of both the disconnect from body language/expression/tone/etc and the anonymity factor.

Here's the most recent time I said exactly what you just told me and it's literally on the same page as your reply: 

  

 

The problem isn't necessarily the ATs themselves, there is individual stuff in need of nerfing/buffing sure but it's not causing the issue of supports losing significant amounts of their usefulness in large swathes of level 30+ content.  The problem is that the vast VAST majority of the 30+ content was not designed for the levels of powers that IO sets bring.  Much less IO sets stacked with incarnate level shifts.

That's why I'm not seeking buffs or nerfs to any specific AT or power set.  Because the problem is bigger than that.  It's not a powerset or AT problem even if some power sets or ATs are disproportionately affected.

Yeah I don't think they're going to be able to tackle the problem IOs bring to level 30+ content. (I actually don't consider that we can steam roll anything from 1-45 a problem).

 

I think they're focus is going to be on the higher level areas.

 

There is only so much dev time we have with such a small team. I don't see a team this size being able to tackle all of the level 1-50 game. 

 

It simply isn't realistic.

[golstat2003]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

Ok, well we disagree on that. I think the issue is a few underpowered powersets and a couple ATs, not the vast majority of the game.

Even if the problem is the vast majority of the game (I don't agree with that at all) there is no way a team this size of unpaid volunteers will be able to tackle even the 30-50 part of the game. It's simply not realistic.

 

Well they could, if we're willing to wait for anything new until a decade or two from now.

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, Ralathar44 said:

They literally can't make most of the currently run level 30+ content harder, because if they do then everyone who isn't a power game IO setting out will be destroyed.  The power gap between the haves and have nots in that regard is quite ludicrous indeed.  Same AT, same powerset, same level, IO sets vs common IOs is night and day and sets are very much a power gamer area only a portion of the community heavily participates in.

I don't want any of the 30-50 content to be harder. I only want there to be more content at 50+ that is harder. That is to say, more Incarnate content. Make Kallisti Wharf an Incarnate zone with mobs and arcs. Make new iTrials.

Edited September 26, 2020 by Wavicle

[golstat2003]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

I don't want any of the 30-50 content to be harder. I only there to be more content at 50+ that is harder.

Pretty much where I am. I literally nowadays even with power leveling spend at most a week or less in that range. Yes, many folks don't have 50s, but I don't think they spend all that long in that range even if they don't have 50s. With altitis a thing I'd say more spend it in the PRE-30s.

[Wavicle]

Just now, golstat2003 said:

With altitis a thing I'd say more spend it in the PRE-30s.

That's where I am, a bunch of 50s, a bunch of toons currently moving through the 30s and 40s and a ton more toons in the 20s waiting their turn.

[Ralathar44]

15 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

Yeah I don't think they're going to be able to tackle the problem IOs bring to level 30+ content. (I actually don't consider that we can steam roll anything from 1-45 a problem).

 

I think they're focus is going to be on the higher level areas.

 

There is only so much dev time we have with such a small team. I don't see a team this size being able to tackle all of the level 1-50 game. 

 

It simply isn't realistic.

Yup, it's a rock and a hard place.  It took awhile to bloom into the full issue but the live team of CoH left the devs quite a pickle to try and navigate around.   From earlier in this thread it's clear that there is a significant portion of at least the forum going readership that absolutely loved feeling that overpowered as well so there is a split community on what is desired, which is honestly pretty common in game dev.   They'll get pushback either way lol.  Prolly not from me though, this is a pivotal junction, which is why this thread exists, and so this is where I put my feedback.  Unless something is particularly on fire with the path forwards chosen I'll just adapt to it and avoid the trouble spots in the game the best I can.

A quick look at the AT numbers from the statistics thread paints a clear picture that people are playing supports and control less than ever before.  Support/CC is normally underplayed in most MMORPGs, City of Heroes was a rare exception in that regard and especially post ED support and crowd control were super common, Definitely more common than they are now.


Folks in this thread are very defensive, but I wonder if they realize I've never actually proposed any changes.  I've never called for any nerfs or indeed any buffs either!  All I've done is said "this is an issue and this is why".  The unenviable task of finding a way around it falls to the devs :(.  There are no easy answers here, the situation is too much of a cluster.  I'm realistic. They get love and hugs from me just from tackling this beast and my thanksl for doing everything they do :).

Edited September 26, 2020 by Ralathar44

[ShardWarrior]

14 hours ago, Ignatz the Insane said:

I think you're underestimating the number of players who don't power game and overestimating the number of players who are vehemently anti-nerf power gamers.  That's why the Devs have suggested balance.  It's also something I think the majority of players agree with.  There isn't some malicious group of players and devs who want to nerf everyone to 'make a few feel good'.  Also, adjusting a few powersets, as has been stated numerous times in this thread, is far easier and more efficient than raising the ceiling on everything.  

Criticizing someone for not having accurate data with your own wild suppositions is hypocritical.  People can be a power gamer or not and be anti-nerf either way.  Again, adjusting power sets is one thing, people in this very thread who have specifically called for global levels nerfs, complete removal of incarnate content and the like is entirely different. 

[ShardWarrior]

14 hours ago, Ralathar44 said:

OFC the problem you run into is if you balance the new harder content around IO powered 50s with likely incarnates....non-IO min/maxed 50s get REKT and non-incarntes will prolly struggle.  It took time,  iteration, and alot of man hours to get into this state.  It's take just as much time, iteration, and man power to cleanly remedy this state.  If not more.

Why would you expect people going into newly designed content balanced around IOs and incarnates to do well only in SOs?  Many MMOs have raid tiers where you need to have a certain gear level in order to run it.  This is not a foreign concept and the game already has this to an extent where incarnates need to be unlocked to run iTrials. 

 

14 hours ago, Ralathar44 said:

My personal feeling is that being able to soft cap stats via sets alone is way too much benefit from set bonuses and if it was up to me I'd make the range between tiny set bonuses and ultimate set bonuses smaller by a good bit, reigning in the top end.  But that's not something I'm going to fight for to change, I've accepted that is just how it is.  I just don't like it when your set bonuses can provide just as much benefit as an entire defensive power set.  So we've dug ourselves into this hole, and we have the sunk cost fallacy in full swing, now we gotta design our way out of it.

Is it better/more fun to use various power pools and IO bonuses to attempt to soft cap defense on a blaster or is it going to be more fun to team with a defender who will get you there, leaving you more options for primary power picks to fulfill your primary role?  That is up to the individual, which it should be in my opinion.

[Lockpick]

8 hours ago, Ralathar44 said:

Folks in this thread are very defensive, but I wonder if they realize I've never actually proposed any changes.  I've never called for any nerfs or indeed any buffs either!  All I've done is said "this is an issue and this is why". 

You keep preaching this issue and others don't see it as an issue because there are in game mechanics and community solutions to solve your problem.  Frankly, your stamina in repeating your position over and over again is amazing.  I had pulled away from this thread because I basically had said all I had to say, but you seem willing to continue advocating your position until everyone else gets tired of responding.  I guess that is one way to get what you want, but you aren't really convincing people (me at least) that are opposed to your position.

 

[Sovera]

I'll say what I've said in the past: CoH is the Path of Exile of MMOs.  People play it and love it to against a screenful of enemies and obliterate them.

 

Now WoW (and others) follow a different approach where we enter a dungeon and all enemies are elites. Fights can take up to a minute per pack. We do it in 10-15 seconds.

 

Some simple things that would help would be an all boss (no more minion, lieutenant and bosses. Instead all become bosses, and bosses turned into EBs, mebbe?) difficulty setting that mimics the elites of WoW. Now suddenly everything hits hard and defenses, CC, buffs and debuffs matter. I can only speak for myself but I would be much more interested in running something on that difficulty and have everyone contributing to reap the extra XP and raw inf.

 

As long as the common pack of enemies consists in 50% minions that get wiped in a single AoE volley then those foundations are not stable to build on.

[skoryy]

11 minutes ago, Sovera said:

I can only speak for myself but I would be much more interested in running something on that difficulty and have everyone contributing to reap the extra XP and raw inf.

Probably would need better rewards for wiping out an all boss team, too.

[Lockpick]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

I'll say what I've said in the past: CoH is the Path of Exile of MMOs.  People play it and love it to against a screenful of enemies and obliterate them.

 

Now WoW (and others) follow a different approach where we enter a dungeon and all enemies are elites. Fights can take up to a minute per pack. We do it in 10-15 seconds.

 

Some simple things that would help would be an all boss (no more minion, lieutenant and bosses. Instead all become bosses, and bosses turned into EBs, mebbe?) difficulty setting that mimics the elites of WoW. Now suddenly everything hits hard and defenses, CC, buffs and debuffs matter. I can only speak for myself but I would be much more interested in running something on that difficulty and have everyone contributing to reap the extra XP and raw inf.

 

As long as the common pack of enemies consists in 50% minions that get wiped in a single AoE volley then those foundations are not stable to build on.

This seems like it would be a good solution for the people that have concerns that the game is to easy.  They could set their difficulty settings to +4/8 with all Bosses and get the difficulty they want.  Of course, they could probably get that right now by creating AE missions with these type of parameters.

[Sovera]

1 minute ago, Lockpick said:

This seems like it would be a good solution for the people that have concerns that the game is to easy.  They could set their difficulty settings to +4/8 with all Bosses and get the difficulty they want.  Of course, they could probably get that right now by creating AE missions with these type of parameters.

People can create AE missions with those parameters. But they cannot play content with them. And we have a -lot- of content. I see Linea advertising for their 'AE missions purpose tailored to be extra hard, not a farm' and someone once in a while will zing them that 'is it really not a farm if you do it 4-5 times a day every day?'.

 

Same deal here. We can create a mission with those parameters. And then be stuck playing it over and over. But can we duplicate the large swathe of content that exists in the game in the AE?

[Lockpick]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

People can create AE missions with those parameters. But they cannot play content with them. And we have a -lot- of content. I see Linea advertising for their 'AE missions purpose tailored to be extra hard, not a farm' and someone once in a while will zing them that 'is it really not a farm if you do it 4-5 times a day every day?'.

 

Same deal here. We can create a mission with those parameters. And then be stuck playing it over and over. But can we duplicate the large swathe of content that exists in the game in the AE?

 

I would hazard a guess we are all playing the same content over an over.  I play the same TFs to get Task Force Commander, I play Smoke and Mirrors multiple times on all my characters for quick merits, I play ITF and other high level TFs for XP, and I play Incarnate content for Incarnate rewards.  There is only so much of this to go around, so of course, you end up playing the same content over and over.  As a matter of fact, you start running the same content based on reward per mission to be most efficient.  I would argue that rebalancing the reward system is much more important than wholesale balancing of ATs and power sets.

 

"Can we create the can we duplicate the large swath of content that exists in the game in the AE?"  I believe we can.  There are tons of good content already in AE, but my guess based on my own play style is people do not play it because the rewards are not good enough.  I'll play AE missions occasionally, but that is mainly to see new story content.  I certainly don't play AE missions for rewards (beyond Farming occasionally). 

 

That is why I keep harping on a solution around AE.  If you focus on AE and provide the proper reward structure you will get people playing more of those missions.  The things I would do are:

• Adjust AE to add more tags and filters, so players can find appropriate content
• Devs should probably clean up AE and disable missions where the creators are no longer active and the mission is not getting traction
• Create Community AE mission contests with the help of community volunteers
• Reward badges and merits for creating and testing content to incentivize players
• Take the content that is lore based and fits the parameters of what the HC team believe are appropriate from a complexity, lore, difficulty standpoint and tag it as Canon content
  • Set parameters that limit the ability to game the system for inappropriate rewards
    • Only provide rewards at completion of the mission
    • Ensure that there are different enemy types in each mission and sets of missions, so if doesn't become a defacto farm
• Once content is tagged as Canon it becomes Dev content, so the creator can no longer make adjustments not approved by Devs
• Give Canon content the same rewards as TFs and Incarnate missions (i.e. reward merits, threads, shards, Astral Merits, EMPs. etc.)
  • Balance the rewards based on appropriate reward levels and adjust as needed
  • If you find that everyone is playing the Council AE mission over and over because they are a weak enemy, lower the rewards
• The Devs can also make some of the AE Content WSTs to get players to play it

 

These adjustments will provide many benefits:

• It should be relatively easy to implement because most of the work is focused on getting the Community to create and test
• It should be relatively easy to maintain (Devs may have to balance rewards occasionally if the data calls for it)
• It puts more focus on AE and players will realize it is not just for farming
• Content of many different levels of complexity will be created that should alleviate the concern of players that think the game is to easy because they will be able to play the hard mode content they crave
• You will never run out of new content, which is always the issue with a MMO
• People will likely play the content because they are getting the rewards they need for progression
• It will bring the community closer together because we will be working together to create and test content
• The Devs will not have to worry about creating content and can focus on incremental adjustments, bug fixes, new power sets, etc.
• Players will be able to more effectively "own" their play experience as opposed to expecting the Devs to manage their play experience
• It doesn't cause anger from balancing ATs/power sets to get to some whole game balance (which is impossible in this environment, IMO) that will negatively impact what I would think are a large percentage of the palyerbase that are not power gamers and min/maxers looking for challenge

 

Edited September 26, 2020 by Lockpick
Added WST bullet

[Wavicle]

2 hours ago, Sovera said:

I'll say what I've said in the past: CoH is the Path of Exile of MMOs.  People play it and love it to against a screenful of enemies and obliterate them.

 

Now WoW (and others) follow a different approach where we enter a dungeon and all enemies are elites. Fights can take up to a minute per pack. We do it in 10-15 seconds.

 

Some simple things that would help would be an all boss (no more minion, lieutenant and bosses. Instead all become bosses, and bosses turned into EBs, mebbe?) difficulty setting that mimics the elites of WoW. Now suddenly everything hits hard and defenses, CC, buffs and debuffs matter. I can only speak for myself but I would be much more interested in running something on that difficulty and have everyone contributing to reap the extra XP and raw inf.

 

As long as the common pack of enemies consists in 50% minions that get wiped in a single AoE volley then those foundations are not stable to build on.

Yes, but such content needs to be level 50 minimum.

[Wavicle]

30 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

 

I would hazard a guess we are all playing the same content over an over.  I play the same TFs to get Task Force Commander, I play Smoke and Mirrors multiple times on all my characters for quick merits, I play ITF and other high level TFs for XP, and I play Incarnate content for Incarnate rewards.  There is only so much of this to go around, so of course, you end up playing the same content over and over.  As a matter of fact, you start running the same content based on reward per mission to be most efficient.  I would argue that rebalancing the reward system is much more important than wholesale balancing of ATs and power sets.

 

"Can we create the can we duplicate the large swath of content that exists in the game in the AE?"  I believe we can.  There are tons of good content already in AE, but my guess based on my own play style is people do not play it because the rewards are not good enough.  I'll play AE missions occasionally, but that is mainly to see new story content.  I certainly don't play AE missions for rewards (beyond Farming occasionally). 

 

That is why I keep harping on a solution around AE.  If you focus on AE and provide the proper reward structure you will get people playing more of those missions.  The things I would do are:

• Adjust AE to add more tags and filters, so players can find appropriate content
• Devs should probably clean up AE and disable missions where the creators are no longer active and the mission is not getting traction
• Create Community AE mission contests with the help of community volunteers
• Reward badges and merits for creating and testing content to incentivize players
• Take the content that is lore based and fits the parameters of what the HC team believe are appropriate from a complexity, lore, difficulty standpoint and tag it as Canon content
  • Set parameters that limit the ability to game the system for inappropriate rewards
    • Only provide rewards at completion of the mission
    • Ensure that there are different enemy types in each mission and sets of missions, so if doesn't become a defacto farm
• Once content is tagged as Canon it becomes Dev content, so the creator can no longer make adjustments not approved by Devs
• Give Canon content the same rewards as TFs and Incarnate missions (i.e. reward merits, threads, shards, Astral Merits, EMPs. etc.)
  • Balance the rewards based on appropriate reward levels and adjust as needed
  • If you find that everyone is playing the Council AE mission over and over because they are a weak enemy, lower the rewards
• The Devs can also make some of the AE Content WSTs to get players to play it

 

These adjustments will provide many benefits:

• It should be relatively easy to implement because most of the work is focused on getting the Community to create and test
• It should be relatively easy to maintain (Devs may have to balance rewards occasionally if the data calls for it)
• It puts more focus on AE and players will realize it is not just for farming
• Content of many different levels of complexity will be created that should alleviate the concern of players that think the game is to easy because they will be able to play the hard mode content they crave
• You will never run out of new content, which is always the issue with a MMO
• People will likely play the content because they are getting the rewards they need for progression
• It will bring the community closer together because we will be working together to create and test content
• The Devs will not have to worry about creating content and can focus on incremental adjustments, bug fixes, new power sets, etc.
• Players will be able to more effectively "own" their play experience as opposed to expecting the Devs to manage their play experience
• It doesn't cause anger from balancing ATs/power sets to get to some whole game balance (which is impossible in this environment, IMO) that will negatively impact what I would think are a large percentage of the palyerbase that are not power gamers and min/maxers looking for challenge

 

This idea has merit, but I Hope most new content has doors Outside the AE building.

[golstat2003]

4 hours ago, Sovera said:

I'll say what I've said in the past: CoH is the Path of Exile of MMOs.  People play it and love it to against a screenful of enemies and obliterate them.

 

Now WoW (and others) follow a different approach where we enter a dungeon and all enemies are elites. Fights can take up to a minute per pack. We do it in 10-15 seconds.

 

Some simple things that would help would be an all boss (no more minion, lieutenant and bosses. Instead all become bosses, and bosses turned into EBs, mebbe?) difficulty setting that mimics the elites of WoW. Now suddenly everything hits hard and defenses, CC, buffs and debuffs matter. I can only speak for myself but I would be much more interested in running something on that difficulty and have everyone contributing to reap the extra XP and raw inf.

 

As long as the common pack of enemies consists in 50% minions that get wiped in a single AoE volley then those foundations are not stable to build on.

I would play the hell out of this mode. As I mentioned, I'm interested in high level play/content, not making the base game more difficult.

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

This idea has merit, but I Hope most new content has doors Outside the AE building.

If they could have the AE missions have doors in different zones like regular missions that would be fun.

[Haijinx]

18 hours ago, Ralathar44 said:

TBH I completely agree, I don't think the problem is that support sets are weak with perhaps 1-3 exceptions.  I think the problem is that the ability for their strengths to matter is stepped all over by fully IO'd high level characters.  They still have great power in survivability and utility, but that additional survivability and utility simply is not valuable anymore in most of the high level content.

It's kinda like a scrapper being on a team full of blasters.  Yeah you're not weak but you'll barely ever touch a mob so it doesn't matter.  Now imagine most teams were full of blasters lol.

At level 50 with a decent build or better a character basically spends their entire time bouncing on the rail for chance to hit the enemy and the opposite rail for chance for enemy to hit them.  

 

They typically have copious amounts of Recharge and added damage, added Recovery, near Double Build-up boost (due to Guassians), etc.     

 

The game is based on random die rolls.   There isn't a whole lot of random left when you have 95% chance to hit and 5% chance to be hit. 

 

And when you live at the rails, there is a lot less for Support to do.    

[Haijinx]

16 hours ago, Ralathar44 said:

Yup, it's a rock and a hard place.  It took awhile to bloom into the full issue but the live team of CoH left the devs quite a pickle to try and navigate around.   From earlier in this thread it's clear that there is a significant portion of at least the forum going readership that absolutely loved feeling that overpowered as well so there is a split community on what is desired, which is honestly pretty common in game dev.   They'll get pushback either way lol.  Prolly not from me though, this is a pivotal junction, which is why this thread exists, and so this is where I put my feedback.  Unless something is particularly on fire with the path forwards chosen I'll just adapt to it and avoid the trouble spots in the game the best I can.
 

Nah.  The war is over.  Has been over.  The Overpowered / Game is too damn easy side won.  

 

Its actually sort of funny to watch the "everything is fine" lobbyists try and hold the floor to fend off any nerfs to be honest, like there is anything for them to really worry about.  

 

Any adjustments to difficulty or reductions in sets like Titan Weapons will be tokens at best. 

 

But.   It shouldn't be that way.  So those who want the game to be harder speak up every now and again.  Its kind of like people who don't want the music that was popular when they were in high school to be called "Oldies" even if the stuff IS over 30 years old.   All those songs are OLDIES.  Deal with it.  Calling them "Classic" doesn't change that. 

[ShardWarrior]

3 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

If they could have the AE missions have doors in different zones like regular missions that would be fun.

That is a fantastic idea!