Crazy Controllers - 2021 Edition

[Olly]

1 hour ago, Coyote said:

 

Yeah, I'm kinda agreeing with this... Cold has much better End management, so that may be a thing, but it has very little self-defense ability other than -Recharge (and -Damage for a single opponent). Thermal has a self-heal to top up between fights. Both have to depend on IO set bonuses for Defense to solo well, but that works well backed up by heals. My main problem with Thermal is the -Res power is so much weaker than Cold's and you don't get +Recovery, so it's weaker on damage, not survivability.

 

It's definitely a "you must spend a zillion influence and be vet level 100" type of play. And I doubt ill/therm will out damage ill/cold. You can get around the end issues with incarnates though, so there's that. 

 

My point with ill/therm was to find another AT that could at least have the potential to MoKhan. It came down to a very short list of AT's with -regen, and all of them were controllers and defenders. /Dark also looked viable, but its -regen isn't as powerful; and /Rad seems even worse with no +dmg and less -res than therm.  It would be interesting to see if some Cold/* or Therm/* defender would have a chance. Beam Sonic probably has the best chance, imo.

Edited February 4, 2021 by Olly
browsed mids more

[Frosticus]

49 minutes ago, Olly said:

 

It's definitely a "you must spend a zillion influence and be vet level 100" type of play. And I doubt ill/therm will out damage ill/cold. You can get around the end issues with incarnates though, so there's that. 

 

My point with ill/therm was to find another AT that could at least have the potential to MoKhan. It came down to a very short list of AT's with -regen, and all of them were controllers and defenders. /Dark also looked viable, but its -regen isn't as powerful; and /Rad seems even worse with no +dmg and less -res than therm.  It would be interesting to see if some Cold/* or Therm/* defender would have a chance. Beam Sonic probably has the best chance, imo.

I think there might be some confusion or misunderstanding as not everyone is talking about the same thing.

 

I think many characters in the game could solo MoKhan. That's because MO doesn't block inspirations, or lore pets. Some temp powers also aren't counted against MO.

 

The only reason the MoKhan I did with ill/cold is noteworthy is because it was specifically without inspirations, lore, amps or any temps. Lots of builds can make headway until he starts cycling unstoppable  and dull pain. You can see in the screens I attached what his unstoppable does to damage output (it might be 99% resistance?) The list of builds that can succeed under those conditions is very short. I don't have  thermal on that list myself, but that isn't to say it can't be done. 

[Coyote]

1 hour ago, Olly said:

My point with ill/therm was to find another AT that could at least have the potential to MoKhan. It came down to a very short list of AT's with -regen, and all of them were controllers and defenders.

 

What about a Robots MM? The Assault Bot can put out -1000 Regen on a "permanent" basis (other than when it misses with Dual Plasma Blast), so the real issue would seem to keep the Bots from folding to AoE slams. But Tankerminding combined with a Resist-based secondary (EA? Thermal?) may limit the one-shotting, and then AoE heals cover up the damage. I'm actually planning a 2nd build for my Bots/EA to try this, depending on how well he does with Siege (who, unfortunately, has a cycling Heal rather than just Regen, so I can't shut that down).

[BZRKR]

1 hour ago, Olly said:

Which is why I asked. Cold Dom is a completely diff AT and powerset; it doesn't even have -regen powers. So I wonder what the comparison is.

The HC wiki says Benumb has -Regen:

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Cold_Domination#Benumb

Does this match what's in game?

[Coyote]

3 minutes ago, BZRKR said:

The HC wiki says Benumb has -Regen:

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Cold_Domination#Benumb

Does this match what's in game?

 

Yeah, that's the power, -500% Regen for 30 seconds. Could it be a misunderstanding thinking that "Cold Dom" refers to an Ice Control Dominator?

[Frosticus]

1 hour ago, Coyote said:

 

What about a Robots MM? The Assault Bot can put out -1000 Regen on a "permanent" basis (other than when it misses with Dual Plasma Blast), so the real issue would seem to keep the Bots from folding to AoE slams. But Tankerminding combined with a Resist-based secondary (EA? Thermal?) may limit the one-shotting, and then AoE heals cover up the damage. I'm actually planning a 2nd build for my Bots/EA to try this, depending on how well he does with Siege (who, unfortunately, has a cycling Heal rather than just Regen, so I can't shut that down).

I say give it a whirl. 

 

Khans regen is far from the biggest hurdle to overcome in the fight though.

 

His fist of the heavens is a high mag stun that he spams the hell out of. I'm pretty sure it stuns me through rune of protection. Probably stun a build with no -special for about 15 seconds at least.

 

When he has  crashless unstoppable up he is essentially immune to all damage (except psi). My purple proc shows 1.18 damage and that is with about 100% -res on him.

 

You also have to outpace his dullpain cycle. I think that was about an 80k heal + hp/regen increase.

 

All while chewing through 225k hp (base hp)

[Olly]

1 hour ago, Coyote said:

 

Yeah, that's the power, -500% Regen for 30 seconds. Could it be a misunderstanding thinking that "Cold Dom" refers to an Ice Control Dominator?

 

Lord god... yeah I was thinking it was in reference to an Ice Control Dominator >.<   No wonder I was so confused....

[Olly]

2 hours ago, Frosticus said:

The only reason the MoKhan I did with ill/cold is noteworthy is because it was specifically without inspirations, lore, amps or any temps. Lots of builds can make headway until he starts cycling unstoppable  and dull pain.

The list of builds that can succeed under those conditions is very short. I don't have  thermal on that list myself, but that isn't to say it can't be done. 

Right. I forgot MO allows for insps. I'll have to add the extra constraints if I ever decide to run the "Frosti-Khan" aka the higher-constraint version.  Now I'm really curious: what other builds are on that short list??? 

[nihilii]

27 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

You also have to outpace his dullpain cycle. I think that was about an 80k heal + hp/regen increase.

I have seen people alluding to an AI trick to make him not use Dull Pain. Not sure what it is. Anecdotally, I've noticed whenever I stand in melee and attack nonstop, he is very unlikely to use Dull Pain. But if I stop attacking for a while, or if I move away, he tends to use DP right away. Perhaps the idea is to be in melee and to keep enough DoT on him the occasional fist of the heavens doesn't stop damage long enough he uses Dull Pain, or perhaps there's a more refined tactic to use there.

[Frosticus]

50 minutes ago, nihilii said:

I have seen people alluding to an AI trick to make him not use Dull Pain. Not sure what it is. Anecdotally, I've noticed whenever I stand in melee and attack nonstop, he is very unlikely to use Dull Pain. But if I stop attacking for a while, or if I move away, he tends to use DP right away. Perhaps the idea is to be in melee and to keep enough DoT on him the occasional fist of the heavens doesn't stop damage long enough he uses Dull Pain, or perhaps there's a more refined tactic to use there.

If you can manage it then that certainly eliminates a big hurdle in the encounter. 

I have no idea if that is what I did. Earlier when I described the encounter he used DP right as I powered up with assault hybrid and a fresh heatloss. Over those next 2 mins I erased the vast majority of the health he had gained. I was actually taken aback at how fast I chunked him down right after he healed. I was preparing for him to use it again at the end of the fight, but he never did. We can't see their power tray haha so I dunno if it simply hadn't recharged or I was lucky enough to interupt it. 

[Hjarki]

1 hour ago, Frosticus said:

You also have to outpace his dullpain cycle. I think that was about an 80k heal + hp/regen increase.

*cough* Trick Arrow *cough*

[Frosticus]

1 hour ago, Hjarki said:

*cough* Trick Arrow *cough*

As above, give it a whirl. Good opportunity to show off the TA buffs.

 

I'm not sure x/TA (ill/ta would be the best shot) could even get him to the point he'd need to use Dull Pain to show off the -heal debuff. (no insp/temps/lore/amps). 

99% of the fun of this encounter was solving for the challenges that he presents. The fight itself is awfully boring, but it only takes 20 min or so to get to him to try out ideas. 

 

Edit: I also think dullpain might be unresistable so it might be immune to -heal. But I'm not that familiar with the power. 

Edited February 4, 2021 by Frosticus

[Coyote]

2 hours ago, Frosticus said:

You also have to outpace his dullpain cycle. I think that was about an 80k heal + hp/regen increase.

 

The Regen increase wouldn't matter to Bots since they'll shut down Regen, but... 80k DP every six minutes is over 200 HP/s worth of healing that has to be overcome. Behind some high resists even aside from Unstoppable. I thought it was about 30k heal, and that seemed doable... 80k is probably out of reach. I remember draining Nosferatu before Incarnates... but at a lower level, he didn't have the top AV resistance to debuffs. I doubt that Khan can be drained by a /EA without another source of draining even with Musculature and Preemptive.

[oedipus_tex]

Mainly the reason I'd rate Thermal so high is the combination of Resistance, reliable heals, and a Benumb-like power (just the -damage and -regen tho) in Heat Exhaustion.

 

Heal used on players is so-so. But heal for Lore Pets is invaluable. Comboed with +Resist and -Damage it's just a great overall package. Plus the ability to reliably heal yourself is just a good baseline thing for a Controller to have. 

 

On a team, Thermal also has a hidden special something that I don't think another set has (tho I haven't looked super close). Thermal can make the team ward off run speed and -Recharge debuffs. Probably not that amazing on an 8 man team, pretty incredible on a 2 or 3 person one though.

 

Edited February 5, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Frosticus]

Lt. Sefu Tendaji (lvl 54)

This guy can be a handful. I think his resistances are pretty solid, but his main thing seems to be he uses forcebubble. It flops me all over the place. He can do a lot of damage and popped me for over 1k with some ranged force blast. All in all a little over 4 mins to defeat him.

 

Spoiler

 

Edited February 15, 2021 by Frosticus

[Frosticus]

Siege (lvl 54) BAF version

(I was unable to lock insp/temps as this was through AE, but I avoided using them as usual. No lore as always)

 

I'm still searching for an easy way to access to other big robot version of Siege that has the heal. This is the version you encounter in the BAF incarnate trial with the rings of death.

He is no joke, put me into the red 5 times throughout the fight and took nearly 15 min to defeat. His resistances are extremely high pushing 75% res to psi and 50% res to smashing, which are my main damage sources.

 

Spoiler

 

Edited February 15, 2021 by Frosticus

[nihilii]

4 hours ago, Frosticus said:

He is no joke, put me into the red 5 times throughout the fight and took nearly 15 min to defeat.

I was surprised to see that as well. We don't get a good feel for his sheer strength in the usual environment of a 12+ people overbuffed league, but this version of Siege smacks you with 1000+ damage hits on seemingly every attack. Even without the red rings of doom, surviving alone would prove challenging for most characters.

Edited February 15, 2021 by nihilii

[Coyote]

10 hours ago, Frosticus said:

Siege (lvl 54) BAF version

(I was unable to lock insp/temps as this was through AE

 

You can do Incarnate Trial missions through the AE? Or is this specific to the Siege BAF mission?

[Frosticus]

1 hour ago, Coyote said:

 

You can do Incarnate Trial missions through the AE? Or is this specific to the Siege BAF mission?

I wish. But no, it just so happens that the Siege robot you can use in AE is the one that is used in the BAF trial as opposed to the Warwalker one used in the Maria arc. They are quite difference in many ways as detailed here:

 

Quote

From @Aberrant

• Event_PraetorianInvasion_Siege - Used during old developer run Praetorian Invasion events, so currently unused.
• GenericVillains_P_Siege - This is the Siege used in BAF and that appears in Mission Architect. Why they categorised him and Nightstar under GenericVillains and not Praetorians is a mystery for the ages.
• Siege_Siege - The original Siege from Issue 1, encounterable in Maria Jenkins old arc via Flashback and in Mission Architect under Siege Androids
• Siege_Siege_New - New Siege found in the current Maria Jenkins mission Take Down the WarWorks, and unfortunately not available in Mission Architect.

So Siege Siege New which is fought in Maria Jenkins mission takes War Walkers powers from the WarWorks powersets, with Orbital attacks and Nano Reconstruction, whereas GVP Siege is more based on classic Siege Siege with Energy Blasts and Melee, along with Sequestration Field and the scripted resurrect in BAF but no heal.

 

[Steem]

Did you ever get round to making a guide for illu/cold/x or put a mids out?

[Without_Pause]

On 2/4/2021 at 10:51 AM, Coyote said:

 

Yeah, I'm kinda agreeing with this... Cold has much better End management, so that may be a thing, but it has very little self-defense ability other than -Recharge (and -Damage for a single opponent).

You mean besides Artic Fog giving 3.75% def to all?

[Without_Pause]

On 2/4/2021 at 8:38 PM, oedipus_tex said:

Mainly the reason I'd rate Thermal so high is the combination of Resistance, reliable heals, and a Benumb-like power (just the -damage and -regen tho) in Heat Exhaustion.

 

Heal used on players is so-so. But heal for Lore Pets is invaluable. Comboed with +Resist and -Damage it's just a great overall package. Plus the ability to reliably heal yourself is just a good baseline thing for a Controller to have. 

 

On a team, Thermal also has a hidden special something that I don't think another set has (tho I haven't looked super close). Thermal can make the team ward off run speed and -Recharge debuffs. Probably not that amazing on an 8 man team, pretty incredible on a 2 or 3 person one though.

 

Cold also does resistance to -recharge but at +60% with Arctic Fog.

[ninja surprise]

@Frosticus Have you solo'd Katie Hannon with that build? Does it exemp well?

[Enots]

On 1/16/2021 at 4:36 PM, Frosticus said:

I think if I didn't have an ill/cold I'd roll an ill/ta.

Just about everything in TA compliments illusion and the synergy is undeniable in things like:

spec terror + flash arrow = huge tohit debuffs that are safely applied before the fight

acid arrow+ healback = should block some of the heal back from illusionary damage

reliable st and semi reliable aoe containment - two things illusion does not excel at

decent aoe damage from oil slick and proc'd acid arrow to round out the stellar st damage of illusion

 

That said, ill/cold is still better at killing AV/GM's, maybe by a large amount. The stacking -res is just extreme on top of benumb. But I could see myself playing an ill/ta at x8 settings and I don't really find that fun on ill/cold.

Truly amazing to see all your accomplishments. I roll an Ill/cold/psi. I run x8 fairly well with a proc’d out psy nado. FF, 4 dmg procs, and an 53 acc/dmg Hami O. It’s not so much a hard TF speciality build but a generalist that can crush hard targets as well. Psy nado is just ok for procs I think it’s a 35%ish proc rate with no recharge slotted, it’s enough to take out minions and lieutenants, so PA can concentrate on the harder targets.

[ThrillMill]

This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.0.5.6
https://github.com/Reborn-Team/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Technology Controller
Primary Power Set: Fire Control
Secondary Power Set: Radiation Emission
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Fire Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Char -- Apc-Dmg/Rchg(A), Apc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(3), Apc-Acc/Rchg(3), Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(5), Apc-Dam%(5)
Level 1: Radiant Aura -- Prv-Heal(A), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(7)
Level 2: Fire Cages -- SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg(A), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx(7), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(9), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(9), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(11), SprFrzBls-Rchg/ImmobProc(11)
Level 4: Accelerate Metabolism -- PreOptmz-EndMod/Rech(A), PreOptmz-EndMod/Acc/Rech(13), PreOptmz-EndMod/End/Rech(13)
Level 6: Radiation Infection -- DarWtcDsp-ToHitDeb/Rchg(A), DarWtcDsp-ToHitDeb(15), DarWtcDsp-ToHitdeb/Rchg/EndRdx(15), DarWtcDsp-Rchg/EndRdx(17)
Level 8: Hot Feet -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(17), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(19), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(19), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(21), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(21)
Level 10: Enervating Field -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 12: Flashfire -- AbsAmz-Stun(A), AbsAmz-Stun/Rchg(23), AbsAmz-Acc/Stun/Rchg(25), AbsAmz-Acc/Rchg(25), AbsAmz-ToHitDeb%(27)
Level 14: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(27)
Level 16: Super Speed -- Clr-EndRdx(A), Clr-Stlth(29)
Level 18: Cinders -- SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear(A), SprWiloft-Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/Rchg(29), SprWiloft-EndRdx/Rchg(31), SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx(31), SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx/Rchg(48), SprWiloft-Rchg/Dmg%(50)
Level 20: Lingering Radiation -- PcnoftheT-Acc/Slow(A), PcnoftheT-Acc/EndRdx(31)
Level 22: Combat Jumping -- Ksm-ToHit+(A), Rct-ResDam%(23), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(33), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(48)
Level 24: Kick -- Empty(A)
Level 26: Bonfire -- OvrFrc-Acc/Dmg(A), OvrFrc-Dmg/End/Rech(33), OvrFrc-Dam/KB(33)
Level 28: Choking Cloud -- SprEnt-Acc/Hold(A), SprEnt-Acc/Hold/End(34), SprEnt-Acc/Hold/End/Rchg(34), SprEnt-Hold/Rchg(34), SprEnt-End/Rchg(50)
Level 30: Tough -- UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(A), UnbGrd-Max HP%(37), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(37), GldArm-3defTpProc(39)
Level 32: Fire Imps -- ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg(A), ExpRnf-Dmg/EndRdx(39), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), ExpRnf-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(40)
Level 35: Fire Blast -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg(A), SprWntBit-Dmg/Rchg(40), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(42), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), SprWntBit-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(42)
Level 38: Fire Ball -- Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(A), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(43), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(43), Rgn-Knock%(43)
Level 41: EM Pulse -- BslGaz-Acc/Hold(A), BslGaz-Acc/Rchg(45), BslGaz-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(45), BslGaz-Rchg/Hold(45)
Level 44: Fire Shield -- Ags-ResDam/EndRdx(A), Ags-ResDam(46), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(46), Ags-Psi/Status(46)
Level 47: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(48)
Level 49: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(50)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Containment 
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 1: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(36), Mrc-Rcvry+(36)
Level 1: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 1: Stamina -- PwrTrns-EndMod(A), PwrTrns-Dam/EndMod(36), PwrTrns-+Heal(37)
Level 16: Speed Phase 
Level 50: Nerve Partial Core Revamp 
------------