Focused Feedback: Blaster Secondary Revamp

[Vanden]

18 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

50' is the default perception range for even level mobs... so you have to move to at least the perception range of the closest mob in a spawn before starting to employ ENA (and even then just on the closest)

You don't have to move into perception range to use ENA, you have Flash Arrow in TA with a full 80' range to reduce enemy perception, an option that most Blaster secondaries don't have.

 

18 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Tac Arrow has a specific play style that is different from the other Blaster secondaries and the reason people like it is BECAUSE it is different from all the other Blaster secondaries. Other set groups are allowed to have outliers... ex. Storm Summoning under the Support sets plays very different from Empathy or Rad or Dark or Thermal or Time.

Tactical Arrow is different largely because Captain Powerhouse was working with much more limited tools at his disposal and less experience with the game when he made it. With a better perspective on overall balance he's taking the opportunity to course-correct.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Vanden

[Blackbird71]

9 minutes ago, Vanden said:

You don't have to move into perception range to use ENA, you have Flash Arrow in TA with a full 80' range to reduce enemy perception, an option that most Blaster secondaries don't have.

Except that Flash Arrow is also being made resistible, which means that some enemies in a group will retain their full perception, and you will still need to move into perception range to engage ENW.

You can't look at these changes in isolation; you have to consider how they affect each other in aggregate.

9 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Tactical Arrow is different largely because Captain Powerhouse was working with much more limited tools at his disposal and less experience with the game when he made it. With a better perspective on overall balance he's taking the opportunity to course-correct.

What you call a course correction, I call a derailment.  Maybe Captain Powerhouse was working with limited tools, but he managed to use those tools to make something unique and fun.  Why should that be made more like everything else?  

Edited October 26, 2020 by Blackbird71

[Vanden]

1 minute ago, Blackbird71 said:

Except that Flash Arrow is also being made resistible, which means that some enemies in a group will retain their full perception, and you will still need to move into perception range to engage ENW.

Find one enemy mob in the game you can use Flash Arrow on without aggroing it that still aggroes at 50 feet after being debuffed and I'll concede the point.

[Blackbird71]

4 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Find one enemy mob in the game you can use Flash Arrow on without aggroing it that still aggroes at 50 feet after being debuffed and I'll concede the point.

🤦‍♂️

Flash Arrow will no longer be irresistible!  That means that you can use FA at range without aggroing, but not every enemy WILL be debuffed!  So in approaching a group, even after using FA, you have to close to perception range of the ones who aren't debuffed to then use the nerfed ENW!

Edited October 26, 2020 by Blackbird71

[Nemu]

1 minute ago, Blackbird71 said:

🤦‍♂️

Flash Arrow will no longer be irresitible!  That means that you can use FA at range without aggroing, but not every enemy WILL be debuffed!  So in approaching a group, even after using FA, you have to close to perception range of the ones who aren't debuffed to then use the nerfed ENW!

No longer Irresistible isn't the same as missing. It just means mobs will resist the effect to a certain degree, so that the perception debuff is only 50% as effective, for example. I don't play /TA but isn't flash arrow autohit?

 

And also why would you open up a fight with entangling arrow when you have more damaging and longer range options available?

[Troo]

On 10/24/2020 at 5:41 AM, Jimmy said:

ESD Arrow

• Hold now only applies to robots.
• Hold changed from Mag 3, Scale 8 to:
  • Mag 2, Scale 8 (non stacking)
  • Mag 1, Scale 5 (stacking)
• Added Stun against non robots:
  • Mag 2, Scale 8 (non stacking)
  • Mag 1, Scale 5 (stacking)
• Now accepts Stun enhancements and sets

Quick question, are Freakshow considered robots or non-robots?

[Blackbird71]

9 minutes ago, Nemu said:

And also why would you open up a fight with entangling arrow when you have more damaging and longer range options available?

Because TA survival often depends on maintaining range.  You set up the fight by doing what you can to keep enemies at range as long as possible, then open up with damaging attacks.  That means starting with control measures (Flash Arrow, ESD Arrow, ENW, and/or Ice Arrow), then unleashing your primary powerset attacks.  Doing it the other way around often means you get swarmed with mobs who close to melee before you can really lock things down, and often spells death.

This largely applies to solo play, but TA is a set that imho shines (in terms of fun and tactical use, not necessarily power level) in solo play.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Blackbird71

[Nemu]

7 minutes ago, Troo said:

Quick question, are Freakshow considered robots or non-robots?

I think they are just weak to energy damage if that's what you are hinting at.

[Vanden]

@Blackbird71@Chris24601 From your Confused reactions it seems like you guys are under the impression that Flash Arrow not being resistable any more means it can miss; this isn't the case, it is still autohit and will automatically debuff any target in range. Losing the unresistable tag means that any enemy with resistance to perception debuffs will suffer less loss to their perception, but if there's an enemy mob with enough resistance to -Perception to still aggro at 50 feet after taking a -90% debuff to perception I've never heard of it.

[Troo]

7 minutes ago, Nemu said:

I think they are just weak to energy damage if that's what you are hinting at.

They have cybernetic enhancements.. I'm was just wondering if the game treated them as a non-robot. An E.M.P. or similar could have an effect on a cyborg.

[Nemu]

Only one way to find out, give them a captcha test and have them point out all the traffic lights.

 

If they fail - ROBOTS

[Troo]

On 10/24/2020 at 5:41 AM, Jimmy said:

Energy Manipulation

•  Energize
  • Now provides a small amount of Stun protection (PvE only)
•  Stun
  • Recharge reduced from 20s to 14s
  • This power now has synergy with Power Boost and Boost Range
    •  With Boost Range active, this power becomes a ranged Stun
    •  With Power Boost active, this power becomes an AoE (instead of boosting its duration)
  • Stun will have an orange ring whenever either of these buffs are active
    • As highlight rings can only be one color, Power Boost and Boost Range are also getting a pale white ring to make it easier to know if their buffs are still active, without having to look at the buff bar
  • Full combo details:
    • Stun = 14s recharge, 7ft range, Mag 3 scale 10 stun, single target
    • Stun + Boost Range = 14s recharge, 60ft range, Mag 2 scale 10 stun + Mag 1 scale 6 stun, single targets
    • Stun + Power Boost = 90s recharge, 7ft range, Mag 2 scale 5 stun + Mag 1 Scale 2.5 stun, AoE (10 targets)
    • Stun + Power Boost + Boost Range = 90s recharge, 60ft range, Mag 2 scale 5 stun + Mag 1 Scale 2.5 stun, AoE (10 targets)

•  Total Focus
  • Cast time reduced from 3.3 seconds to 2.53 seconds

Who has the combo crack control? Please someone take the crack pipe from that person!! (semi-joking, this isn't so bad)

 

On 10/24/2020 at 5:41 AM, Jimmy said:

 Throw Sand

• Stun changed from Mag 3, Scale 12 to:

  • Mag 2, Scale 8 (non stacking)
  • Mag 1, Scale 5 (stacking)

Is there someone that can explain a bit the Stun and Hold changes from Mag 3, scale 12 to Mag 2, Scale 8 non stacking?

Actual impact?

Why?

What good is a Mag 1?

[Chris24601]

40 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Tactical Arrow is different largely because Captain Powerhouse was working with much more limited tools at his disposal and less experience with the game when he made it. With a better perspective on overall balance he's taking the opportunity to course-correct.

I note you still haven't answered my question; do you have any experience with the TA set in play and how it plays differently now or are you just arguing from design theory? My hunch from your avoidance is that you're pure theory-crafting (and if you're not, you're certainly coming off that way) and have no real skin in the game of how this change affects the people who actually PLAY the set.

 

You've asked others to do the work of proving you wrong, but the people saying its a problem posted first, that means it's your job to prove that our actual play experiences are wrong, not demanding we prove your 0 play/100% theory-crafting is incorrect. If you haven't already... roll up an Archery/TA Blaster on live, level them to 50, then take them to test and see how it FEELS; how disruptive this change actually is to the playstyle you will adopt as you use it and which those who actually are using it now don't want to lose.

 

Other players who, AGAIN, feel the range is an important enough factor to their play experience that they are willing to accept further nerfs in other areas of the power (ex. cut mez duration nearly in half, reduce the mag of ENA by a third or stackability by two-thirds, etc.) in order to keep the range component. This is NOT some group of players saying "we refuse to see the need for change"... these are people saying "you're changing the powers in a way that destroys our play experience and would really rather have you nerf other parts of the power to compensate instead."

 

Also, you keep saying the designer had limited tools, but things like range and mag and duration are spreadsheet data and Captain Powerhouse had to be aware of the ranges of the other Blaster secondary holds and immobilizes back when he was plugging them in and yet still chose to make them 80' to match the normal ranges of Blaster Primaries.

[Vanden]

13 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

I note you still haven't answered my question; do you have any experience with the TA set in play and how it plays differently now or are you just arguing from design theory? My hunch from your avoidance is that you're pure theory-crafting (and if you're not, you're certainly coming off that way) and have no real skin in the game of how this change affects the people who actually PLAY the set.

I haven't tried to negate or refute people's claims that the reduced range affects their playstyle, obviously they do. I've just pointed out that the reduced range doesn't actually make that playstyle completely unworkable.

 

13 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

You've asked others to do the work of proving you wrong, but the people saying its a problem posted first, that means it's your job to prove that our actual play experiences are wrong, not demanding we prove your 0 play/100% theory-crafting is incorrect.

Are you really going to call me out on theorycrafting and then defend other people theorycrafting without even any evidence? At least when I say that 50 feet is still outside of melee range I have numbers to back that up.

 

13 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Also, you keep saying the designer had limited tools, but things like range and mag and duration are spreadsheet data and Captain Powerhouse had to be aware of the ranges of the other Blaster secondary holds and immobilizes back when he was plugging them in and yet still chose to make them 80' to match the normal ranges of Blaster Primaries.

This is where the experience half of the equation applies.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Vanden

[Blackfeather]

17 minutes ago, Troo said:

Is there someone that can explain a bit the Stun and Hold changes from Mag 3, scale 12 to Mag 2, Scale 8 non stacking?

Actual impact?

Why?

What good is a Mag 1?

Basically, it's a Mag 2 + Mag 1 control now, similar to the other Blaster controls - scale refers to duration, before archetype modifiers come into play. So basically, it works as a shorter duration Mag 3, then trails off into a Mag 2 once the Mag 1's duration is lost. Hope this clears things up!

[Troo]

19 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

Basically, it's a Mag 2 + Mag 1 control now, similar to the other Blaster controls - scale refers to duration, before archetype modifiers come into play. So basically, it works as a shorter duration Mag 3, then trails off into a Mag 2 once the Mag 1's duration is lost. Hope this clears things up!

Thanks.

So does the first application get a full Mag 3 and then additional applications get the stacking Mag 1?

 

Bosses are Mag 3, Elite Bosses are 6 (that's if I am remembering correctly and we have to exceed the Magnitude, not just match, to get the effect)

[Blackfeather]

1 minute ago, Troo said:

Thanks.

So does the first application get a full Mag 3 and then additional applications get the stacking Mag 1?

 

Bosses are Mag 3, Elite Bosses are 6 (that's if I am remembering correctly and we have to exceed the Magnitude, not just match, to get the effect)

I think so, but I'm not sure - it sounds like Blaster'll be more easily able to affect bosses than Elite Bosses if that's the case though. Working as intended?

[Crowe]

On 10/24/2020 at 3:06 PM, Replacement said:

I do not think you understand what they did to this power.

• Still has full-time +ToHit
• Still has out-of-combat damage bonus
• In-combat damage bonus is replaced with a 20% chance to proc lethal damage

You're also forgetting the rest of the set's attacks are wildly improved.

I use NONE of the set's melee attacks.  I'd prefer to keep things ranged, thanks.  I want to play like a ranged ninja which is why I took this set.  The 20% chance is for criticals which Blasters shouldn't even be getting.  I'm feeling more like the archetype is being proliferated than the powers are.  With as many changes as they've been making, I understand why they aren't producing more than a single secondary set (and a non-proliferated one at that)... they're simply spending a lot of effort on stuff that was fine before.  I'm sure opinions may vary but yours has not swayed mine.  The set was fine as it was and if the changes go through, I have a character I no longer want to play.

[Bossk_Hogg]

On 10/25/2020 at 3:09 PM, Vanden said:

Normalizing Thunder Strike is a fraught proposal, since it's so far out of the norm for attack powers. Currently it's scale 2.98 damage to the target, and scale 0.42 damage to enemies in the AoE. With it's recharge and radius, if it were turned into a standard AoE attack it would do scale 1.271 damage to all targets, which is significantly less than Charged Brawl. If you wanted it to do the full damage to every enemy in the AoE, the recharge would have to be nearly 50 seconds.

 

Actually they'd probably just round it up to 50 seconds exactly.

DPA needs to be taken into account, and that it wasnt shows just how bad the OG devs were at balance. The damage design formula should be reworked to have animation time plus recharge and set the baseline at 1 second. Alternately I'll take that damage on a 50 second recharge and use it once a spawn once slotted. It beats the "never" it will sit at otherwise.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Bossk_Hogg

[Replacement]

49 minutes ago, Crowe said:

I use NONE of the set's melee attacks.  I'd prefer to keep things ranged, thanks.  I want to play like a ranged ninja which is why I took this set.  The 20% chance is for criticals which Blasters shouldn't even be getting.  I'm feeling more like the archetype is being proliferated than the powers are.  With as many changes as they've been making, I understand why they aren't producing more than a single secondary set (and a non-proliferated one at that)... they're simply spending a lot of effort on stuff that was fine before.  I'm sure opinions may vary but yours has not swayed mine.  The set was fine as it was and if the changes go through, I have a character I no longer want to play.

Thank you for the additional context!  That means your issue boils down to losing +15% damage bonus for the damage proc.

(the rest of the damage bonus - the portion which comes from staying out of combat - is still there)

 

That's a valid opinion but I can't help but think: If that alone is enough for you to shelve the character, it must have been a tenuous connection already.

 

I certainly won't sway you; your mind's made up.  But just remember: you are this up in arms about losing half of a small red inspiration in exchange for fantastic Lethal procs.

[Replacement]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

Thanks.

So does the first application get a full Mag 3 and then additional applications get the stacking Mag 1?

 

Bosses are Mag 3, Elite Bosses are 6 (that's if I am remembering correctly and we have to exceed the Magnitude, not just match, to get the effect)

 

1 hour ago, Blackfeather said:

I think so, but I'm not sure - it sounds like Blaster'll be more easily able to affect bosses than Elite Bosses if that's the case though. Working as intended?

Mag 3 is not enough to affect a boss, so this will be just like on Live with it locking down LTs.  Once the additional mag tapers off, it will only affect minions (though it'll still also be there to stack up with other effects, such as from procs). 

 

Tbh, I don't know what good it does to have the Mag 1 set to Stack, when it's the portion that only lasts 7 seconds.

[Blackfeather]

1 minute ago, Replacement said:

Mag 3 is not enough to affect a boss, so this will be just like on Live with it locking down LTs.  Once the additional mag tapers off, it will only affect minions (though it'll still also be there to stack up with other effects, such as from procs). 

 

Tbh, I don't know what good it does to have the Mag 1 set to Stack, when it's the portion that only lasts 7 seconds.

My guess: for the same reason that the AoE Holds now recharge at a rate of 180 seconds - to reduce the amount of control Blasters are capable of compared to actual archetypes focused on that (i.e. Controllers/Dominators).

[Replacement]

@Blackfeather Oh yes, absolutely.  I like this "mag 2.5" approach, and I hope to see some Control set buffs in a future page to further stress who the kings of mez are.  I just don't see the benefit to the mag 1 portion being set to Stack, when it wears off the moment you give the enemy a firm glance.

[Blackfeather]

Definitely hoping the devs take notice of that thread I've made for Controllers...but yes, I think I see what you mean. Maybe the intent's designed around locking down ~1 boss/handful of lieutenants/multiple minions? Would need to focus one's stacking down to keep a boss locked that way.

Edited October 27, 2020 by Blackfeather

[Nemu]

10 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

Definitely hoping the devs take notice on that thread I've made for Controllers...but yes, I think I see what you mean. Maybe the intent's designed around locking down ~1 boss/handful of lieutenants/multiple minions? Would need to focus one's stacking down to keep a boss locked that way.

I'd rather some of these control powers get the sonic deafening wave treatment. Chance for low mag mez, usable multiple times per fight instead of every or every other fight, and does damage. This applies especially to those secondaries that lean more towards melee. It's not like the ranged crowd will ever pick up a weak pbaoe mez or a short range cone mez based on the feedback I'm seeing on entangling arrow.  Melee blasters certainly don't need or depend on those for survival either, but making these powers do damage with a chance for mez at least gives them some pause in the thought process to weigh in the opportunity cost of taking such a power in place of something else. Last time I checked, options are a good thing, but on the other hand, having options that no one takes is bad design.