Focused Feedback: Titan Weapons Revamp

[Seed22]

21 hours ago, Cheli said:

This isn't even close to true. StJ, staff, kin melee, and beam rifle are mediocre at best, and some of the best sets in the game (claws, fire manip) are "base" sets that have been in the game forever. 

What you said isnt even close to true. Except Staff being mediocre. Claws is NOT the best set. AT ALL. Not even in close. Servicable? Sure. But beam being bad? Thats like saying archery is good outside the T9 🙃

[laudwic]

Dumb question but why is this power different for Tankers?

 

 Whirling Smash

• Radius lowered from 15ft to 10ft (however, it remains at 15ft for Tankers)
• No longer inflicts additional damage over time

I don't see a reason why it would be better for Tanker than, for example, Brutes.  Frankly, I could make some arguments that the more offensive ATs should have the longer range than the more defensive/control the aggro Ats.  

[ABlueThingy]

1 minute ago, laudwic said:

Dumb question but why is this power different for Tankers?

 

 Whirling Smash

• Radius lowered from 15ft to 10ft (however, it remains at 15ft for Tankers)
• No longer inflicts additional damage over time

I don't see a reason why it would be better for Tanker than, for example, Brutes.  Frankly, I could make some arguments that the more offensive ATs should have the longer range than the more defensive/control the aggro Ats.  

Almost all Tanker AoE/Cone powers are larger then the corresponding power on a scrap/stalk/brute.

 

You can kind of consider Brutes the ST tank and Tankers the AoE tank.

[Captain Powerhouse]

53 minutes ago, laudwic said:

Dumb question but why is this power different for Tankers?

 

 Whirling Smash

• Radius lowered from 15ft to 10ft (however, it remains at 15ft for Tankers)
• No longer inflicts additional damage over time

I don't see a reason why it would be better for Tanker than, for example, Brutes.  Frankly, I could make some arguments that the more offensive ATs should have the longer range than the more defensive/control the aggro Ats.  

 

The power for tankers will still say 10ft, but tankers get an inherent radius boost that will result in the power still having 15ft (without that extra radius being used for PPM calculations.)

[laudwic]

23 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

The power for tankers will still say 10ft, but tankers get an inherent radius boost that will result in the power still having 15ft (without that extra radius being used for PPM calculations.)

I certainly believe you guys, just curious as to the decision making to increase melee range on this AT on shared power sets and that this is not listed as a Tanker inherent from what I've been able to look up in the old Paragon Wiki or the unofficial Homecoming Wiki.  

 

So, Whirling Smash was lowered from 15 to 10 for all ATs, but, as the Tanker AT has an unlisted inherent radius bonus, the effective range Whirling Smash is being reduced from 20 ft to 15 ft for Tankers.

 

 

[Lines]

20 minutes ago, laudwic said:

I certainly believe you guys, just curious as to the decision making to increase melee range on this AT on shared power sets and that this is not listed as a Tanker inherent from what I've been able to look up in the old Paragon Wiki or the unofficial Homecoming Wiki.  

 

So, Whirling Smash was lowered from 15 to 10 for all ATs, but, as the Tanker AT has an unlisted inherent radius bonus, the effective range Whirling Smash is being reduced from 20 ft to 15 ft for Tankers.

 

 

I think the Homecoming wiki needs updating if it isn't there. Gauntlet itself does show the range buff:

 

Spoiler

 

The changes are there to help Tankers retain their aggro more than anything, but also to give them a role as trash mob clearers.

[laudwic]

53 minutes ago, Lines said:

I think the Homecoming wiki needs updating if it isn't there. Gauntlet itself does show the range buff:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

The changes are there to help Tankers retain their aggro more than anything, but also to give them a role as trash mob clearers.

 

Thanks, I have a Brute not a Tanker.  Both Wiki's have problems.  For example, a good number of blaster secondaries are missing from both.

 

The Paragon Wiki version of Guantlet:

 

Although many try, few can withstand the irresistible force of the Tanker. Each time a Tanker attacks, he enrages the target, and those around him, enticing them to attack the Tanker. Each punch continues to provoke your enemies and allows the Tanker to do what he does best.

Gauntlet -- also referred to as "PunchVoke" -- causes the Tanker's AoE attacks and auras to taunt every PvE enemy they affect. Their single-target attacks taunt the enemy hit and up to four more around it. Gauntlet has reduced chances of affecting exceptionally high-rank foes like Giant Monsters, and even worse chances of affecting other players in PvP.

Brutes possess a smaller version of this power, occasionally labeled as "PokeVoke" by the community, as it does not possess an official name. The Brute's version of Gauntlet does not apply in PvP, and their single-target attacks only taunt the one target hit.

 

From the unofficial homecoming WIKI

 Gauntlet
Although many try, few can withstand the irresistible force of the Tanker. Each time a Tanker attacks, he enrages the target, and those around him, enticing them to attack the Tanker. Each punch continues to provoke your enemies and allows the Tanker to do what he does best.

Gauntlet -- also referred to as "PunchVoke" -- causes the Tanker's AoE attacks and auras to taunt every PvE enemy they affect. Their single-target attacks taunt the enemy hit and up to four more around it. Gauntlet has reduced chances of affecting exceptionally high-rank foes like Giant Monsters, and even worse chances of affecting other players in PvP.

Brutes possess a smaller version of this power, occasionally labeled as "PokeVoke" by the community, as it does not possess an official name. The Brute's version of Gauntlet does not apply in PvP, and their single-target attacks only taunt the one target hit.

 

Neither is the same as the screen shot you were kind enough to post.

 

Was this how it was in live or is it a Homecoming thing?

 

I solo my Brute, clearing trash mobs is important for all other ATs too.   Still don't see why the the AoE would be increased except, maybe, to try to balance Brutes Fury and Scrappers critical hit. 

 

[Lines]

10 minutes ago, laudwic said:

Was this how it was in live or is it a Homecoming thing?

 

 

 

It was a page 4 change, from January this year:

Page 4 Patch Notes

 

The homecoming wiki was copied from Paragon Wiki some time after that. A lot of it has been updated to reflect homecoming, but there are bound to be gaps that have been missed. Thanks for pointing one out! 🙂

[laudwic]

4 minutes ago, Lines said:

It was a page 4 change, from January this year:

Page 4 Patch Notes

 

The homecoming wiki was copied from Paragon Wiki some time after that. A lot of it has been updated to reflect homecoming, but there are bound to be gaps that have been missed. Thanks for pointing one out! 🙂

Thanks for posting this.  Yeah, before my time back to CoH.  Looks like they were trying to buff Tanks to make them more attractive vs. Brutes.  The higher base damage percent + a 20% unstackable resistance debuff + improved AoE on powers + better inherit Aggro vs. Brute's Fury ability and PokeVoke.

[siolfir]

22 hours ago, laudwic said:

Thanks for posting this.  Yeah, before my time back to CoH.  Looks like they were trying to buff Tanks to make them more attractive vs. Brutes.  The higher base damage percent + a 20% unstackable resistance debuff + improved AoE on powers + better inherit Aggro vs. Brute's Fury ability and PokeVoke.

Just to keep you fully up-to-date on this, Tankers don't get the 20% unstackable resistance debuff (Bruising) as it was removed in the same patch. That removal was the cause of a lot of discussion in the feedback threads while it was in beta.

[laudwic]

22 minutes ago, siolfir said:

Just to keep you fully up-to-date on this, Tankers don't get the 20% unstackable resistance debuff (Bruising) as it was removed in the same patch. That removal was the cause of a lot of discussion in the feedback threads while it was in beta.

Mental note, the Wikis are not nearly as good as I thought and I really really will need to look at patch notes from before I knew the game was back. . . . 

[zeeviant]

Overall, this change is a total bummer.

 

 

Questions I have:

 

1. Was TW really over represented in terms of population?
2. Was it not fair to compensate TW for it's awkwardness, end issues, and higher skill requirements with damage? Especially since thematically it makes sense that getting hit by a telephone pole would hurt more than a bat?
3. If the point of "Balance" is simply to make everything a cookie cutter of everything else, normalized to be near identical in damage output, where is the player agency? I know this balance philosophy was embraced by original design team, but the game by no means was better for it, with many powersets basically just being copy-paste effects with a palette/particle/model swap.

 

If TW had too many things inherent in it, then that should have been directly addressed. Remove the defense buff. Weaken the AoE. If it did too much dps, than increasing the delay between swings or something.

 

Of course this change neuters AoE and damage output and then retains/focuses on the absolutely most boring and bland part of TW in terms of easing end usage, def bonus and attack chain fluidity. Yes we know it's perfectly serviceable in the form it's change too, but it's bland and flavorless as well.

 

I for one, don't think I'll be playing my TW after this change. I really do not care that it's still possible to play the game perfectly fine after the change. I chose TW to have big, flashly damage with big numbers, I didn't care how good the set was nor how much dps it did I wanted to see those big single hits and have fun with that aspect of it. Now that is aspect is gone the set has really nothing to offer me.

Edited October 31, 2020 by zeeviant

[Maxzero]

1 hour ago, zeeviant said:

Overall, this change is a total bummer.

 

 

Questions I have:

 

1. Was TW really over represented in terms of population?
2. Was it not fair to compensate TW for it's awkwardness, end issues, and higher skill requirements with damage? Especially since thematically it makes sense that getting hit by a telephone pole would hurt more than a bat?
3. If the point of "Balance" is simply to make everything a cookie cutter of everything else, normalized to be near identical in damage output, where is the player agency? I know this balance philosophy was embraced by original design team, but the game by no means was better for it, with many powersets basically just being copy-paste effects with a palette/particle/model swap.

 

If TW had too many things inherent in it, then that should have been directly addressed. Remove the defense buff. Weaken the AoE. If it did too much dps, than increasing the delay between swings or something.

 

Of course this change neuters AoE and damage output and then retains/focuses on the absolutely most boring and bland part of TW in terms of easing end usage, def bonus and attack chain fluidity. Yes we know it's perfectly serviceable in the form it's change too, but it's bland and flavorless as well.

 

I for one, don't think I'll be playing my TW after this change. I really do not care that it's still possible to play the game perfectly fine after the change. I chose TW to have big, flashly damage with big numbers, I didn't care how good the set was nor how much dps it did I wanted to see those big single hits and have fun with that aspect of it. Now that is aspect is gone the set has really nothing to offer me.

 

I would argue that the end issues are being dealt with in this same patch. With misses now still generating Momentum much of the awkwardness is gone. So what does it need compensation for?

 

TW never was the 'big flashy number' set. If you want big numbers SS or Dark are much better at that. TW was all about managing Momentum and moving from slow to fast attacks and vice versa. That still has not changed.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Maxzero

[Haijinx]

On 10/24/2020 at 1:42 PM, Tsuko said:

Pylon runs with my favorite Page 5 build in beta server / patch 1 : Pylons kill from 1m08 to 1m20

 

TW / bio scrapper / T4 assaut (not click) / T4 muscu, ageless, degen.

 

1) 1m25 : feeling is diferent

2) 1m19 : i notice some real long momentum 

3) 1m12 : i still dont know what is diferent but the rotation feels much more fluid but damage seems less powerfull than before.

 

Conclusion : why should i bother with TW now when WM is much more easier to build / play and Rad provide top debuff AND a heal with same damage.

 

Note 1 : it s a page 5 build so maybe with a new build...

Note 2 : endurance consum is very nice : on live my build can detoggle with sprint and superspeed for long fights (more than 1m30), on beta, i can keep both and ageless is enough to keep stam at 100%

I'm pretty sure making TW seem like it actually has competition from other sets is the point.  

==========

 

The recharge reduction during momentum is clever. It addresses the clunky feel on SOs somewhat, but it hurts the high priced io builds ...

[zeeviant]

21 hours ago, Maxzero said:

 

I would argue that the end issues are being dealt with in this same patch. With misses now still generating Momentum much of the awkwardness is gone. So what does it need compensation for?

 

 

 

 

That was literally my point. The set was *better* when it was temperamental with a higher skill cap and heavy end issues, but then was compensated for this. Removing any skill required to use the set and the end issues is absolutely a justification to nerfing the set, but that is not actually forward progress. It's just destroying diversity and player agency on some sort of quest to make every set a copy/paste of every other.

 

> TW never was the 'big flashy number' set. If you want big numbers SS or Dark are much better at that. TW was all about managing Momentum and moving from slow to fast attacks and vice versa. That still has not changed.

 

SS, is a "Big numbers set?"  The only heavy hitter on SS is KB, which does less damage than arc of destruction and rend armor. If you are trying to reference rage or other damage buffs that is a total whiff, I want to see the highest damage numbers and feel like I'm hitting stuff hard, I buy reds and play with others that often have me at damage cap, all benefits of rage would be moot and the base damage of the attacks is what is relevant.

 

I have two maxed out TW characters (scrapper and tank) I also have a maxed SS brute. I know how titan weapons feels and it feels big and meaty. It also feels like a tough climb from 1-50 and the pay off is great. I really don't care if it's too strong and needs individual aspects of it nerfed but this completely re-imageing of the set, in my opinion, misses the mark. After the patch my TW chars will be deleted.

Edited November 1, 2020 by zeeviant

[Galaxy Brain]

@zeeviant,

 

TW was overperforming compared to every other set in basically any way you could slice it.

 

ST DPS? TW was the best by a margin
AoE Damage? TW was easily up there for the top spot, though sets like Rad and Spines are "easier" to manage than TW for max performance

Added safety? TW is definitely up there with tons of (AoE) knockdowns, an AoE parry, and generally just wiping up mobs faster than they can harm you on top of that.

 

Outside of the end cost and small learning curve (both easily fixed), and I guess not being able to use it with Shield, there was no real reason to NOT use TW compared to nearly any other melee set for raw output unless you just did not like how it played or did not want to manage endurance. The downsides were heavily, heavily outweighed by the upsides for the set when you matched it up to its peers outside of essentially AFK farming or low level content. 

 

Alongside the set actually breaking some of the "rules" of how powers work by doing more damage than it should, this is what warranted the set being dialed back. What everyone has been showing since is that TW is still in a great spot and is still swinging in the top end of melee power. Do I think maybe it could use a little something? Sure, though I haven't been able to put my finger on quite what yet...

[Maxzero]

2 hours ago, zeeviant said:

 

 

That was literally my point. The set was *better* when it was temperamental with a higher skill cap and heavy end issues, but then was compensated for this. Removing any skill required to use the set and the end issues is absolutely a justification to nerfing the set, but that is not actually forward progress. It's just destroying diversity and player agency on some sort of quest to make every set a copy/paste of every other.

 

> TW never was the 'big flashy number' set. If you want big numbers SS or Dark are much better at that. TW was all about managing Momentum and moving from slow to fast attacks and vice versa. That still has not changed.

 

SS, is a "Big numbers set?"  The only heavy hitter on SS is KB, which does less damage than arc of destruction and rend armor. If you are trying to reference rage or other damage buffs that is a total whiff, I want to see the highest damage numbers and feel like I'm hitting stuff hard, I buy reds and play with others that often have me at damage cap, all benefits of rage would be moot and the base damage of the attacks is what is relevant.

 

I have two maxed out TW characters (scrapper and tank) I also have a maxed SS brute. I know how titan weapons feels and it feels big and meaty. It also feels like a tough climb from 1-50 and the pay off is great. I really don't care if it's too strong and needs individual aspects of it nerfed but this completely re-imageing of the set, in my opinion, misses the mark. After the patch my TW chars will be deleted.

 

TW was never hard to play. Just tedious.

 

If you buying Reds is enough to disregard Rage/Soul Drain then me buying Blues is enough to take away any 'challenge' old TW had (which only existed pre 50 anyway). Again no compensation required.

 

 

Edited November 1, 2020 by Maxzero

[Kanil]

56 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

@zeeviant,

 

TW was overperforming compared to every other set in basically any way you could slice it.

 

ST DPS? TW was the best by a margin
AoE Damage? TW was easily up there for the top spot, though sets like Rad and Spines are "easier" to manage than TW for max performance

Added safety? TW is definitely up there with tons of (AoE) knockdowns, an AoE parry, and generally just wiping up mobs faster than they can harm you on top of that.

 

Outside of the end cost and small learning curve (both easily fixed), and I guess not being able to use it with Shield, there was no real reason to NOT use TW compared to nearly any other melee set for raw output unless you just did not like how it played or did not want to manage endurance. The downsides were heavily, heavily outweighed by the upsides for the set when you matched it up to its peers outside of essentially AFK farming or low level content. 

 

Alongside the set actually breaking some of the "rules" of how powers work by doing more damage than it should, this is what warranted the set being dialed back. What everyone has been showing since is that TW is still in a great spot and is still swinging in the top end of melee power. Do I think maybe it could use a little something? Sure, though I haven't been able to put my finger on quite what yet...

the nature of "doesn't like how it plays" is super real though because the caveat of TW was more in that than anything that you could numerically track, haha.

folks who play TW can confirm that as the strength of the team goes up, TW's value goes down by a lot due to the jankiness of the set. it's probably where a lot of the discrepancy in impressions lies, since if it gets any time to breathe or is on regular content, it's waaaaaaaay above the board.

 

the main thing that addresses that aspect is the momentum whiff change + the change to crushing blow, honestly - those two things help smooth out the on/off flow of TW in exchange for a lot of it's power.

 

however, it kinda ties in to that aspect of feeling like something is a bit 'off' -  the thing that's missing now is the explosive "wow" factor of TW just blending a target. the nerfs to the AOE damage/radius alongside the changes to momentum up damage make it so momentum doesn't feel like a gratifying release after build up/a momentum starter attack. the rollar coaster is shortened, so the climb to the top is faster but the drop is much less exciting, if ya dig?

 

honestly, i'm kinda bothered that scrapper TW still has a top tier ST damage string by nature of how the 'standard' build and string are laid out when i was getting equal or better times with my own string/build and that string is total garbage now. i liked that there was room for creativity/open interpretation to achieve optimal performance still, especially since i think my personal string is way better than the standard string for live play/performance due to the nature of how crit strikes is placed. it basically went from 'hey optimizing this can happen a few diff ways' vs "just make sure crit strikes is in follow through and that you do non-momentum rend armor as your non-momentunm starter"

 

...but that's nitpicking that i'm sure nobody gives a shit about, haha

[Maxzero]

46 minutes ago, Kanil said:

the nature of "doesn't like how it plays" is super real though because the caveat of TW was more in that than anything that you could numerically track, haha.

folks who play TW can confirm that as the strength of the team goes up, TW's value goes down by a lot due to the jankiness of the set. it's probably where a lot of the discrepancy in impressions lies, since if it gets any time to breathe or is on regular content, it's waaaaaaaay above the board.

 

the main thing that addresses that aspect is the momentum whiff change + the change to crushing blow, honestly - those two things help smooth out the on/off flow of TW in exchange for a lot of it's power.

 

however, it kinda ties in to that aspect of feeling like something is a bit 'off' -  the thing that's missing now is the explosive "wow" factor of TW just blending a target. the nerfs to the AOE damage/radius alongside the changes to momentum up damage make it so momentum doesn't feel like a gratifying release after build up/a momentum starter attack. the rollar coaster is shortened, so the climb to the top is faster but the drop is much less exciting, if ya dig?

 

honestly, i'm kinda bothered that scrapper TW still has a top tier ST damage string by nature of how the 'standard' build and string are laid out when i was getting equal or better times with my own string/build and that string is total garbage now. i liked that there was room for creativity/open interpretation to achieve optimal performance still, especially since i think my personal string is way better than the standard string for live play/performance due to the nature of how crit strikes is placed. it basically went from 'hey optimizing this can happen a few diff ways' vs "just make sure crit strikes is in follow through and that you do non-momentum rend armor as your non-momentunm starter"

 

...but that's nitpicking that i'm sure nobody gives a shit about, haha

 

It only lost 8-10%. Not a massive reduction.

 

The priorities has not changed all that much.You still want enough recharge to Follow Through twice per Momentum. You still want Rend and Arc for debuffs/-res procs.

[Kanil]

7 minutes ago, Maxzero said:

 

It only lost 8-10%. Not a massive reduction.

 

The priorities has not changed all that much.You still want enough recharge to Follow Through twice per Momentum. You still want Rend and Arc for debuffs/-res procs.

it's not 8-10% only, please re-read the patch notes carefully and test stuff before you correct me. it's kind of tucked away in the patchnotes, but it's there and very very obvious in testing when you're quantitatively keeping track of results instead of "feel". why do you think i keep mentioning non-momentum damage?

 

the overall goal of FT x2 during momentum uptime hasn't changed, but all the shuffling around it has lost value, which is what i'm talking about - instead of shufflin' around and being able to produce equally good or better results you just do The One String because it's now the best when that tiny bit of flexibility really set TW apart before (at a personal level)

Edited November 1, 2020 by Kanil

[Maxzero]

3 hours ago, Kanil said:

it's not 8-10% only, please re-read the patch notes carefully and test stuff before you correct me. it's kind of tucked away in the patchnotes, but it's there and very very obvious in testing when you're quantitatively keeping track of results instead of "feel". why do you think i keep mentioning non-momentum damage?

 

the overall goal of FT x2 during momentum uptime hasn't changed, but all the shuffling around it has lost value, which is what i'm talking about - instead of shufflin' around and being able to produce equally good or better results you just do The One String because it's now the best when that tiny bit of flexibility really set TW apart before (at a personal level)

 

I was referring primarily to the big hits. The DoT removal does not affect big hits but its true the Momentum recharge does.

 

You keep talking about quantitive analysis yet I have yet anything except a few pylon tests from you. The game isn't balanced around pylons. In fact the only player who has 'run the numbers' in any types of varied measured setting is Galaxy Brain. 

 

Your primary complaint seems to be how you can't find your own personal rotation that is better then a public one. The very definition of subjective.

Edited November 1, 2020 by Maxzero

[Kanil]

26 minutes ago, Maxzero said:

 

I was referring primarily to the big hits. The DoT removal does not affect big hits and the Momentum giving recharge reduces proc rate and not the big hits.

 

You keep talking about quantitive analysis yet I have yet anything except a few pylon tests from you. The game isn't balanced around pylons. In fact the only player who has 'run the numbers' in any types of varied measured setting is Galaxy Brain. 

 

Your primary complaint seems to be how you can't find your own personal rotation that is better then a public one. The very definition of subjective.

no, dude, you're still not reading the patch notes enough. here, let me highlight it for you, because like i said, it's not obvious in patchnotes but insanely obvious in consistent testing

 

• Whilst Momentum is active, all Titan Weapons attacks will:
  • Recharge 25% faster, with proportional damage and endurance cost reduction per the standard damage formulas
  • Have an additional 25% endurance cost reduction

 

as in, momentum-up attacks do roughly 30-40 points less base damage than their momentum up versions (this is after the overall 8 to 10pct adjustment on dmg for moves)  as to scale the momentum up attacks to their better rech time as to fit the formula.

 

also, my live mission testing results are at the bottom of the first page? and on the last page? you seem to have stopped upon seeing my first post with pylon times because it's like, a few posts down from that? or you just saw numbers and assumed they were pylon times? i dunno what to tell you, man. they've been there.

 

you're spot on for the complaint though, especially since that's what i said from the getgo? it bothers me that the flexibility for live play and slotting was lost for The One True String And Slotting due to a weird incongruity re:that specific thing w/momentum up attacks doing less damage causing the One True String And Slotting to remain strong while every other string/slotting suffers because it takes advantage of following FT with non-momentum up RA

Edited November 2, 2020 by Kanil

[Maxzero]

8 minutes ago, Kanil said:

no, dude, you're still not reading the patch notes enough. here, let me highlight it for you, because like i said, it's not obvious in patchnotes but insanely obvious in consistent testing

 

• Whilst Momentum is active, all Titan Weapons attacks will:
  • Recharge 25% faster, with proportional damage and endurance cost reduction per the standard damage formulas
  • Have an additional 25% endurance cost reduction

 

as in, momentum-up attacks do roughly 30-40 points less base damage than their momentum up versions as to scale the momentum up attacks to their better rech time as to fit the formula.

 

also, my live mission testing results are at the bottom of the first page? and on the last page? you seem to have stopped upon seeing my first post with pylon times because it's like, a few posts down from that? or you just saw numbers and assumed they were pylon times? i dunno what to tell you, man. they've been there.

 

you're spot on for the complaint though, especially since that's what i said from the getgo? it bothers me that the flexibility for live play and slotting was lost for The One True String And Slotting due to a weird incongruity causing the One True String And Slotting to remain strong while every other string/slotting suffers

Actually I updated my post about them. You must of missed the edit.

 

The fact is TW as per Galaxy Brain's tests is perfectly fine. Still one of the best sets just not the perfect one.

 

So the only complaints left are subjective ones and honestly everyone has opinions.

Edited November 2, 2020 by Maxzero

[Kanil]

22 minutes ago, Maxzero said:

Actually I updated my post about them. You must of missed the edit.

 

The fact is TW as per Galaxy Brain's tests is perfectly fine. Still one of the best sets just not the perfect one.

 

So the only complaints left are subjective ones and honestly everyone has opinions.

ah yeah my b, i totally did while writing the post, haha

 

i don't like the use of galaxy brain's tests as the end-all be-all of determining set strength because of the caveats they have which is why i've always run my own stuff to just check the relative power levels of my characters to each other. there's lots of small things to check in terms of nuance that can affect "real" strength in terms of clearspeed/safety for high end builds that can really flip traditional 'tier' logic on it's head. it's not that they're bad or anything, but you gotta consider what strengths are being measured when you're lookin' at them instead of just accepting it as The One Truth.

 

the beta set in terms of performance is fine as is, it's still got relatively top tier ST and top tier safety in AOEs, but in terms of AOE clear times (which in high-end stuff matters significantly more than safety due to the nature of how builds trend and how much easier it is to account for defense) folks calling it top tier is just one of those interestin' observations to me since it doesn't gel with my own testing.

it feels like an extension of folks acknowledging the times on tsuko's posts to say "oh, see, TW is still top tier!" but not acknowledging that those results are immediately followed by 'em saying "there's not really like, a real to deal with titan weapons jank anymore when smoother sets get the same results and can be better overall"

 

i'd just prefer if people bothered to just test that stuff presented to 'em instead of seeing a chart and going "yeah sure looks good", y'know? i want to see contributions to that to get a better scope of where it sits instead of just what i've recorded and what galaxy brain's recorded!

 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2020 by Kanil

[Maxzero]

12 minutes ago, Kanil said:

ah yeah my b, i totally did while writing the post, haha

 

i don't like the use of galaxy brain's tests as the end-all be-all of determining set strength because of the caveats they have which is why i've always run my own stuff to just check the relative power levels of my characters to each other. there's lots of small things to check in terms of nuance that can affect "real" strength in terms of clearspeed/safety for high end builds that can really flip traditional 'tier' logic on it's head. it's not that they're bad or anything, but you gotta consider what strengths are being measured when you're lookin' at them instead of just accepting it as The One Truth.

 

the beta set in terms of performance is fine as is, it's still got relatively top tier ST and top tier safety in AOEs, but in terms of AOE clear times (which in high-end stuff matters significantly more than safety due to the nature of how builds trend and how much easier it is to account for defense) folks calling it top tier is just one of those interestin' observations to me since it doesn't gel with my own testing.

it feels like an extension of folks acknowledging the times on tsuko's posts but not acknowledging that they say "there's not really like, a real to deal with titan weapons jank anymore when smoother sets get the same results and can be better overall"

 

i'd just prefer if people bothered to just test that stuff presented to 'em instead of seeing a chart and going "yeah sure looks good", y'know? i want to see contributions to that to get a better scope of where it sits instead of just what i've recorded and what galaxy brain's recorded!

 

 

 

I like Galaxy Brains test because they are not personalised.

 

We all have our quirks and preferences when building but we have to realise the vast majority of players are not spending hours pouring over Mids tweaking a build then spending even more hours testing and evaluating them through spreadsheets.

 

I am currently building a SR/Claws Tanker who's performance looks totally awesome with a unique rotation that I have not seen anyone else use.

 

But I would hardly expect the Devs to balance Claws around my build.

Edited November 2, 2020 by Maxzero