Game Balance & The Endgame

[Ralathar44]

31 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

To put it more clearly.

 

You have a Max Difficulty Setting of standard buffed level opposition.  +4 level, Equivalent to 8 standard heroes. 

 

That should not be a SOLO setting. 

That is indeed how game design works. 

Logically if someone wanted to feel like a god and wade through enemies they could LOWER difficulty settings to +0 or -1.  They could get that easy gameplay and overpowered feeling they want without running max difficulty content.  But they don't ask for that, because they are being disingenuous and it's not actually about feeling like a god in gameplay or playing an easy game.  They want to be broken in the current state of the game.   It's some weird psychological thing, they don't want easy content...they want to break the game.  They are fundamentally opposed to proper gameplay balance for that reason.

Again, if it was just about having an easy game they'd utilize the current difficulty options to set +0 or -1 rather than fight to be able to continue to cakewalk anything on +4/8.  That's literally why difficulties exist, so that most people can play the default game and the people looking for more challenge can play a harder game.  But in COH they've decided that all difficulties belong to people who say they want to play an easy game, ironically removing the entire point of difficulties.

Edited October 12, 2020 by Ralathar44

[Bill Z Bubba]

17 minutes ago, Ralathar44 said:

That is indeed how game design works. 

Logically if someone wanted to feel like a god and wade through enemies they could LOWER difficulty settings to +0 or -1.  They could get that easy gameplay and overpowered feeling they want without running max difficulty content.  But they don't ask for that, because they are being disingenuous and it's not actually about feeling like a god in gameplay or playing an easy game.  They want to be broken in the current state of the game.   It's some weird psychological thing, they don't want easy content...they want to break the game.  They are fundamentally opposed to proper gameplay balance for that reason.

Again, if it was just about having an easy game they'd utilize the current difficulty options to set +0 or -1 rather than fight to be able to continue to cakewalk anything on +4/8.  That's literally why difficulties exist, so that most people can play the default game and the people looking for more challenge can play a harder game.  But in COH they've decided that all difficulties belong to people who say they want to play an easy game, ironically removing the entire point of difficulties.

And yet I consider +4/x8 to be the standard difficulty level for maxed out characters while being one of the people calling for a more balanced game.

 

It's almost as if blanket statements about other players are often false.

[Coyotedancer]

You guys are falling into that "We forum regulars and MIDS gurus are typical Joe Average players"-trap again...

[Bill Z Bubba]

51 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

The other way around. 

 

Almost no one should be able to.  

 

That is the setting for big teams, right? 

 

49 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

To put it more clearly.

 

You have a Max Difficulty Setting of standard buffed level opposition.  +4 level, Equivalent to 8 standard heroes. 

 

That should not be a SOLO setting. 

Why *almost* no one? Why hedge your statement? Either we can or we can't.

 

If we can, why can we is the question.

If we can't, why can't we is the question.

 

If we shouldn't ... I don't care about that word. Lots of things in the universe *should* be one way or the other and aren't.

 

The only way to get to what you have stated here is a complete and global nerf.

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

You guys are falling into that "We forum regulars and MIDS gurus are typical Joe Average players"-trap again...

If we're all just edge cases then what we can do doesn't matter does it?

 

Might as well spend some cycles bringing about balance within and between archetypes and powersets. It'll bring up the bad performers, bring down the over the top performers and then Joe Average will have an even better time because he'll have to think about even less while playing.

[nihilii]

15 hours ago, summers said:

I think it's safe to say that this community is intensely, almost hysterically, resistant to change. 

That seems unfair. We're at least equal parts conservative hystery (as a group, resisting the changes anyone else proposes) and self-absorbed new-is-always-better (as individuals, when it comes to our own changes).

[golstat2003]

3 minutes ago, nihilii said:

That seems unfair. We're at least equal parts conservative hystery (as a group, resisting the changes anyone else proposes) and self-absorbed new-is-always-better (as individuals, when it comes to our own changes).

LOL Seriously though MOST of the changes HC has introduced have been pretty welcomed. (Notice I said MOST. Posting this caveat before someone says “Datk Melee would like a word”.)

[BZRKR]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

The other way around. 

 

Almost no one should be able to.  

 

That is the setting for big teams, right? 

No, it's the setting for enemies that are +4 level, and spawned as if a team of 8 were present. Whether it's "for" any specific kind of team is left out of the interface.

[Naraka]

53 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

And yet I consider +4/x8 to be the standard difficulty level for maxed out characters while being one of the people calling for a more balanced game.

 

It's almost as if blanket statements about other players are often false.

Purely depends on your perspective. +4/x8 is the standard difficulty level for maxed out characters NOW... But in the past it was more for specifically meta min/max builds as well as moderately good teams /teams with some buffing. 

 

All in all, I can perceive the perspective of most opinions here, it's just entertaining to see the mental gymnastics when you put forgot certain points that have to be logikt away. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Purely depends on your perspective. +4/x8 is the standard difficulty level for maxed out characters NOW... But in the past it was more for specifically meta min/max builds as well as moderately good teams /teams with some buffing. 

 

All in all, I can perceive the perspective of most opinions here, it's just entertaining to see the mental gymnastics when you put forgot certain points that have to be logikt away. 

I just find it sad that so many think logic is the enemy of chaos.

 

Change is neither good nor bad. Our species, in general, reacts poorly to change but it took change to get us out of the oceans and more change to get us down from the trees and a whole ton of change for us to set foot on another piece of our solar system.

 

Being resistant to change is often far more negative than the change itself.

[ivanhedgehog]

6 hours ago, Phoenix' said:

There are plenty bubblers in the game, they just sit on the side because barrier makes em useless. 

People will never stop running MSR.... 

 

 

People dont sit out MSRs because of incarnates. There are any number of sets that are suboptimal for that content, yet they are present in almost every raid.

[ivanhedgehog]

2 hours ago, Haijinx said:

The other way around. 

 

Almost no one should be able to.  

 

That is the setting for big teams, right? 

Currently in big teams there is no need for a tank. Just brings doms or trollers and you are fine. Make some mobs immune to holds and agro on anyone that tries to hold them, like was done to healers in Katie Hannon. That way you need tanks or brutes. Or if you want to play the holy trinity, you could always go play a game that already forces that.

[ivanhedgehog]

1 hour ago, Ralathar44 said:

That is indeed how game design works. 

Logically if someone wanted to feel like a god and wade through enemies they could LOWER difficulty settings to +0 or -1.  They could get that easy gameplay and overpowered feeling they want without running max difficulty content.  But they don't ask for that, because they are being disingenuous and it's not actually about feeling like a god in gameplay or playing an easy game.  They want to be broken in the current state of the game.   It's some weird psychological thing, they don't want easy content...they want to break the game.  They are fundamentally opposed to proper gameplay balance for that reason.

Again, if it was just about having an easy game they'd utilize the current difficulty options to set +0 or -1 rather than fight to be able to continue to cakewalk anything on +4/8.  That's literally why difficulties exist, so that most people can play the default game and the people looking for more challenge can play a harder game.  But in COH they've decided that all difficulties belong to people who say they want to play an easy game, ironically removing the entire point of difficulties.

They can leave the current game as is and add a difficulty setting and have you adjust your play to meet your challenge needs. Or they can change the whole game to suit you and make others try to mitigate the changes.....which is the best use of limited resources?

[oedipus_tex]

In fairness to the folks who are fine with where the currently difficulty level lies, running at +4/x8 produces superior rewards to running at lower difficulties. They may feel that the rate of XP and influence generated at +4/x8 is the reasonable rate toons should get in normal play. So, I can understand some anxiety when the discussion turns to making things harder.

 

Solo performance is less an issue for me right now than 'splash' or 'incidental' buffs like the AoE buffs in Destiny. No one really plans their builds around this and I think it's one of the safest places to explore taming buffs.

 

A lot has been said about Destiny sidelining the buff/debuff sets. It's worth adding that this is at least partly intentional. It's made this way so that iTrials aren't dominated by teams of Defenders and Corruptors, who on a team of 24 or 32 would have an outsized impact. That's a fine design for iTrials and partly why I think Destiny's AoE buffs are appropriate there. Unfortunately, it bleeds out into the pre-i game with the same effect. The AoE anti-mezz in Force Field and Sonic Resonance used to give those sets something. Now you can get that from a Blaster or Scrapper so why bother?

Edited October 12, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Bill Z Bubba]

6 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

In fairness to the folks who are fine with where the currently difficulty level lies, running at +4/x8 produces superior rewards to running at lower difficulties. They may feel that the rate of XP and influence generated at +4/x8 is the reasonable rate toons should get in normal play. So, I can understand some anxiety when the discussion turns to making things harder.

 

Solo performance is less an issue for me right now than 'splash' or 'incidental' buffs like the AoE buffs in Destiny. No one really plans their builds around this and I think it's one of the safest places to explore taming buffs.

 

A lot has been said about Destiny sidelining the buff/debuff sets. It's worth adding that this is at least partly intentional. It's made this way so that iTrials aren't dominated by teams of Defenders and Corruptors, who on a team of 24 or 32 would have an outsized impact. That's a fine design for iTrials and partly why I think Destiny's AoE buffs are appropriate there. Unfortunately, it bleeds out into the pre-i game with the same effect. The AoE anti-mezz in Force Field and Sonic Resonance used to give those sets something. Now you can get that from a Blaster or Scrapper so why bother?

All true.

 

And also points to why level shifts are garbage. I get max diff rewards while only fighting +1s in DA. I get that they were designed to be tougher than normal spawns, but they're not tougher *enough* because the level shift is far greater than the buffs they have as enemies... but only when the level shifts are present. Fight those same spawns without levels shifts and yes, they are noticeably tougher than PI spawns.

[oedipus_tex]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

And also points to why level shifts are garbage. I get max diff rewards while only fighting +1s in DA. I get that they were designed to be tougher than normal spawns, but they're not tougher *enough* because the level shift is far greater than the buffs they have as enemies... but only when the level shifts are present. Fight those same spawns without levels shifts and yes, they are noticeably tougher than PI spawns.

 

You nailed it.

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

You nailed it.

Wish I didn't find it to be true but I do. Removing level shifts completely from the game should be the first step toward an overhaul toward balance. Yes, that includes all the enemies that get lvl shifts while you fight them like Praetor Sinclair in Belladonna's arc.

 

Edit: And, yes, I did solo him at +4 (+7 by the end of it) on a freaking sentinel that was +3ed.

Edited October 12, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[nihilii]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I get that they were designed to be tougher than normal spawns, but they're not tougher *enough* because the level shift is far greater than the buffs they have as enemies...

I find Banished Pantheon brutal, even at "+1"/x8, and well in league with the hardest "+3"/x8 of other factions.

Ancients of... something, the radiation attack ones, are the culprit. Lieutenants and bosses, they both bring massive defense debuffs. Many of my characters who handle +4/x8 against most factions will fold against some BP groups. I blink and suddenly I'm at -50% defense, and all sorts of OTHER debuffs and damage start piling up and kill me in a split second.

 

Very few enemy groups do that at "+3"/x8, let alone "+1"/x8. Awakened, PPD...

It is quite a treat to play that old "Close the dimensional ruptures" mission from Unai Kemen on +4/x8. New Banished Pantheon mobs, no level shifts save for alpha. An excellent stress test most of my characters do NOT pass without severe inspiration usage.

[Wavicle]

57 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

LOL Seriously though MOST of the changes HC has introduced have been pretty welcomed. (Notice I said MOST. Posting this caveat before someone says “Datk Melee would like a word”.)

The Shadow Maul change is fantastic. The only complaints about DM are from the whiners who thought that they were entitled to the Dark Consumption change.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, nihilii said:

I find Banished Pantheon brutal, even at "+1"/x8, and well in league with the hardest "+3"/x8 of other factions.

Ancients of... something, the radiation attack ones, are the culprit. Lieutenants and bosses, they both bring massive defense debuffs. Many of my characters who handle +4/x8 against most factions will fold against some BP groups. I blink and suddenly I'm at -50% defense, and all sorts of OTHER debuffs and damage start piling up and kill me in a split second.

 

Very few enemy groups do that at "+3"/x8, let alone "+1"/x8. Awakened, PPD...

It is quite a treat to play that old "Close the dimensional ruptures" mission from Unai Kemen on +4/x8. New Banished Pantheon mobs, no level shifts save for alpha. An excellent stress test most of my characters do NOT pass without severe inspiration usage.

I'm not saying it's a cakewalk. Even standard Carnies can fark me up at +3 (+4 with 1 lvl shift.) And yea, when you get a bad combo of Incarnate BP bosses they can put a world of hurt on ya.

 

Because they SHOULD be able to. They're incarnate level nasties. And if I decide to face them at +4, they should BE +4.

[ivanhedgehog]

3 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Wish I didn't find it to be true but I do. Removing level shifts completely from the game should be the first step toward an overhaul toward balance. Yes, that includes all the enemies that get lvl shifts while you fight them like Praetor Sinclair in Belladonna's arc.

 

Edit: And, yes, I did solo him at +4 (+7 by the end of it) on a freaking sentinel that was +3ed.

make a toggle to turn it off if thats what you want? That way you arent kneecapping other players?

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, ivanhedgehog said:

make a toggle to turn it off if thats what you want? That way you arent kneecapping other players?

No. I want nothing short (and apologies to my SG for this who have stated plainly that they disagree) of the complete removal of all level shifts for players and enemies from the game.

 

+4 should be +4, full stop.

[ivanhedgehog]

4 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

No. I want nothing short (and apologies to my SG for this who have stated plainly that they disagree) of the complete removal of all level shifts for players and enemies from the game.

 

+4 should be +4, full stop.

So you arent interested in modifying your own difficulty, you want to run other peoples gaming experiences...

[oedipus_tex]

Rather than totally remove Level Shifts I think they should apply only to iTrials. The iTrials feature enemies who have their own level shifts, so they are balanced for it.

 

The tech already exists to flag a level shift as conditional based on the zone, it is currently used by Lore and Destiny. I think that needs to be applied to Alpha level shift and Dark Astoria de-tagged as an "incarnate zone." That would fix a lot. The DA content is actually pretty good, but fighting +1 enemies and getting +4 rewards from it shouldn't be a thing.

 

 

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Why *almost* no one? Why hedge your statement? Either we can or we can't.

 

If we can, why can we is the question.

If we can't, why can't we is the question.

 

If we shouldn't ... I don't care about that word. Lots of things in the universe *should* be one way or the other and aren't.

 

The only way to get to what you have stated here is a complete and global nerf.

Almost no one can Solo the ITF 54x8 with enemies buffed, player nerfed right now.  But some crazy build/combo can maybe do it.  The same way you and some others have been able to solo the enemies buffed version.

 

So I include Almost.  

 

You wouldn't have to nerf anyone necessarily, you could buff the bad guys.  

 

Ideally though you'd rework some of the mechanics since we've entered into the realm of very poor granularity in today's game. 

 

Should is actually a very important word from a game design standpoint.  Without any balance goals you are more likely to get out of control power level inflation.

 

Yes I realize none of that will happen.  I've conceded that repitively.   But when people wonder why COH feels console cheats easy we shouldn't pretend like its some mystery.