Squishies Epic Armors grant 3 Mag Protection?

[arthurh35353]

Is there any real downside to Blasters/Defenders/Corruptors/Controllers/Dominators (and potentially Kheldians) getting a very minor base 3 Mag protection versus Holds/stuns in their Smash/Lethal Armor toggle?

 

3-4 mag protection is not enough to allow them to solo +4/x8  mobs, but should allow them to solo better and more evenly than having to worry about getting mez-locked by 2 lieutenants? For most "squishies" they would be getting a minor bit of protection when mezzing starts to become very common closer to the end game.

 

I also think it would help with 'real DPS' too, as when you get mezzed, your DPS drops to zero.

[Hyperstrike]

And we should give Melee characters epic, blaster level damage on their ranged attacks.
And Domination-like boosts on any control powers.

And, you know what?
Scrap all the ATs and just create a generic "Hero" that can do it all and be all-powerful and take no damage."

I'll even spring for the name!  Physical God.

Sorry if it comes off snide (it is).

If you want to play a Tank/Brute/Scrapper/Sentinel, play a Tank/Brute/Scrapper/Sentinel.

Don't insist that other ATs be slowly converted to Tank/Brute/Scrapper/Sentinel run-alikes.

 

And carry break frees.

It's called "learning how to play your character".

And THIS is coming from a guy who's lazy and defaults to attempting to Tank on EVERYTHING!

[Doomguide2005]

They've got a name lined up already ... Incarnates.  At least that's what the Oroborous mission seemed to imply to me, the one where you could probably round all the AV's up and defeat them all simultaneously.  Anyone ever try that on a character?

[Galaxy Brain]

@Hyperstrike now hold on, mag 3 is basically nothing compared to the least powerful Melee-level Mez Armor (mag 8 iirc on the low end). Getting essentially "phew, a single minion stun wont pin me down" level of protection at lvl 35+ I do not see as game breaking.

Edited November 21, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[BadMinotaur]

My big question is this: would this change make the Clarion Destiny Incarnate power less "necessary" for solo squishy builds? If so, I'd support this change -- I'm always about letting players have more options and not feel like they have to take a specific power. (of course, they'd still feel like they have to take a shield, but at least there are more options available for that)

[Greycat]

While I think @Hyperstrike 's reply goes well into the range of "too far," I don't think I'd agree with this idea, honestly.

 

Blasters have a *bit* of pseudo-protection in being able to use their T1 and T2 blasts, plus the T1 from the secondary (and don't forget things like voltaic sentinel,) so they're not completely helpless. Doms obviously have domination. Khelds have a few options open to them. Depending on the Defender, Corrupter or Controller, they may already *have* mez protection plus defense (or resistance.) Even the ones that don't play merry havoc with foes - or can still boost their own survivability. Most controllers already have a pet doing both offense and defense, as well (and Mind, well, it should be non-agro-generating-confusing its biggest threats, or putting them to sleep while shutting things down.)

 

This is ignoring the "with IOs, people can build up quite a lot of defense as it is," and that mez resistance (shortening the duration) seems to always work its way in there somewhere. And that several pools seem to have mez protection, as I'm recalling. (Leaping - Acrobatics gives minor Hold protection (1pt,) Sorcery has ... one whose name I'm forgetting, and I want to say there's another.)

[arthurh35353]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

@Hyperstrike now hold on, mag 3 is basically nothing compared to the least powerful Melee-level Mez Armor (mag 8 iirc on the low end). Getting essentially "phew, a single minion stun wont pin me down" level of protection at lvl 35+ I do not see as game breaking.

That was actually my thought. I did consider the idea of you getting it earlier as an inherent toggle, but then I thought why not throw in 3 to 4 mag protection against just holds and stuns (not sleeps, fear, confuse, immob, KD/KB) on those hero/villain epic armors would be useful, but not game breaking.

 

I mean, almost all those armors are S/L focused with usually one extra type of resistance/defense. So them getting basic (and only basic) mezz protection against hold/stuns make sense.

  

34 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Blasters have a *bit* of pseudo-protection in being able to use their T1 and T2 blasts, plus the T1 from the secondary (and don't forget things like voltaic sentinel,) so they're not completely helpless. Doms obviously have domination. Khelds have a few options open to them. Depending on the Defender, Corrupter or Controller, they may already *have* mez protection plus defense (or resistance.) Even the ones that don't play merry havoc with foes - or can still boost their own survivability. Most controllers already have a pet doing both offense and defense, as well (and Mind, well, it should be non-agro-generating-confusing its biggest threats, or putting them to sleep while shutting things down.)

A Blaster may not even have one of those first two blast powers (I usually try to cut the weaker attack out, because I have more than enough attacks later). And I'll be truthful, those minor attacks while held are just a bandage over the issue that any mezzing at all can kill the squishie dead. They aren't likely to kill a boss level foe if they are the ones mezzing you.

 

Take my oldest character, the Dark/Dark Defender. The +Def from Shadow fall is nice to help mitigate damage and dropping Darkest Night on a foe drops their To-Hit even more, but Darkest Night gets instantly detoggled from any mez hit. So on paper, it sounds like a good defense, but in actuality, you usually have to depend on proactively mezzing them or hoping they don't get you mez-locked. And proactively mezzing doesn't help against ambushes or patrols at all and then you die, to what would be a minor bit of excitement.

Nor does it help with maintaining your weaker DPS for most squishies. Getting mezzed drops your DPS rate hard, especially if you have to spam several non-damaging mezz abilities to protect against mezzing attacks from your foes.

I would bet if you factored in DPS sinks/hits that you would find that most squishies are doing far less damage solo than their DPS scale suggests.

Edited November 21, 2020 by arthurh35353
Added reply and then KD/KB mention, comment on DPS levels.

[Monos King]

I'm not for this idea either. The squishies already have their own ranges of mez prevention, and for some of them that's obliterating the enemy that mezes before they get to breath or making the first mez before them. Their not even supposed to have guaranteed access to mez protection itself (which including it in the armors is) because of their existing strategies for dealing with it, and you can already get break frees, amplifiers, or rune of protection. 

 

There's two ways I could see this being ok maybe. Adding it to the pseudo t9s or adding it to a click mez protection like with Indomitable Will in how controllers/defenders get it (iirc). For the latter, that's a precedent that's been set already so I think it would work.

[arthurh35353]

5 minutes ago, Monos King said:

I'm not for this idea either. The squishies already have their own ranges of mez prevention, and for some of them that's obliterating the enemy that mezes before they get to breath or making the first mez before them. Their not even supposed to have guaranteed access to mez protection itself (which including it in the armors is) because of their existing strategies for dealing with it, and you can already get break frees, amplifiers, or rune of protection. 

Yet you didn't explain why is it bad? Is it because they should take a DPS hit using their active mezz attacks? So their real DPS is supposed to be lower than just their attacks? I've never heard that mentioned before.

 

Break frees are not 'fix' or strategy, unless you are saying that all squishies are supposed to just be stocking up on them only (their drop rate is actually on the low side). I'm not even sure what you mean by amplifiers and Rune of Protection isn't thematic for all characters, which is a big problem in of itself.

 

Note that none of us are saying that squishies should be immune to mezzing, just that they shouldn't be relatively crippled by the introduction of multiple mezzing later on. Mag 3 is very minor protection

[Monos King]

1 minute ago, arthurh35353 said:

I'm not even sure what you mean by amplifiers and Rune of Protection isn't thematic for all characters, which is a big problem in of itself.

You should probably look into amplifiers. You have a point about Rune of Protection though.

 

Its not that it's bad, it's just not necessary because of the options available. As for your dps argument the short answer is yes. Things like debuffs and mez exist to get in the way of your progress, impeding your dps is one of many things that they will do. There are different ways of addressing those obstacles, and squishies just already have access to many (that have been listed earlier) to the extent I don't see much reason to make it easier. Blasters, which have the least means of mitigation and mez protection, can literally one or two shot the lieutenants who may mez and can usually KB or immobilize bosses before moving into the kill or whittling them down from a distance. I think it's fine as is.

[arthurh35353]

So, basically you are fine with most squishies having a slower and more painful leveling experience because their DPS is supposed to be taking a hit using non-damaging mezzing.

 

That goes back to the tag I put on here first. Balance Vs. Fun. You haven't actually stated a balance issue and if it was really about the challenge, you would be advocating that people with Mez protection should just turn it off to play the harder way you believe in.

 

It's more of you don't think its broken, so it shouldn't be changed even though other people have noted their issues with it.

[Monos King]

1 minute ago, arthurh35353 said:

You haven't actually stated a balance issue and if it was really about the challenge, you would be advocating that people with Mez protection should just turn it off to play the harder way you believe in.

I would not, I am not an advocate of self imposed limitation. If you followed my posts you would know I endorse a good deal of buffs, but don't think capping yourself without reward does anything to improve game experience. I haven't made any brazen assertions about your intentions, so I would appreciate if you didn't go so far as to make any about mine.

3 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

So, basically you are fine with most squishies having a slower and more painful leveling experience because their DPS is supposed to be taking a hit using non-damaging mezzing.

 

Including mez protection in epic armors doesn't do too much to impact the leveling experience because of the varying high levels in which they might receive the armor. If I recall correctly, the earliest possible would be 35. I also highly doubt mez tanking dps is as big a concern as you are making it out to be. Dying definitely does. But this dps centric argument is totally new to me, and I main squishies. Defenders will be slower always because of the AT, and I honestly don't even see where your coming from with blasters, who by 32 are certified death machines. It isn't fun to be stuck in mez, but that is a very real aspect of the ATs you choose to play. It comes with trade-offs and benefits. As I said, there are means to address it. 

 

Perhaps you could discuss why those means are inadequate from your perspective.

[arthurh35353]

1 minute ago, Monos King said:

Perhaps you could discuss why those means are inadequate from your perspective.

I'm pretty sure we already did with describing being mezzed by a lone lieutenant and dying or having our DPS drop dramatically and having to heal after each group to not be fun or meaningful, but you don't seem to consider that 'unfun' so our opinion is not relevant.

[Apparition]

If you want mez protection, use the Defense Amplifier.  It's temporary and expensive, but it's supposed to be.  It's an INF sink, and your suggestion would lead to INF inflation.

[BadMinotaur]

While I generally agree with the suggestion in the OP, I do want to chime in and say that "target dummy DPS" is always going to be higher than actual DPS; in other MMOs I've played, it's the role of the DPS players to strive to bridge the gap between target dummy DPS and actual DPS as much as possible. In this way, it's a bit of a minigame -- you have to adjust your rotation and position to respond to changing circumstances. This is, to me, part of the fun challenge of playing DPS.

 

Things will always tank our DPS. Whether it's enemies dying before we can get off a killer BU+Blaze, or Illusionists phasing, there's many things that affect our DPS numbers negatively. As DPS, I feel the challenge presented to us then is to take those lumps and still come out as death machines, even if our actual DPS doesn't match the theoretical DPS.

[Monos King]

1 hour ago, arthurh35353 said:

I'm pretty sure we already did with describing being mezzed by a lone lieutenant and dying or having our DPS drop dramatically and having to heal after each group to not be fun or meaningful, but you don't seem to consider that 'unfun' so our opinion is not relevant.

You just described what you don't like about being mezzed and not why the existing means for avoiding being mezzed are not to your liking.

 

I'll also include a small example of balance issue with this suggestion, since you asked. You stated you don't want to have squishies becoming immune to mez. Well, if you factor in some other available mez protection/mitigation options to a blaster...

1. Defense Amplifier +4 Mez prots (all)
2. Blaster ATO stackable +3 Mez Prot (all)
3. Acrobatics +  hold prot
4. Blaster knockback not resistable by bosses
5. Blaster mez, stackable. Will affect bosses
6. Blaster damage, will shred bosses and everything else

And now you have a very much immune to mez blaster who murders everything. This is how it can already be without your proposal. Obviously not everyone is going to get acrobatics, but every other option is possible for any build, and that's just blasters. This is why I don't think it is necessary. There is, even with the above, some degree of strategy that is still preserved (amplifiers are honestly OP), and it is sufficient for mitigating the leveling pains better than adding it to epic armors. With it in epics, it's too much.

 

Edited November 21, 2020 by Monos King

[Hyperstrike]

1 hour ago, Greycat said:

While I think @Hyperstrike 's reply goes well into the range of "too far,"

There is no "overkill".
There is only "kill" with ever-greater confidence levels.

[Hyperstrike]

1 hour ago, arthurh35353 said:

Balance Vs. Fun.

"Fun" is an entirely subjective metric. So subjective that calling it a "metric" is actually a misnomer.

And yes, I'm fine with squishies having a slower leveling experience.

The game already gives multiple avenues to fast leveling.

[arthurh35353]

53 minutes ago, Monos King said:

Survival Amplifier +4 Mez prots (all)

At the cost of 15 million INF and no availability (none for sale and only a few people are attempting to bid), this is basically 'not really an option'. It also doesn't state it grants Mezz Protection, just a boosting regeneration and max hit points. This being thrown in seems like 'there's a fix, really, ignore that it doesn't actually fix the problem!'

 

I'm not 100% sure, but it would be a nice deal if all the squishies ATO's came with +3 Mag protection. I was not actually aware of that. I would actually state that we should normalize it. If Blasters have the option for +hold protection in a set, so should the other squishies.

And bleargh is that a wonky mechanic. Short mezz protection from an attack? I mean, it's better than nothing, but you basically want to throw that in your lower level attack so you can hopefully trigger it. 

 

Unless you can explain a reason for why it would be unbalanced for a Defender with 60% base damage for ranged attacks to have the same possible mezz protection as a Blaster.

  

8 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

"Fun" is an entirely subjective metric. So subjective that calling it a "metric" is actually a misnomer.

And yes, I'm fine with squishies having a slower leveling experience.

The game already gives multiple avenues to fast leveling.

Does it actively remove something from you that you could forgo? Does it take away from the tanks/brutes keeping most of the attacks on them?

What does it hurt other ATs if you have minor mezz protection against Holds/Stuns?

I haven't gotten a clear answer on that other than 'don't you dare change my harder mode play'.

Edited November 21, 2020 by arthurh35353
Added note on ATO.

[Monos King]

19 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

Unless you can explain a reason for why it would be unbalanced for a Defender with 60% base damage for range to have the same possible mezz protection as a Blaster.

No objections here. Defenders getting a mez ATO shouldn't be an issue even though they can already get indomitable will. People were even just talking about possible ideas for a 3rd set of ATOs (max of up to 2 ATO sets per character) this could be a possibility for one if people really wanted it. It still isn't necessary, though.

 

Edit: You definitely need to do research into amplifiers though. Their cost scales to level and they have various benefits.

Edited November 21, 2020 by Monos King

[Hyperstrike]

13 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

At the cost of 15 million INF and no availability

What're you talking about?

P2W VENDOR!

 

Note: This screenie was taken on an L26 character.

Edited November 21, 2020 by Hyperstrike

[arthurh35353]

6 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

What're you talking about?

P2W VENDOR!

 

That's reasonable in cost. I didn't look at the P2W vendor because I looked in the Auction House first. It should probably be removed from the auction house, actually. It sounds like it was something that you could buy there but was moved to P2W. (And WTH? The P2W vendor in Pocket D lists those at 2 million a pop). Is that a non-Homecoming server?

 

 

But I'll note that it still doesn't grant any mezz protection, even from that description. Which was stated it did. At less than a million a pop, if it granted mezz protection people would be paying for 8 hours of protection on squishies in a heartbeat.

Edited November 21, 2020 by arthurh35353

[Hyperstrike]

14 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

Does it actively remove something from you that you could forgo?

You're conflating "takes nothing from you" with "a good idea".

And if I wanted to be obtuse, I COULD say "YES" the idea takes something from me.
It takes away my ability to play my lowbie blast-ish characters the way they're supposed to be played.
I.E. NOT AS TANKS.

[Monos King]

1 minute ago, arthurh35353 said:

Which was stated it did. At less than a million a pop, if it granted mezz protection people would be paying for 8 hours of protection on squishies in a heartbeat.

 

7 minutes ago, Monos King said:

Edit: You definitely need to do research into amplifiers though.

Do this for your sake!!

[Hyperstrike]

2 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

That's reasonable in cost. I didn't look at the P2W vendor because I looked in the Auction House first. It should probably be removed from the auction house, actually. It sounds like it was something that you could buy there but was moved to P2W.

 

But I'll note that it still doesn't grant any mezz protection, even from that description. Which was stated it did. At less than a million a pop, if it granted mezz protection people would be paying for 8 hours of protection on squishies in a heartbeat.

At one point, Amps were purchasable "doses" that could be activated ad-hoc.
A choice was made to simplify it to a directly applying buff.

Unsure of the full story behind why or what it might have "fixed".