"The Game is not Balanced around IO's"..... should it be?

[Apparition]

31 minutes ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

There is also the good work done on making Proc Monster builds for tankers that bury Brute damage.

 

 

Damage procs are a huge problem.  IMO, they needed to be nerfed into the ground yesterday.

 

Last week, I compared a popular Time Manipulation/Dual Pistols Defender build loaded to the brim with damage procs to my build for my Dual Pistols/Temporal Manipulation Blaster.

 

Pistols on the Defender did four less damage than Pistols on my Blaster.  The other attacks averaged less than ten percent less damage than the same attacks on my Blaster.  The Defender had much higher defense and resistance numbers than my Blaster in comparison.  In what world is that acceptable?

Edited February 2, 2021 by Apparition

[twozerofoxtrot]

2 minutes ago, Apparition said:

Damage procs are a huge problem. 

Despite loving them, I have to admit I agree with the general sentiment here. 

 

DP Sentinels sort of have a similar brokenness to them when paired with easily soft-capped sets for the same reason*. The extreme damage hold packed with 2 purple procs, 2 regular procs, and 2 53 Acc/Dam Hami-Os is just sort of absurd. 

 

 

*(cause you have more slots for procs)

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

That sounds about as close to parity as you get in a game.

 

Either way, if the scrapper is beating both, my original point stands. Tanker buffs didn't make the game any easier, it just adjusted the frequency of play between competing ATs.

If a tank is doing 90% the single target damage as a brute, but doing more aoe output with greater mitigation, there is no parity.

 

Again, those tests were against standard enemies. As the difficulty goes up, the scrapper ceases to survive where the brute and tank keep on trucking. Edit: And as diff goes up further, the brute falls and the tank keeps going, again, doing almost as much damage. Before the tank buffs, there was parity amongst the three. Now, there is not. I might make the argument that there's some between the tank and scrapper, but not for the brute.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Haijinx]

5 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

you know you dont have to fight them. or is the point to change other peoples experiences instead of your own?

 

Nobody is going to change anything because I say so.  

 

You can relax.   Noone's experiences are going to change.   The proponents of the super ultra chocolate easy mode are firmly in control of this game's destiny.  

 

It doesn't make you all right though.   They ARE too weak.  Objectively so. 

[Haijinx]

44 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

If a tank is doing 90% the single target damage as a brute, but doing more aoe output with greater mitigation, there is no parity.

 

Again, those tests were against standard enemies. As the difficulty goes up, the scrapper ceases to survive where the brute and tank keep on trucking. Edit: And as diff goes up further, the brute falls and the tank keeps going, again, doing almost as much damage. Before the tank buffs, there was parity amongst the three. Now, there is not. I might make the argument that there's some between the tank and scrapper, but not for the brute.

If the game came out with all ATs on all sides, we wouldn't have all three.   Or even all 4 since Stalkers belong here too.  

 

There would be only the two, Tankers and Scrappers.   Stalkers would be a Scrapper with the Ninjitsu Secondary.   And Tankers would have gotten a less potent version of Fury. 

[BelleSorciere]

2 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

If the game came out with all ATs on all sides, we wouldn't have all three.   Or even all 4 since Stalkers belong here too.  

 

There would be only the two, Tankers and Scrappers.   Stalkers would be a Scrapper with the Ninjitsu Secondary.   And Tankers would have gotten a less potent version of Fury. 

 

And the point of this hypothetical is?

[Haijinx]

12 minutes ago, BelleSorciere said:

 

And the point of this hypothetical is?

It explains why its so hard producing noticable granularity between those ATs 

 

Because when designed they weren't intended to inhabit the same faction. 

 

BillZ mentioning that scrappers and Tankers had about the right seperation led me to make the observation.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Haijinx

[twozerofoxtrot]

I mean but we're getting lost in the woods with a discussion about which AT is better.

 

When the point I was trying to make was that none of that actually equates to the game being easier overall.

 

RE: Scrapper Saturdays.

[golstat2003]

8 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

And that's a great reason. On the ride from 1-50, brutes are far more fun just thanks to fury alone.

Also as a Brute I'm not expected to hold aggro as well as a Tank. A Brute not having taunt I think is seen as more acceptable than a Tank not having it.

 

When I want to be a team protector I play a Tank. When I want to just SMASH I play a Brute. Even with the buffs that's the position they hold in my mind. 

 

Plus I find tanks to be boring as dog s&%$ on a sidewalk on a hot summer day, when leveling them.

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 hours ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

I mean but we're getting lost in the woods with a discussion about which AT is better.

 

When the point I was trying to make was that none of that actually equates to the game being easier overall.

 

RE: Scrapper Saturdays.

But the game did get easier for everyone playing tankers.

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

But the game did get easier for everyone playing tankers.

But not to the point of zOMG all I can has is tankers now - in fact ive rolled more scrappers and stalkers since the tanker update because I already had my tankers set up - it made them more valid and fun but not gamebreakingly OP by any stretch.

 

If I want dmg and to kill something fast in going for a scrapper or stalker - even one of my brutes - if I want maximum support and survivability with a decent portion of damage I get my tankers.

 

My brutes are set up to survive also but are kinda in between scrapper and tanker.

 

In my mind that's exactly how the melees should feel.

 

Thats just my opinion though.  Ive never had any tanker of mine outdamage one of my brutes or even come close aside from mopping up minions and lieutenants with the massive aoe - once it gets to the boss fight I rely on team damage to take them out as a tanker (while I keep all their attention on me) - as a brute in wailing on that sucker till he drops - while still hanging in there strong.

[Erratic1]

21 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

But you're completely correct. Make any change, the playerbase will shift to the highest reward/least resistance mode because that's how humans are geared. We're a lazy and short-sighted species.

Highest reward for least effort is a strategy that allows the species to be here at all. Wasteful species tend either to not survive or quickly become more efficient when resources drop depending on how quick the drop is.

 

As for short-sightedness, we tend to fall short of what we know we could do. Compared to other species? Leave a bag of open dog food accessible and go away for the weekend while leaving the dog at home. Most dogs would not understand you having a big metal box full of food which you do not immediately and completely empty by stuffing yourself.

 

But yeah, talk about weird hangups...

 

I will visit a farm from time to time because it can be neat to see someone operating at such an extreme. But the thrill wears off quickly and I depart. But invite me to a +4/8 PI Radio Mission team and even though its effectively the same thing, its engaging. My higher brain has not figured out why the one is boring and the other not.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Erratic1

[Bill Z Bubba]

6 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

My higher brain has not figured out why the one is boring and the other not.

Fun is wonderfully subjective and can override logic at the drop of a hat. There's as many different opinions on what fun is as there are posts in any given thread. Even our own brains can find something fun one day and boring the next and then swap back.

 

My personal struggle is that often times seeing an imbalance in the underlying structure of the game can become a detriment to my enjoyment of it and that prompts me to action.

[Doc_Scorpion]

12 hours ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

Tanker buffs didn't make the game any easier, it just adjusted the frequency of play between competing ATs.

Adjusting frequency of play was the entire point of the changes.

[Bill Z Bubba]

23 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Adjusting frequency of play was the entire point of the changes.

So why waste time overbuffing an archetype that didn't need it rather than working on the archetypes that actually NEED help in that arena?

 

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

So why waste time overbuffing an archetype that didn't need it rather than working on the archetypes that actually NEED help in that arena?

 

Overbuffing IMO is a stretch, it more focused an update to give the tanker an extended team role that it was currently lagging behind the other melee ATs - without infringing on the other 3 melee ATs - and it accomplished that really well.  A tanker just isn't going to compete let alone surpass a scrapper or stalker for damage - or even a Brute for that matter if its similarly and well built.

 

Yes there are outliers that under certain circumstances can surpass a brute with damage - but there are also Brute outliers that can cap resistances and survive just as good as tankers.

 

The two I think are supposed to be that similar and interchangeable, while at the same time different enough to have a different feel to their play style.

[Bill Z Bubba]

6 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

it more focused an update to give the tanker an extended team role

While completely ignoring those poor EATs that actually need something done. I'll stick with "unwarranted and unnecessary" in regards to the tank changes that obviously occurred for no other reason than someone's personal whim and bias.

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

While completely ignoring those poor EATs that actually need something done. I'll stick with "unwarranted and unnecessary" in regards to the tank changes that obviously occurred for no other reason than someone's personal whim and bias.

Larger problems take longer times - I dont see this as whim or bias but an effective solution - that was carried out well and in a timely fashion - how do you know EATs aren't being worked on little by little so the solution will be an astounding success rather than a rushed failure?

 

The tanker update was a good one IMO

[Galaxy Brain]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

So why waste time overbuffing an archetype that didn't need it rather than working on the archetypes that actually NEED help in that arena?

 

 

Side note from the convo, but the EAT's in particular are generally a "One and Done" AT, so it makes sense for them. You can make 2309847234 blasters, but at best 4 VEAT's. 

 

Next lowest, Stalkers, not only hide from census data but are a very particular AT with a bad stigma. They're actually pretty dang amazing but at the same time their focused playstyle homogenizes some of their sets, making them feel similar Stalker to Stalker, which could be an inherent reason why there are less.

 

Dominators are hard to get a handle on in terms of how to tackle / build one, so I can see that as a turn off for many.

 

Corruptors/Defenders are kinda tied, tho I'm not sure why they're lower. Maybe less people like playing support? Sentinels are in the mix here too as theyre newer... and well, don't do as much damage as some may expect.

 

From there we have Tanks which have recently been buffed, and then the damage piles in with most AT's here except controllers, which I think may have a particular combo or two that are super popular + lend themselves more to support.

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by Galaxy Brain

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Larger problems take longer times - I dont see this as whim or bias but an effective solution - that was carried out well and in a timely fashion - how do you know EATs aren't being worked on little by little so the solution will be an astounding success rather than a rushed failure?

 

The tanker update was a good one IMO

An effective solution wouldn't have involved tanks suddenly replacing brutes to the scrap pile for end game content.

[BelleSorciere]

7 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

Also as a Brute I'm not expected to hold aggro as well as a Tank. A Brute not having taunt I think is seen as more acceptable than a Tank not having it.

 

When I want to be a team protector I play a Tank. When I want to just SMASH I play a Brute. Even with the buffs that's the position they hold in my mind. 

 

Plus I find tanks to be boring as dog s&%$ on a sidewalk on a hot summer day, when leveling them.

 

I tank on my Brute all the time. The only time I cannot tank an entire TF is when someone has a Tanker on the team, because the Tanker can override any aggro a Brute collects. My Tanker is more durable and has a smoother experience, but both are fine for the role. 

 

Defenders are likely more popular because of their ability to leverage damage proc IOs.

Edited February 2, 2021 by BelleSorciere

[Haijinx]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

So why waste time overbuffing an archetype that didn't need it rather than working on the archetypes that actually NEED help in that arena?

 

I wonder how many more Stalkers we would have if they just made Hide have a no visual Effect option.

 

[Haijinx]

Really the added AOE damage a Tank does over the Brute is pretty widely overshadowed by even a casually built blaster.  So on many teams its not going to be as noticeable. 

[BelleSorciere]

3 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Really the added AOE damage a Tank does over the Brute is pretty widely overshadowed by even a casually built blaster.  So on many teams its not going to be as noticeable. 

Isn't this shifting the goalposts? The comparison in question is Brutes and Tankers.

[Haijinx]

Just now, BelleSorciere said:

Isn't this shifting the goalposts? The comparison in question is Brutes and Tankers.

I just mean how its going to feel on most teams. 

 

You are right that in the comparison between the two the difference is important.