Focused Feedback: Blaster Secondary Revamp

[Vanden]

4 minutes ago, Moka said:

Spoiler

 

The EM changes are nice, but unless Energize gets the split toggle/click treatment I outlined in the third post in this thread, I don't think they're gonna make me do a Sicko Laugh

[Captain Powerhouse]

1 minute ago, Blackbird71 said:

So you could activate both Gymnastics and Combat Jumping at the same time, but you wouldn't have any better movement than just turning on one or the other. 

 

The problem is not just combat jumping though, in theory those two buffs could be made to override each-other easily as they are identical movement buffs, but when you enter powers like Super Jump or Ninja Run and many other jump powers into the question, then controlling the stacking becomes extremely challenging as the replacement becomes intermittent, or potentially results in the player getting the best of either power at once, what jump grouping is designed to prevent from the start.

 

It is something that was attempted. If I manage to actually make it work without loopholes, then the movement buff can come back.

[Epoch Paradox]

 I was enjoying force of thunder. Now it's gone from 30s to 90s recharge, made mostly a stun and rarely knocks down. I'm just not enjoying that anymore. I enjoy the dynamo +regen+recovery toggle. Can we please make Force Of Thunder enjoyable again?

Compared to Hand Clap: pbaoe, 30second recharge stun and knockback=fun... or even save us a slot and just make it knockdown instead of knockback!

Even the Peacebringer version gets 45 second recharge. Please don't ruin the fun. Please put Force of Thunder back to (most) of what it was? Did I mention please?

 

Also Lightning Clap from electrical melee - same thing with 30sec recharge.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Epoch Paradox

[Mystic Fortune]

I would prefer to keep both Gymnastics and Combat Jumping active at the same time, as it provides both Immobilize and Knockback Protection at the cost of 2 powers.

[Draeth Darkstar]

3 hours ago, Epoch Paradox said:

 I was enjoying force of thunder. Now it's gone from 30s to 90s recharge, made mostly a stun and rarely knocks down. I'm just not enjoying that anymore. I enjoy the dynamo +regen+recovery toggle. Can we please make Force Of Thunder enjoyable again?

Compared to Hand Clap: pbaoe, 30second recharge stun and knockback=fun... or even save us a slot and just make it knockdown instead of knockback!

Even the Peacebringer version gets 45 second recharge. Please don't ruin the fun. Please put Force of Thunder back to (most) of what it was? Did I mention please?

 

Also Lightning Clap from electrical melee - same thing with 30sec recharge.

Still hoping we can get it turned into a knockdown + damage AoE, Elec badly needs it.

[Lockpick]

Back to discuss ENA and the need to keep the range as is.  Numbers below are from Mids.

 

As I was thinking about why I felt so strongly that TA needed to keep the range on ENA it occurred to me that the reason was that TA had no melee damage powers.  When bad guys get in melee range we need to retreat or shoot while being pummeled.  In fact, TA only has 3 damage powers, which is tied for Temporal for the lowest number of damage powers in the secondary.  Temporal damage powers are all melee and TA has no melee damage powers.

 

I looked at Mids and wrote the numbers I saw.  As you can see TA has 0 melee powers and all the other sets have at least 3.

 

For the damage powers count I just looked at the powers and whether it did damage or not.  Some damage powers are specials like Gun Drone and Trip Mine.  Caltrops is listed as TAoE, but they are basically in melee range.  I classified TWG & Caltrops as ranged, but Caltrops seems more similar to Trip Mine to me than a true ranged power.  

 

What is the so what?

 

It looks to me that TA was conceived as ranged secondary with more focus on control and less focus on damage since it has the least number of damage powers and zero melee damage powers. 

 

I would suggest that keeping the range on ENA is consistent with this philosophy and further I would suggest when playing a TA character that their need to stay out of melee is greater than other secondaries because they have no melee damage powers to use in melee.

 

I hope this seems logical to everyone.

 

 

Secondary	Tier 1	Range	Damage	Damage Powers	Mix	Comments
Atomic	Immobilized	50	71.95	5	3 Melee / 2 Ranged
Darkness	Immobilized	80	62.56	7	6 Melee / 1 Ranged
Devices	Immobilized	50	62.56	6	4 Melee / 2 Ranged*	Caltrops counted as Range, but close to melee and/or special
Electricity	Immobilized	50	62.56	6	5 Melee / 1 Ranged
Energy	KB	7	44.49	4	4 Melee / 0 Ranged
Fire	Immobilized	50	96.34	8	7 Melee / 1 Ranged
Ice	Immobilized	50	62.56	4	3 Melee / 1 Ranged
Martial	KB	7	44.49	5	5 Melee / 0 Ranged
Mental	Immobilized	80	62.56	6	4 Melee / 2 Ranged
Ninja	Immobilized	50	25.02	5	3 Melee / 2 Ranged
Plant	Immobilized	50	62.56	5	3 Melee / 2 Ranged
TA	Immobilized	80	62.56	3	0 Melee / 3 Ranged
Temporal	Immobilized	50	0	3	3 Melee / 0 Ranged

 

 

 

[Solarverse]

I can't be the only one who was hoping to see the +Recovery being removed from Touch of the Beyond to Death Shroud. I really hate that the +Recovery is tied to a power that is a click and requires a target. I really want to play /Dark but for as long as the +Recovery is tied to a click that requires a target, I just can't. That set could REALLY use some love too, since it is the second least played set in game, only being 11 players short of being the absolute least played set in the Blaster Secondaries neck and neck with the least played set which is Ninja Training. I have a thread on it here for reference to the idea and the statistics.
 

For me personally, if we could move the +Recovery from Touch of the Beyond to Death Shroud, that's all the set would need to entice me to actually play the set.

[carroto]

On 10/25/2020 at 1:22 PM, Heraclea said:

My stealthy electric/electric blaster needs a taunt aura like she needs a hole in the head.

I have the same issue with this change.  Being able to move around missions in stealth is a core component of my play style.  Enemy-notifying auras completely break that.  There are already quite a few Blaster secondaries that I can't play for this reason.  Unfortunately I only found out about /Martial's aggro aura / sustain after I leveled to 20 and tried it out.  That Blaster got parked permanently.  Was really too bad because I liked /Martial otherwise.

 

I just rolled up my first /Elec Blaster not that long ago.  Then this patch comes out and apparently it's going to shut down another of my characters.  As it stands there are fewer and fewer Blaster secondaries that are any good (for me of course).  I guess I'll have to resign myself to using the same few secondaries over and over.  Well at least my /Elec Blaster is only low level.  I haven't invested much time.  I feel for those players who have.

 

In the past there was a possible workaround.  Not a great one, but sufficient.  I could take Invisibility and take advantage of the OAS in it to avoid notifying mobs.  However the OAS was removed from Invisibility a while back despite protestations from players who used it in this way.  So now there's not even a workaround.

 

It would be great if we could get the enemy-affecting components of those auras to suppress while under the effect of some minimum threshold of stealth, like Stalkers do when in Hide.  I'm not really expecting it though.  More likely I'll just have to write off /Elec.

 

I'm tempted to invoke the Cottage Rule, but that debate has apparently already been had up-thread.  Whether or not this change technically violates that rule, I'd say it certainly does violate the more fundamental design principles that led to the rule.  I remember the great care the original devs took to avoid making changes that would break player's characters or invalidate a play style, even if it was an extreme minority of players who engaged in it.  Of course at times they did, but it was clear that they only did so when they felt it was essential and they'd explored every possible alternative.

 

I remember that there were many changes that were proposed or made it to beta, and when the devs learned about how it was affecting players they went back and found another way.  There's just no way they would have done some of the things we're seeing here.  I hate to be so negative and just complain.  I have a great deal of appreciation for the devs here volunteering their time.  It shouldn't be surprising that they can't put the same level of effort into these changes as a team of people being paid full-time.  I guess if I could make one request, it would be to be a little slower on the trigger with these changes.  If a change will break people's characters and that change isn't absolutely essential for game balance in the short-term, maybe just leave it until a better solution can be found.

[carroto]

On 10/27/2020 at 10:47 AM, Chris24601 said:

other than institutional inertia, what is the rationale for ANY Blaster secondary single target immobilizes being just 50’ instead of the same 80’ as their primary attacks?

I had this same exact thought.  I'd love to see a discussion based on first principles around why it should be shorter than other attacks.  Something other than "Well it's always been that way."  After all, that decision was made during the infamous part of Jack's reign in which he was trying to force people to play the "right way", which was different from what people actually enjoyed.

 

In practice if I want to use all of my powers I'll tend to have to be at the shortest range of all of them.  So one power having a shorter range means that's the max distance I can be from enemies.  All my powers might as well have that same short range.  Sure I could use my immobilize only on enemies that are trying to close on me, but even then it can be hard to judge the distance, and I'll often get that "out of range" sound.  It's clunky and makes the power so much less useful that I'm tempted to just take it off the tray.

 

It seems to me like the sort of decision that seems great in the design session, but doesn't work out so great in actual play.  Unfortunately sometimes those things become ossified and take way too long (or never) to get reconsidered.

[Vanden]

55 minutes ago, carroto said:

I had this same exact thought.  I'd love to see a discussion based on first principles around why it should be shorter than other attacks.  Something other than "Well it's always been that way."  After all, that decision was made during the infamous part of Jack's reign in which he was trying to force people to play the "right way", which was different from what people actually enjoyed.

I have to guess that it's because ranged stuff is in the Blaster primaries. The vast majority of powers in the Blaster secondaries are either melee-range stuff or self-buffs. A few debuff powers, the immobilizes, two single-target fears, and Psychic Scream were the only ranged powers in the secondaries until Captain Powerhouse starting making more of them, and even then the only major course change he made was the ranged holds that are getting nerfed.

[CaptainLupis]

1 hour ago, carroto said:

I had this same exact thought.  I'd love to see a discussion based on first principles around why it should be shorter than other attacks.  Something other than "Well it's always been that way."  After all, that decision was made during the infamous part of Jack's reign in which he was trying to force people to play the "right way", which was different from what people actually enjoyed.

 

In practice if I want to use all of my powers I'll tend to have to be at the shortest range of all of them.  So one power having a shorter range means that's the max distance I can be from enemies.  All my powers might as well have that same short range.  Sure I could use my immobilize only on enemies that are trying to close on me, but even then it can be hard to judge the distance, and I'll often get that "out of range" sound.  It's clunky and makes the power so much less useful that I'm tempted to just take it off the tray.

 

It seems to me like the sort of decision that seems great in the design session, but doesn't work out so great in actual play.  Unfortunately sometimes those things become ossified and take way too long (or never) to get reconsidered.

Yeah, I've always hated that too, it's just plain annoying and makes attack chains frustrating, especially when mobs are scattering all over the place. I really can't see the logic in it. Maybe if it were an AoE I could see the point, but for a single target power where it's not like the others in the spawn can't return fire as you are both in range of each other? Nah, I don't get it. Usually those powers get skipped or are set mules, nothing more.

[Lockpick]

25 minutes ago, CaptainLupis said:

Yeah, I've always hated that too, it's just plain annoying and makes attack chains frustrating, especially when mobs are scattering all over the place. I really can't see the logic in it. Maybe if it were an AoE I could see the point, but for a single target power where it's not like the others in the spawn can't return fire as you are both in range of each other? Nah, I don't get it. Usually those powers get skipped or are set mules, nothing more.

Currently ENA is a valid attack power for me that is used in a regular attack rotation with 6 slots and a full IO set (Thunderstrike).  If the range is changed it will likely be changed to a 4 slot immobilize set mule that is never used.

[CaptainLupis]

6 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

Currently ENA is a valid attack power for me that is used in a regular attack rotation with 6 slots and a full IO set (Thunderstrike).  If the range is changed it will likely be changed to a 4 slot immobilize set mule that is never used.

That's a pain as the ranged def is nice, but using 6 slots on a power that never gets used is generally not a great idea.

 

Things like this do make me wonder if the devs ever play these sets, especially solo, to see how they work, rather than just looking at the numbers. But then, ever since my first ever 50 got gutted in the great regen nerf of yore I try not to get too attached to my alts, as it's completely outwith my control as to whether I can keep playing them the way I enjoy.

[Chris24601]

10 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

Currently ENA is a valid attack power for me that is used in a regular attack rotation with 6 slots and a full IO set (Thunderstrike).  If the range is changed it will likely be changed to a 4 slot immobilize set mule that is never used.

I will say, I don’t know how your character is slotted up, but I’ve been able to switch some slotting around to where I’m only down about 2 mph on my run and jump (I got my flight speed back), about 5 dpa off my ENA and 4 ft off it’s range (82’ vs. Snap Shot’s 86’) and, I think 4% off my AoE defense as long as I don’t exemp below level 29 (32 is no loss, but the range loss is barely feelable at 29). I also ended up with my ranged and energy/neg defense bumping up a point (46% and 44% respectively) and my global accuracy up about 8 points, which covered the loss in ENA due to not slotting the Acc/Dam and Acc/Dam/End from Thunderstrike in it (using two 50+5 IOs instead).

 

Accepting that the devs feel the set needs a nerf, those losses feel “acceptable”; though it’ll be very costly on live to rebuild after the break.

 

That said, I’d still prefer the range be left alone and something else in ENA and Ice Arrow to be nerfed and for ESD Arrow to keep its hold, because then whatever losses will be what the devs actually intended them to be and the breaks from changing Acrobatics/Gymnastics and Oil Slick Arrow can be fixed with just a respec and no additional costs.

 

I really doubt Captain Powerhouse nerfed the range thinking “this will cost Tac Arrow players tens of millions of influence, shave off a few set bonuses and make them less willing to help out lower level players,” but that’s what the range nerfs are ACTUALLY doing for this actual player of the set.

 

Like I’ve said throughout this, Tac Arrow players are willing to give up a LOT to keep their range on their bread & butter abilities. I gave up quite a bit of time to devise a workaround on Test and was willing to lose multiple set bonuses and other slotting bonuses plus now working to earn the significant piles of merits/influence on live to afford the changes needed to keep the range with minimal losses elsewhere.

 

Far better, I think, would be for Captain Powerhouse to keep the range and look for nerfs Tac Arrow players will NOT completely subvert in an effort to keep their range. Again, things like mez duration or mag or even the base accuracy are all things we’d be happy to give up without feeling the need to completely rebuild our characters from the ground up just to keep what they’re currently thinking of taking away... then at least there’d be a measure of control from the dev side in terms of affecting how the set is played, because currently each player is going to be evaluating their builds and making different changes to keep the range... or just shelving the characters as unplayable.

[Adashi]

Not sure if its been posted but Time Wall is not accepting Damage Enhancements Sets

[macskull]

4 hours ago, carroto said:

Being able to move around missions in stealth is a core component of my play style

You might like the next beta build patch.

[CaptainLupis]

4 minutes ago, macskull said:

You might like the next beta build patch.

How so? I can't actually get on to the test server (game keeps crashing when it tries to load a zone) so I've not been able to check things out for myself.

[macskull]

Just now, CaptainLupis said:

How so? I can't actually get on to the test server (game keeps crashing when it tries to load a zone) so I've not been able to check things out for myself.

According to the patch notes posted on one of the testing Discord servers, most of the Blaster sustain auras that also have a debuff component will be suppressed when the Stealth power is active.

[Lockpick]

6 minutes ago, macskull said:

According to the patch notes posted on one of the testing Discord servers, most of the Blaster sustain auras that also have a debuff component will be suppressed when the Stealth power is active.

Does that include Reaction Time in Martial Combat?

[carroto]

3 hours ago, Lockpick said:

Does that include Reaction Time in Martial Combat?

I don't see why it wouldn't.  If so that's amazing because honestly if I had to choose between /Elec and /Martial as a Blaster secondary to be brought back into playability for me, I'd choose /Martial.  I guess I'd have to take another look at /Fire and /Ice as well.  Lots to consider.

 

Of course we'll have to see if/when it arrives how it works.  I can't think of any reason why it shouldn't work, but we won't know until we test it out.

[Heraclea]

Anyone have experience with Repulsion Bomb, and how it compares with current Force of Thunder? 

[Epoch Paradox]

32 minutes ago, Heraclea said:

Anyone have experience with Repulsion Bomb, and how it compares with current Force of Thunder? 

other than an aoe component and a knock component, I don't know that they do compare. Target aoe vs pbaoe. Epic Pool or from force field? Force field version gets 30 second recharge 70' range and is target aoe with moderate dmg as well. Force of Thunder is pbaoe and does no damage. I only have experience using the blaster epic pool version. Other info provided by MIDS Reborn.

[csr]

On 10/29/2020 at 11:07 AM, Heraclea said:

Anyone have experience with Repulsion Bomb, and how it compares with current Force of Thunder? 

I have it on one of my main's builds (his I21 build).  Its long cast time (3.07s) is the main drawback.  He's Fire/En/Force in that build, so I used to lead off with it, then Fireball and Fire Breath.  That's enough in his build to wipe out the non-Bosses in the spawn before they get back up.  His HC build (which is a max DPS build) replaces it with Bonfire thanks to the KB downgrade specials.  Longer Recharge (120s vs 45s), but 25' radius instead of 15', more total mitigation, and only needs 2 slots (the KB downgrade and a TAoE -Res) instead of the 6 I have in the old build.

 

Comparing it with Force of Thunder...

 

Repulsion Bomb:  45s Rech, 3.07s cast, 21.14 END, 62.56 Damage, 70' Range, 1.2x Acc, 15' radius, 16 targets, KD, 40% chance of Mag 2 Stun for 9.54s, +6.20% Defiance damage

Force of Thunder:   90s Rech, 1.23 cast, 13.00 END, no Damage, no Range, 1.0 Acc, 20' radius, 11 targets, 30% chance for KB, Mag 2 Stun for 9.54s + Mag 1 for 5.96s, +2.50% Defiance damage

 

To me, Rep Bomb is clearly the better power.  FoT has better Stun and Radius and a much faster cast, but the lack of Range, the KB instead of KD, lower target cap and acc, lack of damage and doubled Recharge time more than offset that, IMO.  You can't get Rep Bomb until 41, FoT is available at 35 in this build.  So, basically, you'd lose it for L30-35 content.

 

Force of Thunder has basically been turned into Dark Pit minus the Range and with a KB component that is probably a net negative.  It sucks.

 

Edited October 31, 2020 by csr

[zenblack]

Devices Feedback (and unhelpful comments!)

 

Gun Drone - The resistance has made this little guy stick around for quite a bit longer. The knockup component is interesting but it has a seemingly low ACC and it has a very small AOE (smaller than the drone exploding). No damage is not surprising since you can't really control when this thing is going to explode and I wouldn't want it counting against the set's overall damage potential. The gun drone still cannot be renamed though the option is present (please allow!). I'm not sure what the intention of the taunt is but it can reliably hold aggro of only 1 minion, with 2 being more than it can handle, this is even with you not doing any damage to the minions. It cannot hold aggro for more than half a second on a Lieutenant even if you are not damaging it though you can gain a little bit if you space out so the enemy has to turn back and forth as long as you are not hitting it. The damage is still pretty lackluster but it does follow pretty well and with speed.

 

-- Not Included but regarding overall place in Blaster sustain --

 

Field Operative - This shares 2 of it's values (regen/end) with a number of other sets with it's regen at Lvl 50 with 84.51% ED (good slotting) ~21 hp/sec (with full accolades) or ~22 hp/sec with 95.90% ED with 2 50+5's. It's a bit of a squeeze since it takes Defense as well as Endurance slotting. These figures can be bumped a +/- 1 hp/sec depending on hp slotting, which is pretty limited on a Blaster.

Edited October 29, 2020 by zenblack

[JollyGreen9630]

On 10/25/2020 at 7:21 AM, Lockpick said:

I have to agree with this as well.  I'm fine with the changes to Mez, but not the range.  I use ENA at range with SS and AS.  I want my A/TA character to play at range, not get into melee range.  Please revert the range back to HC Live range.

100% Agreed, Archey/TA may be a fun build gimmick because of its ridiculous range, but that was also the fun of it as it never really pushes top DPS anyways.

The range nerfs are quite baffling on where the balance is, especially considering the range IS what made them balanced and a fun choice in the first place.

 

I do not want to shelve my Arch/TA blaster, please.