Make Ice Control Cooler: A Control Powerset Buff

[Blackfeather]

15 hours ago, xl8 said:

I think given the changes to bonfire, this would be justified, but it would have to work in a similar way--chance is only applicable on cast to avoid being OP.

Hey there! That's exactly how it'd function - take a look at Force Feedback in Earth Control's Earthquake: it has a chance of going off upon activation. In fact, I'm pretty sure it'd be impossible for it to function in any other way, due to the power being a pseudopet. Talked about this to @Razor Cure a while back here.

15 hours ago, xl8 said:

-Rch, minor damage, TAoE enhs... yes, the rest is too OP.

Out of curiosity, why would creating fragile ice formations along with Flash Freeze be overpowered? It's basically designed as a means of occupying enemies for a little while, even if they prematurely break out of a Sleep, if only for a few moments.

[Blackfeather]

23 hours ago, xl8 said:

Mbe at lower levels. Ice trollers are devastating at 50+.

21 hours ago, xl8 said:

Arctic air, frostbite, a proc out block of ice, and ice slick are key to the to the ice troller's attack. Esp. frostbite for containment.

I only mentioned the main attack chain plus 50.

Hmmm...to be fair, most Control powersets have a single target Hold and an AoE Immobilize - these same things apply to them: Ice Control isn't really unique in that regard.

 

That leaves Arctic Air and Ice Slick:

• Arctic Air is indeed quite potent, but so are other AoE Confuses in other powersets
  • E.g. Seeds of Confusion and Synaptic Overload
  • Unlike the others, it provides enemies with an opportunity to attack before it sets in
• Ice Slick is effective at mitigating damage, but not really sure it constitutes a part of an attack chain
  • Unlike Fire Control's Bonfire, it doesn't actually do damage

While we've all different methods of looking at this issue, I, along with @Galaxy Brain, @WindDemon21, and @oedipus_tex all do seem to agree that Ice Control is lacking in damage compared to the other Control powersets.

 

Of course, some of this is offset by its secondary effect of -SPD, and naturally that's something to keep in mind. But I don't think that balance is quite there yet, and as such needs looking into.

[xl8]

 

9 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

Out of curiosity, why would creating fragile ice formations along with Flash Freeze be overpowered? It's basically designed as a means of occupying enemies for a little while, even if they prematurely break out of a Sleep, if only for a few moments.

Because the damage and taunt would open it the power up to far more damage proc than other sleep powers (it can already fit 4). The long rch would essentially turn this into an immobilizing, taunting mini nuke. (I mean, sign me up(!), but be prepared for complaints, nerfs and potential proc overhaul--the one thing I would try avoid at all costs, especially if tweaking ice was the straw that broke the camel's back).

 

1 hour ago, Blackfeather said:

That leaves Arctic Air and Ice Slick:

• Arctic Air is indeed quite potent, but so are other AoE Confuses in other powersets
  • E.g. Seeds of Confusion and Synaptic Overload
  • Unlike the others, it provides enemies with an opportunity to attack before it sets in
• Ice Slick is effective at mitigating damage, but not really sure it constitutes a part of an attack chain
  • Unlike Fire Control's Bonfire, it doesn't actually do damage

While we've all different methods of looking at this issue, I, along with @Galaxy Brain, @WindDemon21, and @oedipus_tex all do seem to agree that Ice Control is lacking in damage compared to the other Control powersets.

I agree Ice is underpowered, but the powers it can be paired with makes it very potent--such as the one i outlined.

Plant is top tier because of seeds and carrion.

Elec isn't great, it's fun and my Elec/Pain is a joy to play, but the numbers are low even with a fully proc jolting chain. Plus its heavily resisted.

Cold, on the other hand, is number 3 in damage types . It can also be slotted with slow damage procs, not amazing, granted, but useful over time.

Comparisons between slick and bonfire have only come about because of the KB to KD proc. Perhaps allowing some set enhancements in slick would be a fair buff. At present it can't accept any--which just goes to show how powerful the devs perceived its KD capability.

I'd tweak shiver to compensate--90 degree ranged facing cone, 100% slow, -rch, minor damage, open to TAoE enhs.

 

[Blackfeather]

17 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

I appreciate that we both have strong feelings about Ice Control and I value your suggestions. I'm glad you raised the topic of Ice Control because it is a set that is dear to me, my favorite in fact, even if I think it underperforms.

I did ping you to bring your attention to this thread for a reason. 😉

17 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

The builds in the video I posted don't have Shiver. It's a power I've taken numerous times thinking it won't be that bad, and then spec out of because it turns out not to be worthwhile. 135 degrees is about 1/3rd of a circle. That's a big area if the enemies are in front of you. If they are inside Arctic Air though it means 2/3rds of the area is unaffected. That is why I think Shiver is a better power on Blasters than Controllers/Dominators. The context is different.

 

Part of the reason for skipping it is the short duration. If it was updated for the newer Blaster version it would only be slightly more attractive. The issue is the blast area and the fact that a huge cone used at close range has a hard to predict area of effect that tends to needlessly aggro far off enemies.

Like I've said previously...

Quote

I'm going to point out that none of those videos have Shiver actually being used in them - I don't think it's fair to make assertions about how a power can't be used at a close distance if the videos in question don't directly dispute that. 😛

I'll also throw in my own personal experiences: I happen to like how cones play, and I see Shiver's shape as a feature, not a bug. While I'd be fine with it adopting a similar duration behaviour to how Blaster!Shiver works, I myself would find the power less appealing to use if it wasn't a cone.

17 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

For close to two decades Shiver has been a skippable power, which has prevented the optimal strategy from being hopping back from melee to use the cone and hopping back in. Any substantial buff to Shiver without modifying its blast area would make the set less unenjoyable to me rather than more.

Given your stance on Shiver, it kind of leaves me wondering why you're personally not that sold on a 50% chance to Hold in it. You've mentioned this:

Quote

What I personally really really do not want is a version of Shiver that is a still a cone and also a mezz. We have cone mezzes in game (Terrify, Fearsome Stare) and I don't feel Arctic Air will play nicely with them. The best thing I can say for Shiver currently is at least I can skip it. Adding a mezzing cone to Ice Control would be a big departure. That's why I think if any alpha breaker is considered it should go in Flash Freeze and not Shiver.

But I don't really see how it being a big departure is a problem in of itself if it's solving tangible problems that you've got with the power, namely of it being easier for you to use at range than close up. Having a 50% chance to Hold gives plenty of incentive for it to work as an early alpha breaker (and from a distance at that), something that Ice Control is heavily lacking in outside of Flash Freeze.

Edited November 28, 2020 by Blackfeather

[oedipus_tex]

3 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

Given your stance on Shiver, it kind of leaves me wondering why you're personally not that sold on a 50% chance to Hold in it. You've mentioned this: But I don't really see how it being a big departure is a problem in of itself if it's solving tangible problems that you've got with the power, namely of it being easier for you to use at range than close up. Having a 50% chance to Hold gives plenty of incentive for it to work as an early alpha breaker (and from a distance at that), something that Ice Control is heavily lacking in outside of Flash Freeze.

 

Thanks for your thoughts and for pinging me. I do think you have some good ideas and I'm always delighted to talk about Ice Control.

 

Over the years I've both dreamed of and dreaded updates to Ice Control. Dreamed of because I don't think the set reaches its potential, dreaded because I knew there would be some possibility of the style of gameplay being altered too drastically and the basic nature of the set altered. Specifically, I was afraid the cone power, Shiver, which has always been a superfluous power, would overtake the set and radically alter the experience.

 

In previous posts you compared Shiver to relatively short range attacks. But paradoxically, the larger a cone is the better it is to use from further back in order to maximize the blast area. Dominators  have lots of medium range cone attacks in their Assault sets but don't step backward to use them out of AA. But with a modified Shiver they would.

 

 

 

The reason you can ignore this right now is you can more or less get the effects of Shiver from other powers. Hopping back and forth to fire a power on a 30 sec recharge (which works out to a ~7 sec recharge on a perma dom build) would change the sets meta too drastically and make me want to avoid it. The way to avoid this is to make the effects somewhat duplicative of AA or else make the main mezz effect the main target only.

 

The set already has a ranged spherical alpha breaker in Flash Freeze if Ice Control needs a mezz breaker/damage power.

[Darkneblade]

When I think of Ice. We should also consider what it means have a frostbite. So enemy gets puts to sleep and they wake up from damage. But they will have brittle status for shortwhile. So if ice formations is little OP. Consider aftereffects of sleep on ice. Either brittle makes your next attack automatically applies containment damage regardless of enemy immobilized or not. Or give enemy -Res (all) for 10 seconds. Enough to worthwhile but not enough to become overpowered.

[Blackfeather]

On 11/28/2020 at 1:45 PM, oedipus_tex said:

Would you be willing to trade the Hold for Confuse? 

 

The Confuse in Arctic Air is one of the genius bits of design by the OG developers. Normally, -Recharge doesn't have a lot of value because enemies have to use their powers for it to mean anything. But since AA Confuses them into attacking each other and thus forcing their powers onto Recharge without expending the power on the player the -Recharge is useful.

 

In my previous suggestion I suggested the Confuse affect only the main target. That's because when you add Dominators to the mix things start to get weird. I wouldn't mind a Mag 6 Confuse on a single target with the ability to proc Contagious Confusion (which is a proc so never Dominates). 

 

I could see Shiver having a very low duration AoE Confuse identical to Arctic Air (~3.5 seconds on Controllers) without disrupting too much either.

Honestly, so long as Shiver has the potential to inflict a status effect across multiple enemies that can temporarily subdue them for a short amount of time, I really wouldn't mind what status effect it'd end up being. It'd carry the main intent of the change: to provide Ice Control with another way of managing alpha strikes to some degree, without being 'as good' as the other Control powersets, which lack that -Recharge aspect. I went with Holds primarily for a few reasons:

• Harder to stack than Confuse, given the presence of Arctic Air
• Has the largest amount of potential for procs = larger damage source
• Is the same as Neurotoxic Breath, which seems to be Shiver v2.0

[oedipus_tex]

6 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

I went with Holds primarily for a few reasons:

• Harder to stack than Confuse, given the presence of Arctic Air
• Has the largest amount of potential for procs = larger damage source
• Is the same as Neurotoxic Breath, which seems to be Shiver v2.0

 

I hear you. The reason I lean toward Confuse for Ice Control is how the mezz combos with -Recharge. If enemies are Held at the start of a fight, they break out with powers fully recharged, so the -Recharge debuff doesn't contribute. If they break out of a Confuse though they've been expending their powers on each other, so the -Recharge dings them. 

[Blackfeather]

On 11/28/2020 at 2:00 PM, Galaxy Brain said:

On phone so I can only do a quick response:

 

Re: AoE sleeps, I feel that each AoE sleep should have a unique perk per control set. 

 

Elec has this with it being a refreshing sleep.

 

Mind Control iirc is super fast and easy to use.

 

Others like Flash Freeze and Salt Crystals could use something. Flash Freeze getting "shatter" for damage potential as you break the sleep would be cool. Idk what salt would have but something unique as well would be nice. 

I've actually touched on this in the past in this thread of mine on how to improve Sleeps. Adding in some "secondary effect" related to the kind of Sleep made the most sense to me, hence the whole idea about summoning ice formations that enemies would need to break out of when Flash Freeze is activated.

 

I'd envision something similar for Earth Control's Salt Crystals, due to them being similar-ish in nature, summoning fragile formations for enemies to break. For more traditional "making enemies sleep" (e.g. Mass Hypnosis/Mesmerize), I'm a fan of the idea of causing enemies to sleep on the floor, forcing them to stand up before acting.

[oedipus_tex]

I like your ideas about Sleep and generally have no objections to changes to Flash Freeze.

 

The one thing to keep an eye on is that powers with mezz should theoretically double their Magnitudes in Domination mode. Not every power does this, but it's the general rule to keep Dominators and Controllers differentiated.

 

Somewhat related, I've also been pushing Dominator powers to retire the DoTs in the Assault sets in favor of direct damage wherever it makes sense to do so. Dominators are damage/control specialists, DoTs interfere with their lineups. This was done for Electric Control early in its design and why its immobilize doesn't have DoT while most older sets do.

Edited November 29, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Blackfeather]

On 11/28/2020 at 3:08 PM, oedipus_tex said:

I think all of them should have a 15 second recharge like the Electric one. 

 

I could see Ice Slick being changed to no longer knock over enemies who are Sleeping. Might be a bit of a stretch for Earthquake but maybe we could justify it somehow.

Quick correction: Static Field takes 40 seconds to recharge.

 

I actually don't really mind the fact that things like Ice Slick and Earthquake break Sleep effects, for the same reason that I don't mind other similar 'conflicting' powers in Control sets (e.g. Dimension Shift vs. Gravity Control's other powers, Spore Burst vs. Roots/Carrion Creepers) - stacking them together doesn't provide further control. Instead, they're better off being used in different groups of enemies to better lock down more of them at once.

 

I make that distinction to compare it to what I see as a 'beneficial' change: AoE Immobilises and how they no longer stop enemies from being knocked down (i.e. via knockdown patches like Ice Slick).

[Blackfeather]

On 11/29/2020 at 2:41 AM, xl8 said:

Because the damage and taunt would open it the power up to far more damage proc than other sleep powers (it can already fit 4). The long rch would essentially turn this into an immobilizing, taunting mini nuke. (I mean, sign me up(!), but be prepared for complaints, nerfs and potential proc overhaul--the one thing I would try avoid at all costs, especially if tweaking ice was the straw that broke the camel's back).

Well, that's simple enough to resolve: prevent the power from slotting the relevant IOs. What would you think of the power disregarding them? My main goal here wasn't to make Flash Freeze incredibly damaging, but to provide it with further utility even if the Sleep prematurely breaks.

On 11/29/2020 at 2:41 AM, xl8 said:

I agree Ice is underpowered, but the powers it can be paired with makes it very potent--such as the one i outlined.

Plant is top tier because of seeds and carrion.

Elec isn't great, it's fun and my Elec/Pain is a joy to play, but the numbers are low even with a fully proc jolting chain. Plus its heavily resisted.

Cold, on the other hand, is number 3 in damage types . It can also be slotted with slow damage procs, not amazing, granted, but useful over time.

To some degree, I see where you're coming from: what I'm saying is that this isn't something unique to Ice Control. You might also like to look at @Sir Myshkin's post on Controller procs in general, and Ice Control's relative lack of opportunities for procs in its power selections.

Quote

Low Capacity

• Ice
  • Only five proc-pacting attacks in this set, the only thing that can be said is that the few that can be maximized, should, and it'll help scale up the sets performance. What's interesting is that this sets lack of proc-dealing capacity is turning it into the least-damaging set because it lacks opportunities. It may thematically look cool, but Ice needs a generalist face lift for one or two abilities because a proc-world makes this set suffer.

On 11/29/2020 at 2:41 AM, xl8 said:

Comparisons between slick and bonfire have only come about because of the KB to KD proc. Perhaps allowing some set enhancements in slick would be a fair buff. At present it can't accept any--which just goes to show how powerful the devs perceived its KD capability.

Something to keep in mind here: Earthquake can already slot IOs - my suggestion merely levels the playing field for Ice Slick.

On 11/29/2020 at 2:41 AM, xl8 said:

I'd tweak shiver to compensate--90 degree ranged facing cone, 100% slow, -rch, minor damage, open to TAoE enhs.

What is Shiver compensating for, out of curiosity?

 

And on another note, have any thoughts on the suggestions I put forth for Shiver in the original post?

[Riverdusk]

On 11/18/2020 at 2:54 AM, Blackfeather said:

Out of curiosity, how much -Recharge does it take to floor an Archvillain, come to think of it? I think it was something like -500%? Ice Control on a Controller at the moment has, let's see...

• Chillblain = -37.5%
• Block of Ice = -37.5%
• Frostbite = -37.5%
• Arctic Air = -81.25%
• Shiver = -81.25%
• Glacier = -62.5%
• Jack Frost (Chilling Embrace) = Unknown?

I wouldn't mind having some additional -Recharge to play with, especially given that Ice Control's schtick is handling longer, drawn out fights. Which power do you think would be the best fit for it? Otherwise, I'm thinking of making each power have a portion of their -Movement/-Recharge unresistable, maybe to the tune of ~10-20% or so?

That does sound odd, especially given that Seeds of Confusion works with Domination, and can be easily permanently kept up. It sounds like an oversight that should be fixed. I wouldn't even be opposed to Domination working directly on it (i.e. double Magnitude, double duration). Combined with those proposed changes to Shiver, there'd be more than enough reasons for a Dominator to pick this over a Controller, with the trade-off being primarily the amount of -Recharge/-Movement they both deal...oh.

 

Hmm. Going back to that previous point, how much should a Dominator be able to debuff -Recharge/-Movement compared to a Controller? Having the same portion of Ice Control be unresistable does mean that there may be a bit less reason to go Controller for the soft control than Dominator, but not sure about the numbers there.

Oh! Which powers in Ice Control were you thinking could benefit from making use of a mechanic like this, out of curiosity?

Just now reading over this thread as I recently started a new ice/psi dom (and having fun).  Always loved the feel and look of ice control, even with its problems.  Had an ice/storm controller on live long long ago.

 

Just wanted to correct your numbers here as you seem to be listing the -movement speed values, not the -recharge values that are sometimes, but not always, the same.  I also added in Jack Frost's.  All numbers are from in-game under power info.  Also these are controller numbers, I added dom numbers in parentheses.  Jack is the same since he is a direct copy for both sets.  You are right -500 recharge would be needed to floor a level 50 +0 AV (who has an 85% resistance) to the -recharge cap of 75%.  Of course that increases even more due to the purple patch if you are fighting AVs +1 to +4 in level to you.   So, more like closer to around -1000% if you want to get close to flooring a lvl 54 AV.

 

• Chillblain = -25% (-20% dom)
• Block of Ice = -37.5% (-30%)
• Frostbite = -25%  (-20%)
• Arctic Air = -62.5% (-50%)
• Shiver = -81.25% (-65%)
• Glacier = -62.5%  (-50%)
• Jack Frost (Chilling Embrace) = -50%

Definitely like a lot of the ideas here.  I would have been happy just making flash freeze a pulsing sleep patch like electric's, but your idea for it is very creative and cool. 

Some unresistable -recharge would be a great addition. 

Some minor added AoE damage to Jack I think is the only thing he's missing, I'd just give his chilling embrace some damage just like dom's version in ice assault got. 

Yes, arctic air should get a boost somehow for doms.  

I like your shiver idea as well.  Right now it is an automatic skip for me and it definitely needs something to make it tempting.  

 

[Blackfeather]

On 11/29/2020 at 8:13 AM, oedipus_tex said:

In previous posts you compared Shiver to relatively short range attacks. But paradoxically, the larger a cone is the better it is to use from further back in order to maximize the blast area. Dominators have lots of medium range cone attacks in their Assault sets but don't step backward to use them out of AA. But with a modified Shiver they would.

To clarify, I compared Shiver to melee cone attacks to make a point about exactly how wide Shiver is: it's basically the biggest cone in the game.

 

The thing about "maximising blast area" is that it has diminishing returns. So long as one's cone hits all or most of the desired enemies, it doesn't matter what distance one fires it at. And it's because Shiver has a 130 degree wide arc that one can achieve this at basically any distance.

 

Basically, there's no need to step back to use a cone power if it's wide and long enough to hit all the desired enemies anyway, which Shiver absolutely is.

On 11/29/2020 at 8:13 AM, oedipus_tex said:

The reason you can ignore this right now is you can more or less get the effects of Shiver from other powers. Hopping back and forth to fire a power on a 30 sec recharge (which works out to a ~7 sec recharge on a perma dom build) would change the sets meta too drastically and make me want to avoid it. The way to avoid this is to make the effects somewhat duplicative of AA or else make the main mezz effect the main target only.

The set already has a ranged spherical alpha breaker in Flash Freeze if Ice Control needs a mezz breaker/damage power.

Building on those previous statements, the proposed changes I've made to Shiver wouldn't encourage players to move away from groups of enemies like you're suggesting for a few reasons:

• The chance to Hold is designed not for continual lockdown, but at a start of a fight (i.e. before they actually dive into the fray)
• There is little incentive to use Shiver by backing away from enemies while they're inside Arctic Air
  • Enemies remain confused only while inside Arctic Air
  • Shiver's arc is wide and long enough to hit the desired targets even up close
  • The control from Shiver is negligible and short compared to Arctic Air

I also see Flash Freeze as coming very late into Ice Control's arsenal, and similar to how you find Shiver to be fairly skippable, I personally avoid AoE Sleeps in general, including Flash Freeze. A modified Shiver along the lines of my proposal provides options for breaking alpha strikes either way (albeit less reliably than Flash Freeze, but that's done on purpose).

[xl8]

12 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

What would you think of the power disregarding them

I think all sets should have a rule governing them and that if one outperforms another then that's just the way it is. I am totally against leveling the field. That is to say, if you play well with a weak power, experienced players will see it and that is it' sown reward. Conversely, if you aren't very competent, you'll role a fire blaster and feel comfortable.

 

12 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

Something to keep in mind here: Earthquake can already slot IOs - my suggestion merely levels the playing field for Ice Slick.

Correct. And it's an "earthquake", it should be more devastating. Again, leveling the field makes the game less fun to play. Variety, spice, all that.

 

12 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

What is Shiver compensating for, out of curiosity?

For the failings in the set's other powers.

 

On 11/11/2020 at 7:23 AM, Blackfeather said:

 Shiver: Ranged (Cone), Foe -Recharge, -SPD, Foe Hold, Minor DMG(Cold)

• 50% chance to Hold (Mag 2)

• Deals minor Cold damage

• Can now be slotted with Hold and Targeted AoE enhancements

I'd rather it didn't hold. So KD, slow, placate... any of these. On that note, i also think Glacier rch time should be drastically cut down, less than half current time.

 

 

[UltraAlt]

I don't think the Ice controller has had any changes since at least over a year before the Sunset (and I think quite longer than that).

I had at least 2 ice controller 50's back then.

 

I see no problem with the set.

I am a team player. Controllers, in general, are not solo-play characters but are meant to augment a team.

In saying this, SLOW powers are extremely powerful in conjunction with damage dealing teammates.

 

Add in confusion, knockdown, and debuffs ... I mean wow.

The set kicks butt when you are on a team.

 

City of Heroes is designed to be team game.

Buffing the set for solo play causes increase team benefit for each additional team member. So increasing something for solo and them multiply it by 7 and see if it still make sense. The controller is for controlling the enemy and this set already excels at that

[Galaxy Brain]

6 hours ago, xl8 said:

On that note, i also think Glacier rch time should be drastically cut down, less than half current time.

Thats just the way it is, utilizing it as it is should be it's own reward 😉

 

On a more serious note, I agree that not everything should be 1:1 equal, but putting everything at least in the same field of play is a very healthy goal. As it stands, Ice Control has multiple aspects that keep it out of the same field as other control sets, much like how Assault Rifle or Kinetic Melee have multiple issues that bring them down compared to other attack sets. If its just one dud power that you can work with, by all means work with it. But when it comes to multiple powers and aspects of the set it can become a chore.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[xl8]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Thats just the way it is, utilizing it as it is should be it's own reward 😉

 

On a more serious note, I agree that not everything should be 1:1 equal, but putting everything at least in the same field of play is a very healthy goal. As it stands, Ice Control has multiple aspects that keep it out of the same field as other control sets, much like how Assault Rifle or Kinetic Melee have multiple issues that bring them down compared to other attack sets. If its just one dud power that you can work with, by all means work with it. But when it comes to multiple powers and aspects of the set it can become a chore.

"Utilizing it as it is should be it's own reward" vs "putting everything at least in the same field of play is a very healthy goal"...

 

I think making glacier much stronger than other sets AoE hold would address some imbalance. It's good to choose a set based on a unique merit.

 

I understand people's issues with AR and KM, and yes they could use a tweak, but they still have multiple strengths and can be used very effectively.

I've suggested ways of making these unique without making them OP, including non root powers in AR and a speed boosting mechanism in KM.

 

The second part of your statement, "putting everything at least in the same field of play is a very healthy goal", I completely disagree with for the reasons I stated above. And do you know what? I'm sure we can agree to differ. That's allowed.

[Riverdusk]

6 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

I don't think the Ice controller has had any changes since at least over a year before the Sunset (and I think quite longer than that).

I had at least 2 ice controller 50's back then.

 

I see no problem with the set.

I am a team player. Controllers, in general, are not solo-play characters but are meant to augment a team.

In saying this, SLOW powers are extremely powerful in conjunction with damage dealing teammates.

 

Add in confusion, knockdown, and debuffs ... I mean wow.

The set kicks butt when you are on a team.

 

City of Heroes is designed to be team game.

Buffing the set for solo play causes increase team benefit for each additional team member. So increasing something for solo and them multiply it by 7 and see if it still make sense. The controller is for controlling the enemy and this set already excels at that

Except slows only augment teams that themselves are slow moving.   Something that is much more rare now a days than they used to be.  Slows are amazing, but take time to become amazing, more so than other debuffs.  A tohit debuff for example can be applied and instantly can be powerful, not so with a slow.  Slows actually aren't extremely powerful in conjunction with a team with a lot of damage dealers on them because the slows never have a chance to take effect before everything is dead.  On a team like that slows are completely worthless. 

 

As to buffing it to solo vs. team,  I think the most important improvement the set needs is to flash freeze...to make it more useful in a team.  Old style one and done click sleeps are notoriously rarely useful in teams.  

 

On another note, something I haven't seen mentioned, another big difference between earthquake and ice slick isn't just the slotting, it is that EQ has a -10% tohit debuff.  That helps it be much more safely used on an alpha strike to help avoid some of the pot shots mobs fire off before they might fall down.  So, just another way earth control has another safer way to help control alpha strikes compared to ice (along with stalagmites of course).

Edited December 1, 2020 by Riverdusk

[Galaxy Brain]

56 minutes ago, xl8 said:

"Utilizing it as it is should be it's own reward" vs "putting everything at least in the same field of play is a very healthy goal"...

 

I think making glacier much stronger than other sets AoE hold would address some imbalance. It's good to choose a set based on a unique merit.

 

I understand people's issues with AR and KM, and yes they could use a tweak, but they still have multiple strengths and can be used very effectively.

I've suggested ways of making these unique without making them OP, including non root powers in AR and a speed boosting mechanism in KM.

 

The second part of your statement, "putting everything at least in the same field of play is a very healthy goal", I completely disagree with for the reasons I stated above. And do you know what? I'm sure we can agree to differ. That's allowed.

Making Ice have the best AoE hold would be very thematic, whichever route that takes!

 

As for the other examples though, I think you and I actually agree though with your suggestions. To take another ice set into consideration, I feel Ice Melee is a perfect example of a great set that is on the same field as its peers, but just playing a different position. It has really nice perks, and trades some raw output for great safety but still has the might to tackle encounters efficiently.  That would be the same as speeding up AR and KM, allowing them to stay unique but also just do what they do better. 

 

A set doesn't have to become OP in order to be competitive, it just has to be allowed to fill its niche effectively. 

[UltraAlt]

8 hours ago, Riverdusk said:

Except slows only augment teams that themselves are slow moving.   Something that is much more rare now a days than they used to be.  Slows are amazing, but take time to become amazing, more so than other debuffs.  A tohit debuff for example can be applied and instantly can be powerful, not so with a slow.  Slows actually aren't extremely powerful in conjunction with a team with a lot of damage dealers on them because the slows never have a chance to take effect before everything is dead.  On a team like that slows are completely worthless. 

 

As to buffing it to solo vs. team,  I think the most important improvement the set needs is to flash freeze...to make it more useful in a team.  Old style one and done click sleeps are notoriously rarely useful in teams.  

I don't run on teams that run up and instantly destroy every mob so that slows are entirely useless. That kind of team would make any controller or defender useless.

 

Other sets have sleeps. The sleeps are pretty much for when you are running solo or on a team that doesn't use  AoEs. 

 

Ran my Ice/storm Controller today teamed up with a with a Storm/Water defender.

level 42 versus level 49 mob of Snow creatures. We couldn't take them down, but they couldn't take us down either.

Hurricaned an elite boss to the ceiling in a Baby New Year mission and kept him pinned and slowed there until he was defeated.

Hulk smash? No.

Icy goodness. Oh, yeah!

 

Ice is nice!

[Blackfeather]

On 11/29/2020 at 9:59 AM, Darkneblade said:

When I think of Ice. We should also consider what it means have a frostbite. So enemy gets puts to sleep and they wake up from damage. But they will have brittle status for shortwhile. So if ice formations is little OP. Consider aftereffects of sleep on ice. Either brittle makes your next attack automatically applies containment damage regardless of enemy immobilized or not. Or give enemy -Res (all) for 10 seconds. Enough to worthwhile but not enough to become overpowered.

I actually think Flash Freeze's changes are fairly reasonable myself - while Sleep powers do have their place, they're kind of conditional, and very easily broken out of. Adding in those ice formation summons was meant to help with that: occupy enemies for a little while even if they prematurely wake up. It even has the added bonus of causing enemies to waste a few of their attacks, which synergises well with Ice Control's focus on -Recharge as a form of soft control.

 

Would be interested in @xl8's thoughts on the quoted suggestion though! While I mightn't think my proposed changes are overpowered, I'd like to see their thoughts on alternative proposals.

[oedipus_tex]

21 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

The thing about "maximising blast area" is that it has diminishing returns. So long as one's cone hits all or most of the desired enemies, it doesn't matter what distance one fires it at. And it's because Shiver has a 130 degree wide arc that one can achieve this at basically any distance.

 

Basically, there's no need to step back to use a cone power if it's wide and long enough to hit all the desired enemies anyway, which Shiver absolutely is.

 

 

I don't think we're going to agree on this, which is fine. I've used this power a lot and found it unwieldly. I have dropped it every time I've taken it on something like 10 different Ice Control characters who have hit 50 on Homecoming and live.

 

130 degrees is wide but not that wide. The immediate issue is you don't have a lot of control over the center point. It has to be centered on an enemy. Dominators in particular spend much of their time at point blank range, where moving a little to the left or right swings the cone in a different trajectory. The logistics of the power lead to a lot of awkwardness. I can count many deaths where the huge size of the cone aggroed the wrong group (while still missing most of the nearby enemies) when the power fired in a direction I didn't originally intend or a rogue +Range buff increased the size of it beyond reason.

 

There a handful of powers that are cones that don't require a target that I could see making this power less frustrating. One of the powers in Martial Assault for example.

 

But overall I'd rather it was either a spherical power or less left superflous to the set to not disrupt the flow. 

Edited December 2, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[xl8]

3 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

On 11/28/2020 at 5:59 PM, Darkneblade said:

When I think of Ice. We should also consider what it means have a frostbite. So enemy gets puts to sleep and they wake up from damage. But they will have brittle status for shortwhile. So if ice formations is little OP. Consider aftereffects of sleep on ice. Either brittle makes your next attack automatically applies containment damage regardless of enemy immobilized or not. Or give enemy -Res (all) for 10 seconds. Enough to worthwhile but not enough to become overpowered.

Would be interested in @xl8's thoughts on the quoted suggestion though! While I mightn't think my proposed changes are overpowered, I'd like to see their thoughts on alternative proposals.

I applaud any suggestions that are within the realm of possibility, not difficult to implement, and don't go too far in making a set OP. That said, I think all we have here is a word "frostbite", another word "brittle" and then a maybe damage, maybe -res half idea. I do like the idea of extended containment but it goes against the rules of the archetype, so I wouldn't expect to see it implemented. Too much of a cheat.

So if we're talking theme based mechanics, it must, like all other them sets, run throughout the set--combo builder in street, blood frenzy in savage, rad's contaminated...

For ice, and I see a nice opportunity for proliferation here, we can talk about "frostbite" and what it could/should do. What's the association? Damage and immobility stand out the most.

Which brings me back to your original suggestion; without the taunt aspect, it works.

I'd specifically like to see the immob side of this frostbite mechanic pushed. Say, 5 second stackable immob per application. What about the power "frostbite"? Well either we say goodbye, because Ice has a new immob mechanic running through 3 or 4 of its powers, and we get a new power (my preference but also the must difficult to implement), or... We keep frostbite as is, perhaps gathering some dust, and let ice have this perma frozen/immob aspect.
Possible alternatives to frostbite the power...

You could introduce a rain (snow) with -perception and -def (caught off guard) and/or -to hit. Not bad, but not very unique either. Same goes for a stalagmite clone in icicle form.

You could introduce a minor pet, as dark has haunt to umbra beast, ice could have ice sprites to Jack Frost. Not unique, but definitely fun.

You could introduce a snowball power that could work in tandem with existing powers, a control boost if you will.

The only thing is, we're reliant on volunteers and changing numbers is a lot easier than creating animations.

 

[WindDemon21]

4 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

130 degrees is wide but not that wide. The immediate issue is you don't have a lot of control over the center point. It has to be centered on an enemy. Dominators in particular spend much of their time at point blank range, where moving a little to the left or right swings the cone in a different trajectory. The logistics of the power lead to a lot of awkwardness. I can count many deaths where the huge size of the cone aggroed the wrong group (while still missing most of the nearby enemies) when the power fired in a direction I didn't originally intend or a rogue +Range buff increased the size of it beyond reason.

Which is where I again reference my idea of making it a non stackable taoe AND pbaoe with a generous radius.