Focused Feedback: Other Powers Changes

[InvaderStych]

6 hours ago, Wavicle said:

On LIVE Scrapper Energy Aura Entropic Aura HAS NO Taunt component, as far as I know. On Test it seems like it has been added? This was intentional I guess? But I don't recall seeing it in the patch notes.

On Test Scrapper Entropic Aura does have Taunt, and so does Beta Decay, but Beta Decay didn't get the Taunt sets made available? Definitely seems like at least one mistake in there somewhere.

 

I wondered about that myself.  I haven't touched /EnA since Live, and that was on a Brute so likely the taunt was there.

 

Scrapper Beta Decay (Live) definitely has a taunt component in Mids, and although I can't look at the moment I feel like it does in game as well based on the way mobs respond to my Kat/Rad in game.

[Jimmy]

9 hours ago, InvaderStych said:

@Jimmy

 

Checking again to see if there's a rational behind not giving Scrapper Beta Decay taunt sets while other Scrapper auras (AAO, RttC, etc) are getting them?

7 hours ago, Wavicle said:

This seems like it could be just an oversight.

However, there's something I'm confused by:

On LIVE Scrapper Energy Aura Entropic Aura HAS NO Taunt component, as far as I know. On Test it seems like it has been added? This was intentional I guess? But I don't recall seeing it in the patch notes.

On Test Scrapper Entropic Aura does have Taunt, and so does Beta Decay, but Beta Decay didn't get the Taunt sets made available? Definitely seems like at least one mistake in there somewhere.

55 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

 

I wondered about that myself.  I haven't touched /EnA since Live, and that was on a Brute so likely the taunt was there.

 

Scrapper Beta Decay (Live) definitely has a taunt component in Mids, and although I can't look at the moment I feel like it does in game as well based on the way mobs respond to my Kat/Rad in game.

No powers have had a taunt component added. The only thing that's changed is slotting potential - some scrapper auras already had a taunt component, so those can now slot taunt sets.

That's the intention anyway. If there is a power which you can confirm has no taunt component on live, but does have so on test, then please post a bug report thread 🙂

[InvaderStych]

1 hour ago, Jimmy said:

No powers have had a taunt component added. The only thing that's changed is slotting potential - some scrapper auras already had a taunt component, so those can now slot taunt sets.

That's the intention anyway. If there is a power which you can confirm has no taunt component on live, but does have so on test, then please post a bug report thread 🙂

 

Thank you for the detail, so does this mean we should expect Scrapper Beta Decay to accept taunt sets on Beta? 

 

Patch notes still show BD as Brute/Tank versions only getting the change.  I'm working on the road until Monday, but I'll check out both Live and Beta in detail when I get home.

[Jimmy]

14 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

Thank you for the detail, so does this mean we should expect Scrapper Beta Decay to accept taunt sets on Beta? 

 

Yes, that's an error in the patch notes.

[InvaderStych]

2 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

Yes, that's an error in the patch notes.

Awesome! Thank you!

 

Can't wait to try that out!

[Gobbledigook]

3 hours ago, Replacement said:

This section, especially the bolded part, is incorrect.

 

On Live, it deals no damage and affects a single target.  On beta, it's also an aoe damaging attack.  It may not be great, but it's still everything it is Live and more.

 

They cannot "take away the to hit debuff from the AoE" because it never had it.

Honestly that is just nit picking. Waste of a post. I think most people understood what i meant, obviously not you though.

 

To hit debuffs are part of the set just like stuns and kds for other sets etc. The power always had a to hit debuff but it has  changed to AoE and the AoE component should have the to hit debuff. 

 

Shadow maul is not what it is on live though is it? why because of ToF. So it is not everything it is on live and more is it? lol

 

Energy melee gets better single target damage and has increased targets on a cone and still has a PBaoE. Dark is no where near as good with a very weak melee TAoE that actually nerfs SM to get.

Edited November 14, 2020 by Gobbledegook

[Replacement]

1 minute ago, Gobbledegook said:

Honestly that is just nit picking. Waste of a post. I think most people understood what i meant, obviously not you though.

 

To hit debuffs are part of the set just like stuns and kds for other sets etc. The power always had a to hit debuff but it has  changed to AoE and the AoE component should have the to hit debuff. 

 

Shadow maul is not what it is on live though is it? why because of ToF. So it is not everything it is on live and more is it? lol

You're posting bad information and I'm cleaning it up so others don't get the wrong idea.

 

ToF didn't "lose" aoe -ToHit.

[Gobbledigook]

1 minute ago, Replacement said:

You're posting bad information and I'm cleaning it up so others don't get the wrong idea.

 

ToF didn't "lose" aoe -ToHit.

No it gained AoE but the to hit debuff stayed single target. If it changed to AoE it should do AoE to hit debuff also. 

 

In a way it DID lose AoE to hit debuff.

 

[Jimmy]

It didn't lose an AoE debuff. Please drop that. Thanks.

[Gobbledigook]

1 hour ago, Jimmy said:

It didn't lose an AoE debuff. Please drop that. Thanks.

Could you increase the radius of Touch of Fear to 8ft at least for us to test?

 

 

[modest]

@Jimmy Please take the time to read the feedback from players who have tested the Dark Melee changes on the beta server. Of the players who have actually tested the new Touch of Fear, none of them have had anything positive to say about it.

 

The beta version of Touch of Fear is objectively the worst spherical AOE power that Stalkers receive. I'll quote Bopper's post here with the numbers that back up that statement:

On 11/11/2020 at 5:09 PM, Bopper said:

Just a quick break down of numbers, I count 14 primary attacks available to Stalkers that are classified as Spherical AoEs. Among those, only Spine Burst has lower DPA (but is available at level 2 and has a 15 ft radius as opposed to ToF available at level 26 with 6 ft radius). In terms of raw damage, Touch of Fear is by far the worst of these powers, doing only 0.8630 scale damage (over 3.1 seconds). Next lowest is Spine Burst with its 1.1362 scale damage (+31.7%). 

 

If the intent of these changes is to improve the AOE performance of a set that underperforms in AOE damage, then what is the point of adding a new power to the set that is measurably worse than every other existing power?

 

If the intent is to provide a quick fix to Dark Melee's lack of AOE performance, then might I suggest a simpler change: increase the radius of Shadow Maul to match the 10ft radius of Energy Melee's new cone, Power Crash. According to Ruby's API, Shadow Maul has a DPA of 38 and the new Power Crash has a DPA of 60.3 (without Arcanatime factored in either calculation). Shadow Maul has a radius of 7ft, and Power Crash has a radius of 10ft.

 

This small change would provide Dark Melee with a considerable AOE boost from levels 2 through 35, and would negate the need to introduce any new or altered powers until the developers have a chance to give Dark Melee further consideration.

[WindDemon21]

16 minutes ago, modest said:

@Jimmy Please take the time to read the feedback from players who have tested the Dark Melee changes on the beta server. Of the players who have actually tested the new Touch of Fear, none of them have had anything positive to say about it.

 

The beta version of Touch of Fear is objectively the worst spherical AOE power that Stalkers receive. I'll quote Bopper's post here with the numbers that back up that statement:

 

If the intent of these changes is to improve the AOE performance of a set that underperforms in AOE damage, then what is the point of adding a new power to the set that is measurably worse than every other existing power?

 

If the intent is to provide a quick fix to Dark Melee's lack of AOE performance, then might I suggest a simpler change: increase the radius of Shadow Maul to match the 10ft radius of Energy Melee's new cone, Power Crash. According to Ruby's API, Shadow Maul has a DPA of 38 and the new Power Crash has a DPA of 60.3 (without Arcanatime factored in either calculation). Shadow Maul has a radius of 7ft, and Power Crash has a radius of 10ft.

 

This small change would provide Dark Melee with a considerable AOE boost from levels 2 through 35, and would negate the need to introduce any new or altered powers until the developers have a chance to give Dark Melee further consideration.

Yep been saying this a while. Make its radius 10ft, and then make DCs rech 60 seconds with about double its current damage. 60s is not out of line with how other end gain powers are plus it requires a to hit check, and double damage at 60 seconds would be far below standard dps formulas but with the end gain, and rech slotting/bonuses would put it at a perfect medium for the sets aoe and make it actually useful. (Much like consume as well, 3 minutes for a one shot end gain power that requires a to hit check is WAY out of balance, it and consume should both be at 60s like power sink, energy absorption, energy drain etc, all which are auto hit also btw)

[WindDemon21]

On 11/10/2020 at 7:24 PM, modest said:

It is functionally impossible to hit more than 3 enemies with this power due to its 6ft radius. The 10 target cap is essentially meaningless.

While this is discussed, can we please also look at Spinning Strike in street justice and give that some love too. Same 6ft radius and is quite horrid for a melee "aoe". Honestly enough so it's why i stopped playing my stj on live, and redoing a scrapper getting to the 30s is making me want to reroll him again as well. Since you're spinning your whole body/fists/foot anyway with that power, it should really be pbaoe anyway, not the weird little taoe attack it is.

 

Even thunder strike, which is the same, but it's radius is 7ft instead of 6ft, has a much more noticeable usability, but given how it works, on a melee AT, if the "aoe" is going to be targetted instead of pbaoe, it should really have a 10ft radius. But for spinning strike, that should definitely be pbaoe.

[Hew]

17 hours ago, modest said:

@Jimmy Please take the time to read the feedback from players who have tested the Dark Melee changes on the beta server. Of the players who have actually tested the new Touch of Fear, none of them have had anything positive to say about it.

I have said positive things, and I have tested it extensively. Please do not lump me blindly in with a group of people that do not reflect how I feel or what I do or do not like the power, based on proximity of actually testing.

 

Thank you.

[CrudeVileTerror]

I haven't got to test Dark Melee's Touch of Fear changes extensively, but the initial reaction is very much a "nope, don't like it."   I use Touch of Fear as-is extensively on my Dark Melee characters on the Live servers.  I find that it's a really useful Power for mitigation and target control.  The addition of Damage to it is undermining that usefulness and destabilizing my playstyle.

I suppose I'll adapt, but it's certainly not checking any boxes in my "fun" department.

[Gobbledigook]

I would have liked to have seen something more interesting than this ToF. It is a spammy low radius AoE, it is pretty boring really.

 

I don't understand why it is mentioned as a filler until epic pools...surely the epic pools should be the fillers. Dark obliteration is a far better AoE.

 

Can we get some of the thinking that created Energy Melee please. 

 

ToF, Soul drain and Dark consumption, all need looking at as an AoE.

 

Sorry to be negative but i just don't like the spammy low radius nature of it. Lets not have to redo this again in a few months time.

Edited November 15, 2020 by Gobbledegook

[Hew]

2 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

 

 

I don't understand why it is mentioned as a filler until epic pools...surely the epic pools should be the fillers. Dark obliteration is a far better AoE.

 

 

Because epics are... epic? You know, not a t1,2,3 or 4 power that you generally cycle out of anyway because it no longer supports high level play at the same level as 5,6,7,8,9 powers?

[Gobbledigook]

17 minutes ago, Hew said:

Because epics are... epic? You know, not a t1,2,3 or 4 power that you generally cycle out of anyway because it no longer supports high level play at the same level as 5,6,7,8,9 powers?

 

I know what you are saying but usually i just use them to fill any gaps like AoE or more single target etc. I just think it is a weird idea to want to dismiss a skill to a power set once epics are opened up, considering the time it takes to hit 35 nowadays. I can't imagine Claws Spin being replaced by epics for example.

[modest]

19 minutes ago, Hew said:

Because epics are... epic? You know, not a t1,2,3 or 4 power that you generally cycle out of anyway because it no longer supports high level play at the same level as 5,6,7,8,9 powers?

Touch of Fear is the T8 power for Stalkers.

 

4 hours ago, Hew said:

I have said positive things, and I have tested it extensively. Please do not lump me blindly in with a group of people that do not reflect how I feel or what I do or do not like the power, based on proximity of actually testing.

 

Thank you.

I apologize for having besmirched the honor of your clan. Please consider yourself de-lumped with eyes wide open.

[Gobbledigook]

I think ToF with an 8ft radius and a 12-20 second cooldown with appropriate damage may please people more. Could be worth a test at least.

Edited November 15, 2020 by Gobbledegook

[Kanil]

2 hours ago, Hew said:

Because epics are... epic? You know, not a t1,2,3 or 4 power that you generally cycle out of anyway because it no longer supports high level play at the same level as 5,6,7,8,9 powers?

this is kind of the thing i'm talking about in my post - out of all of the t1-5 powers (since 4 tends to be the AT's ie scrapper/brute BU, tanker taunt, stalker AS, etc.) it's actually the only actual early AOE power that would be 'cycled out' (by intention) instead of just outright not picked. it's kinda like fire breath, but... a little better i guess? the nature/value of AOE usually makes it a binary choice beyond the "what else do i pick" aspect, which is pretty real.

 

like, here's the total list of attacks you're directly comparing it to:

guarded spin, slice, flashing steel, spin, typhoon's edge (db whirling), jacob's ladder, breath of fire, frost, repulsing torrent, psi blade sweep, proton sweep, shred, spine burst, sweeping cross, defensive sweep, titan sweep.

 

there's also two weirdo aoes that don't do damage: hand clap, ice patch. which are obvious skips for most folks. not sure if they fall itno

which are those attacks are powers that you actively cycle out at the end instead of just... not picking?

 

i feel like i'm repeating myself over and over, but the general dearth of aoe moves means that the new ToF is in an awkward spot because there's no power that has that... 'design intention'? there's just... bad powers and good powers, and it's kind of sitting closer to the bad side than the good side. even in the 'bad' powersets, slice, guarded spin, and repulsing torrent are all in regular use.

 

the awkward design of dark melee lacking it's build up equivalent until very far into it's powerset alongside the weird stuff going on with the damage being attached to dark consumption and soul drain makes touch of fear just like... another awkward thing in the powerset? i dunno.

 

and that's before you start going into the actual performance of the power itself from a 'strength value' level, y'know?

 

[Burnt Umber]

On 11/13/2020 at 2:41 PM, Jimmy said:

•  Shadow Maul
  • Target cap reduced from 10 to 5 (16 to 10 for Tankers)
•  Touch of Fear
  • Now a melee targeted AoE with a 10 target cap (16 for Tankers)
  • Now deals negative energy damage over time
  • Fear duration reduced by roughly 50%
  • Cast time increased from 1.17s to 1.97s
  • Only the main target will be affected by the Fear and ToHit debuff
  • Now accepts Targeted AoE Damage sets

Having played with these Dark Melee changes on the Test Server, I have mixed feelings.  On one hand, I normally skip Touch of fear on my build, so making it into a damage power renews my interest in taking it.  However, on the other hand, Touch of Fear as it is on the Test Server doesn't function very well in my opinion, hitting too few critters and taking too long to deliver out the full damage to them.

 

As it stands, the small radius of the power makes hitting more than a few (3-ish maybe?) of the critters surrounding me difficult, if not impossible;.  The Damage over Time aspect makes the unhelpful in clearing the spawn (I feel as though I have to fall back on my single target attack chain to achieve this).  And, the lack of the mez/debuff affecting all of the hit targets limits the power's utility.

 

I would be much happier with the power if it were either to have a larger radius or to be a PbAoE, thereby enabling the power to be reasonably able to affect the target cap's worth of critters.  I would also prefer that the power and some upfront damage attached - similar to the changes that were made to Midnight's Grasp back on Live.  And while I wish that the mez/debuff affected all of the hit targets, I can live with foregoing this for balance concerns.

 

Yet, if the point of the changes is (as other posters have suggested) to create some sort of stop-gap AoE damage power, then that is an unprecedented and unique design decision for this game.  (I cannot think of any power being designed to be useful on during the leveling up process and to be respec'ed out of later on.*)  But more importantly, I think that would be an unwise direction to go:  it creates a tax on Dark Melee players for leveling up by making them have to respec at whatever level the new Touch of Fear loses its efficacy, or else forgo the power altogether.  And, to me, that seems to run counter to the goal of making Dark Melee a more even set through this rework.

[Wavicle]

I would add just generally I think powers designed to be respeccd out of are poorly designed.  No powers should be thought of that way, though some powers should be at least not So essential that they Can be skipped.

[Jacke]

58 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

I would add just generally I think powers designed to be respeccd out of are poorly designed.  No powers should be thought of that way, though some powers should be at least not So essential that they Can be skipped.

 

Agreed.  I wouldn't want a power designed to be a leveling crutch, expecting it to be thrown away at a higher level.

 

I still remembered reading a article early in my playing City that went into a lot of detail on leveling a Dark/Dark Scrapper, with build for levels 1 to 12 with TO slotting, then levels 13 to 22 with DOs, then to level 40 with SOs, then a respec, then a level 50 respec build, then some alternate builds.

 

But with all those builds, the powers respec'ed out of were good powers, like Air Superiority, the melee attack in the Flight Pool, to give another attack before others unlocked in Dark Melee.  That was well before other powers were added to do this, like the Origin Inherent Attacks and the Veteran Attacks (now P2W) Sands of Mu, Ghost Slaying Axe, Blackwand, and Nemesis Staff.

 

I like to design a build that I can both level and later play at 50, with a bit of accommodation to respecing.  Eventually I'll revise the build as I get more knowledge about its power and how they work together.   But I'll never plan to respec just to change things at a later level.

 

Link to that article in the spoiler.

 

Both articles are old, for Issue 6 "Along Came a Spider", when Arachnos and Enhancement Diversification burst upon the scene.  Really only historical interest now. 🙂

2006 Mar 30  The DM/DA Bible by The_Gamemaster
https://web.archive.org/web/20120904231124/http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=112231

Between that and this one on the Dark/Dark Defender:

2006 Jan 04  Dark/Dark Defender's Guide: Issue 6/ED by BlackestNight
https://web.archive.org/web/20120904083528/http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=114286

reading them late in 2006 led me to create my original Dark/Dark Scrapper and Dark/Dark Defender in 2006 November.

 

Edited November 19, 2020 by Jacke

[Burnt Umber]

3 hours ago, Jacke said:

 

Agreed.  I wouldn't want a power designed to be a leveling crutch, expecting it to be thrown away at a higher level.

 

I still remembered reading a article early in my playing City that went into a lot of detail on leveling a Dark/Dark Scrapper, with build for levels 1 to 12 with TO slotting, then levels 13 to 22 with DOs, then to level 40 with SOs, then a respec, then a level 50 respec build, then some alternate builds.

 

But with all those builds, the powers respec'ed out of were good powers, like Air Superiority, the melee attack in the Flight Pool, to give another attack before others unlocked in Dark Melee.  That was well before other powers were added to do this, like the Origin Inherent Attacks and the Veteran Attacks (now P2W) Sands of Mu, Ghost Slaying Axe, Blackwand, and Nemesis Staff.

 

I agree with you.  And, if I may, I draw a distinction between player guides/advice, like those you linked to, and the actual Developer articles/advice like the old "Dev Diaries" where a design philosophy or powerset strategy might be explained.  I don't mind if a player suggests filler attack or whatever (e.g., taking boxing/kick to get access to the fighting power pool's defensive powers) because that is not a mandate and I may freely disregard it should I so choose.  In contrast, I do mind if an actual Developers were suggesting as such (e.g., that my AoE damage should be coming from epic/patron power pools) because then I must adopt/adapt that design decision into my build.

 

I'm fine with changes being made to powers, sets, and even archetypes.  In fact, I'm thrilled that DM may have a real AoE ability, but I think ToF, as it is now on Test, feels very anemic for that purpose.  And I wonder why it is that way as well as if there is room for improvement.