Game Balance & The Endgame

[Lockpick]

6 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

No. I want nothing short (and apologies to my SG for this who have stated plainly that they disagree) of the complete removal of all level shifts for players and enemies from the game.

 

+4 should be +4, full stop.

But why not add +5, +6, and +7 notoriety levels, so you get back to +4 when you have a +3 level shift?  Might need some changes to the purple patch as well, but likely would be much easier than making a bunch of balance changes.

 

By the way, you do realize that player like you and @nihilii and a few others in this thread are in the top 1% of 1% of players, right?  You guys tackle challenges that very few would attempt.  I have a number of 50s, semi-min/max builds, T4 incarnates, and I cannot do some of the stuff you guys are accomplishing.  If I (as an example) am in the top 10% of power gamers that means you guys are the gods of power gamers, but I expect 90% of the population are not power gamers.  Numbers straight from my 4th point of contact, but I think the thought behind it is accurate.

 

 

[Haijinx]

41 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

Currently in big teams there is no need for a tank. Just brings doms or trollers and you are fine. Make some mobs immune to holds and agro on anyone that tries to hold them, like was done to healers in Katie Hannon. That way you need tanks or brutes. Or if you want to play the holy trinity, you could always go play a game that already forces that.

There is no need for anything right now, including teammates. 

 

Not at 54x8 normal buff levels 

 

Not for most content. 

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

11 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

So you arent interested in modifying your own difficulty, you want to run other peoples gaming experiences...

I'm interested in balance.

[Bill Z Bubba]

12 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

Rather than totally remove Level Shifts I think they should apply only to iTrials. The iTrials feature enemies who have their own level shifts, so they are balanced for it.

 

The tech already exists to flag a level shift as conditional based on the zone, it is currently used by Lore and Destiny. I think that needs to be applied to Alpha level shift and Dark Astoria de-tagged as an "incarnate zone." That would fix a lot. The DA content is actually pretty good, but fighting +1 enemies and getting +4 rewards from it shouldn't be a thing.

But it is if you keep the current situation in place.

 

Remove the level shifts. Keep the +13% tohit buff and whatever other buffs they get for being incarnate baddies, choose +4 and they are +4 and that's that.

[Bill Z Bubba]

6 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

But why not add +5, +6, and +7 notoriety levels, so you get back to +4 when you have a +3 level shift?  Might need some changes to the purple patch as well, but likely would be much easier than making a bunch of balance changes.

 

By the way, you do realize that player like you and @nihilii and a few others in this thread are in the top 1% of 1% of players, right?  You guys tackle challenges that very few would attempt.  I have a number of 50s, semi-min/max builds, T4 incarnates, and I cannot do some of the stuff you guys are accomplishing.  If I (as an example) am in the top 10% of power gamers that means you guys are the gods of power gamers, but I expect 90% of the population are not power gamers.  Numbers straight from my 4th point of contact, but I think the thought behind it is accurate.

Sounds to me like a lot more work than just removing the shifts completely.

[Haijinx]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

And yet I consider +4/x8 to be the standard difficulty level for maxed out characters while being one of the people calling for a more balanced game.

 

It's almost as if blanket statements about other players are often false.

Perhaps it would have made more sense for SOLO players at the elite build level to be able to take on either level 54 or at even level x8.

 

Instead of both.  

 

Its a shame that control over power level inflation was completely lost.  

 

 

 

[Wavicle]

19 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

No. I want nothing short (and apologies to my SG for this who have stated plainly that they disagree) of the complete removal of all level shifts for players and enemies from the game.

 

+4 should be +4, full stop.

Well that’s clearly not going to happen.

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Well that’s clearly not going to happen.

And tanks clearly didn't need a damage buff.

[Haijinx]

I admit the status quo is very convenient,  after all when I'm asked to stealth ahead in a task force, I don't need to worry about ATT being up.

 

I can just solo the whole end room by myself.

 

But that probably isn't how the game should be.

 

 

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

And tanks clearly didn't need a damage buff.

Seems like a non sequitur.

[Haijinx]

Just now, Wavicle said:

Seems like a non sequitur.

Read the last 10 or so pages of the Tank Gods thread.  Its actually very relevant.

[Lockpick]

19 hours ago, Haijinx said:

 But when people wonder why COH feels console cheats easy we shouldn't pretend like its some mystery.  

A few power gamers feel the game is this easy.  I doubt if the larger overall population believes this and even if some do believe it is easy I don't believe they would advocate for wholesale changes to make the game harder.  They probably like it as it is.

 

19 hours ago, Haijinx said:

There is no need for anything right now, including teammates. 

 

Not at 54x8 normal buff levels 

 

Not for most content. 

 

 

This is not true for most players.  For this to be true you have to be:

• A power gamer with enough time to level to 50
• Have a strong AT and power set combo with enough damage and survival mechanisms
• Min/Max builds with IO sets costing north of $300M inf
• Incarnates

My buddy that I mentioned earlier in the thread does not even have one 50 and his highest level build may have a few IOs from sets.  He is not doing +4/8 solo.  I expect there are many more players like him than there are players like us (power gamers).

 

On another note, we keep talking about incarnates and high level content lack of challenge.  I look at my play style and 90% of my gaming in CoH is leveling 1 to 50.  I spend a bit of time at 50 to get T4 incarnates, but then I start an alt.  Basically, my play time is mostly spent in the base game.  Why would we change the entire leveling game experience to solve some lack of challenges that min/max 50s are having?  Why not just make new level 50 content that is harder?

 

The guys here that are advocating making the game harder are not explaining it well enough for me to understand why I and others like me who like the game as is should want the entire game harder because a few power gamers want a challenge at end game.

 

Edited October 13, 2020 by Lockpick
Spelling

[Haijinx]

2 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

You guys are falling into that "We forum regulars and MIDS gurus are typical Joe Average players"-trap again...

As time goes on the typical player build will become more and more powerful.

 

Anecdotally its already happening, sampling the set bonus spam of other characters get longer and longer.  

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Seems like a non sequitur.

Not even a little bit.

 

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Lockpick said:

A few power gamers feel the game is this easy.  I doubt if the larger overall population believes this and even if some do believe it is easy I don't believe they would advocate for wholesale changes to make the game harder.  They probably like it as it is.

 

 

This is not true for most players.  For this to be true you have to be:

• A power gamer with enough time to level to 50
• Have a strong AT and power set combo with enough damage and survival mechanisms
• Min/Max builds with IO sets costing north of $300M inf
• Incarnates

My buddy that I mentioned earlier in the thread does not even have one 50 and his highest level build may have a few IOs from sets.  He is not doing +4/8 solo.  I expect there are many more players like him than there are players like us (power gamers).

 

On another note, we keep talking about incarnates and high level content lack of challenge.  I look at my play style and 90% of my gaming in CoH is leveling 1 to 50.  I spend a bit of time at 50 to get T4 incarnates, but then I start an alt.  Basically, my play time is mostly spent in the base game.  Why would we change the entire leveling game experience to solve some lack of challenges that min/max 50s are having?  Why not just make new level 50 content that is harder?

 

The guys here that are advocating making the game harder are not explaining it well enough for me to understand why I and others like me who like the game as is should want the entire gamer harder because a few power gamers want a challenge at end game.

 

QFT

[Lockpick]

11 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Sounds to me like a lot more work than just removing the shifts completely.

I don't know how much work it would be, but I can speculate on what the outcome would be and that would be players migrating to other options.  When you take stuff away from players who believe they earned them through the existing rules to satisfy a minority of other players you get one group of players pissed at another group.

 

It's not worth it IMO.  I don't think this change would be as bad as ED and some of the other nerfs from Live, but it would be a significant nerf that few people would likely appreciate.

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Not even a little bit.

 

So what's being shown here is NOT that Tanks are OP, but rather the same thing many of us have been saying, the power level we've been given is FINE but we need either new content with higher difficulty or more difficulty settings with higher difficulty.

The fact that tanks with maxed out level 50 builds can solo a TF designed for players level 35-50 is not shocking or even a problem. The problem is that a lvl 35-50 TF is still considered max level content when it shouldn't be.

[Haijinx]

2 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

A few power gamers feel the game is this easy.  I doubt if the larger overall population believes this and even if some do believe it is easy I don't believe they would advocate for wholesale changes to make the game harder.  They probably like it as it is.

 

 

This is not true for most players.  For this to be true you have to be:

• A power gamer with enough time to level to 50
• Have a strong AT and power set combo with enough damage and survival mechanisms
• Min/Max builds with IO sets costing north of $300M inf
• Incarnates

My buddy that I mentioned earlier in the thread does not even have one 50 and his highest level build may have a few IOs from sets.  He is not doing +4/8 solo.  I expect there are many more players like him than there are players like us (power gamers).

 

On another note, we keep talking about incarnates and high level content lack of challenge.  I look at my play style and 90% of my gaming in CoH is leveling 1 to 50.  I spend a bit of time at 50 to get T4 incarnates, but then I start an alt.  Basically, my play time is mostly spent in the base game.  Why would we change the entire leveling game experience to solve some lack of challenges that min/max 50s are having?  Why not just make new level 50 content that is harder?

 

The guys here that are advocating making the game harder are not explaining it well enough for me to understand why I and others like me who like the game as is should want the entire gamer harder because a few power gamers want a challenge at end game.

 

Im on my phone atm so sorry for quoting all of this.  

 

You probably low on the 300 mil estimate.  Most of my level 50 retirees end up at that level, and they really aren't in the solo 54x8 class without at least some help.  

 

At a billion inf though, its a snap.  

 

There is no IO decay, there are no maintenance costs, etc.

 

The only check on people reaching that level is boredom altitis or a lack of focus.  

 

A billion isn't even that much.  If you solo through arcs to 50 you'll be halfway there.  

[Bionic_Flea]

I still think that we don't need any major changes to the way player or critter powers work, or a major nerfing of IOs, or any other game-changing depowering of players.  All we need is to add the Ouro and TF difficulty settings to regular content with some token  reward for the extra difficulty.

 

That and perhaps new incarnate level critters with buffs, debuffs, and more challenging AI (if possible).

[skoryy]

9 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

The guys here that are advocating making the game harder are not explaining it well enough for me to understand why I and others like me who like the game as is should want the entire gamer harder because a few power gamers want a challenge at end game.

Everyone's dug in on this topic like it's 1917 on the Western Front, and they're absolutely convinced the next artillery barrage over No Man's Land will be the one that'll win the war.

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

So what's being shown here is NOT that Tanks are OP, but rather the same thing many of us have been saying, the power level we've been given is FINE but we need either new content with higher difficulty or more difficulty settings with higher difficulty.

The fact that tanks with maxed out level 50 builds can solo a TF designed for players level 35-50 is not shocking or even a problem. The problem is that a lvl 35-50 TF is still considered max level content when it shouldn't be.

Oh horseshit. It's not a case of X being able to solo Y. It's a case of X being able to solo Y at the max diff, with no inspirations, with enemies buffed with +50% acc and damage and ZERO deaths.
It's a prime example of the ridiculous power creep that this game suffered from for years BEFORE the shutdown.

[Haijinx]

3 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

So what's being shown here is NOT that Tanks are OP, but rather the same thing many of us have been saying, the power level we've been given is FINE but we need either new content with higher difficulty or more difficulty settings with higher difficulty.

The fact that tanks with maxed out level 50 builds can solo a TF designed for players level 35-50 is not shocking or even a problem. The problem is that a lvl 35-50 TF is still considered max level content when it shouldn't be.

You should read more carefully.

 

They can solo that task force at max difficulty, with BUFFED enemies.

 

In times it used to take teams to do it at +0

[Lockpick]

5 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Not even a little bit.

 

 

Thank you for supporting my points from earlier in the thread.  I agree that Tankers are now OP.  This is what happens when you have wholesale balance changes.  Now we have to have more balance changes so other ATs can get to the level of Tankers.  Then we need more balance changes so the new Flavor of the Month under performing set now meets the new performance metrics.  It never ends, which leads to my point that we should leave well enough alone and only target clearly under performing or over performing sets.

 

The development time would be much better spent providing value in new sets, new power pools, and solving the player created end game content challenges.

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

6 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

I don't know how much work it would be, but I can speculate on what the outcome would be and that would be players migrating to other options.  When you take stuff away from players who believe they earned them through the existing rules to satisfy a minority of other players you get one group of players pissed at another group.

 

It's not worth it IMO.  I don't think this change would be as bad as ED and some of the other nerfs from Live, but it would be a significant nerf that few people would likely appreciate.

A little pain for a much more stable "world" seems a small price to pay.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, Lockpick said:

Thank you for supporting my points from earlier in the thread.  I agree that Tankers are now OP.  This is what happens when you have wholesale balance changes.  Now we have to have more balance changes so other ATs can get to the level of Tankers.  Then we need more balance changes so the new Flavor of the Month under performing set now meets the new performance metrics.  It never ends, which leads to my point that we should leave well enough alone and only target clearly under performing or over performing sets.

 

The development time would be much better spent providing value in new sets, new power pools, and solving the player created end game content challenges.

Wrong. This is what happens when balance changes are incorrectly applied.

Change is not the problem.