Change Sidekick to level rather than level-1

[arthurh35353]

1 hour ago, Coyotedancer said:

But then, I may be a bit biased here. I don't really think the problem you guys are trying to solve actually is all that pressing an issue. 

It's sorta fixed on regular TFs and such when the main is exemplared/malefactored down to the lowest level, people that are sidekicked up to them become even level. It was rather nice not being -1 and fighting extra hard with less powers and slots.

[thunderforce]

On 2/19/2021 at 8:43 PM, Replacement said:

I'm not certain you would be satisfied with any fix that isn't "remove the -1 level" but I just don't see it happening.

 

It's kind of a core premise, it's part of the fiction, and not everyone is on board with removing it.

It's not even remotely a core premise. It's about as much of a core premise as that the highbie exemplared to you should be kicked from the taskforce if, at any point, one of your housemates tries to use the telephone. [1] It's the last vestige of a mechanic every other part of which has been removed because it was bad.

On 2/20/2021 at 1:13 AM, Coyotedancer said:

So, you want people to have to keep a constant eye on their buff bar to avoid losing the extra level? 

Presumably in the range-based suggestion (which is not as good as straight-up removal) the range could be generous enough that this wouldn't demand constant vigilance.

 

[1] Exactly this would happen in the old days of dialup, exemplar/sidekick pairs, and rigid upper level limits.

[BelleSorciere]

12 hours ago, thunderforce said:

It's not even remotely a core premise. It's about as much of a core premise as that the highbie exemplared to you should be kicked from the taskforce if, at any point, one of your housemates tries to use the telephone. [1] It's the last vestige of a mechanic every other part of which has been removed because it was bad.

Presumably in the range-based suggestion (which is not as good as straight-up removal) the range could be generous enough that this wouldn't demand constant vigilance.

 

[1] Exactly this would happen in the old days of dialup, exemplar/sidekick pairs, and rigid upper level limits.

Early on in the CoH days when Exemplaring was new we had to start the Manticore task force multiple times because the one guy we had exemplared kept getting unexemp'd and booted. This was not the only time I experienced this, just the first.

[TemporalVileTerror]

A Level Boost for Sidekicks/Lackeys could be treated as a PBAoE Buff, originating from the Team Leader.

How many complaints do we have about the Range on the Leadership Buffs?  Err on the side of caution and make the Level Boost Buff radius a bit larger than Leadership.

Hell.  Maybe even introduce the Level Boost Buff in to the existing Leadership Buffs.

[srmalloy]

8 hours ago, BelleSorciere said:

Early on in the CoH days when Exemplaring was new we had to start the Manticore task force multiple times because the one guy we had exemplared kept getting unexemp'd and booted. This was not the only time I experienced this, just the first.

This was an ongoing issue with the Positron TF; it seemed like every time I ran it, the team was made up of four exemplar/anchor pairs, and the client was still unstable enough that it was a crapshoot whether we'd make it past the middle of the TF without having someone crash or disconnect, with a 50% chance that it would be an anchor, causing their paired exemplar to be ejected from the TF. If it happened in the first two missions, we'd generally restart, but later in the TF we'd just bull through.

[Col. Kernel]

On 2/16/2021 at 8:16 PM, BelleSorciere said:

Countercounterpoint: If I'm not 50 I still still like playing the game

Wait a minute, you can't play the game when you're SKd?  I've been playing since I3 and never knew that!

[TemporalVileTerror]

You know, it's funny.

 

Even with how janky and unreliable Sidekicking was in the ancient days of yesterbefore, City of Heroes was -still- the best MMO for being able to team up with your friends, regardless of level.  It was basically one of the major selling points for me when I was still dabbling in exploring other MMOs.

But you compare how things were back then to how they are today, and it's kind of funny that we considered -that- to be the pinnacle of "team-friendly MMO features."

[UltraAlt]

On 2/14/2021 at 12:44 PM, Uun said:

If the mission holder is lvl 6 and got a lvl 8 boss while set to +0, that's a bug. On the other hand, getting +1s while set to +0 is working as intended. 

Sometimes the game intentionally puts you in situations where completing a mission is a lot easier once you have leveled up. 

I'm pretty sure I have run into that kind of situation quite a bit.

 

The behavior of gameplay with the Tsoo from when you first encounter them to when you have leveled up to beat them down is a good example.

 

It's a mechanic to make them a real threat to overcome so when you can beat them down ... it's all that much more rewarding.

[BelleSorciere]

On 2/24/2021 at 7:08 AM, srmalloy said:

This was an ongoing issue with the Positron TF; it seemed like every time I ran it, the team was made up of four exemplar/anchor pairs, and the client was still unstable enough that it was a crapshoot whether we'd make it past the middle of the TF without having someone crash or disconnect, with a 50% chance that it would be an anchor, causing their paired exemplar to be ejected from the TF. If it happened in the first two missions, we'd generally restart, but later in the TF we'd just bull through.

Oh yeah, it was so easy for something to go wrong that it almost wasn't worth it at times.

On 2/25/2021 at 2:36 PM, Col. Kernel said:

Wait a minute, you can't play the game when you're SKd?  I've been playing since I3 and never knew that!

Considering that your post that I responded to said that "if you're sidekicking you're there more for the XP than assisting the team" to which I replied "I still like playing the game" As in I responded to your implication that the only reason to sidekick was to power level. It's almost as if your response here doesn't have any relevancy to what your previous post said. If you're not going to add anything, why are you here?

 

Also, I can do that much faster by putting my character in a cave with my fire/rad tanker 

On 2/25/2021 at 5:05 PM, TemporalVileTerror said:

You know, it's funny.

 

Even with how janky and unreliable Sidekicking was in the ancient days of yesterbefore, City of Heroes was -still- the best MMO for being able to team up with your friends, regardless of level.  It was basically one of the major selling points for me when I was still dabbling in exploring other MMOs.

But you compare how things were back then to how they are today, and it's kind of funny that we considered -that- to be the pinnacle of "team-friendly MMO features."

Totally agreed. At the time it was a very nice option that didn't exist anywhere else

[TemporalVileTerror]

Yup.

And it also demonstrates that this has been something which has been improved over time.  We're not yet necessarily at the optimal solution to teaming, content, and level-gate interactivity.

So, yeah . . . while some people like things the way they are, and they totally get to like things this way . . . anyone who tries to argue that we shouldn't attempt to further improve Sidekicking "just because" should bear in mind that improvements have been made to the system since its inception.  There's still room to grow, here.

[Col. Kernel]

7 hours ago, BelleSorciere said:

Oh yeah, it was so easy for something to go wrong that it almost wasn't worth it at times.

Considering that your post that I responded to said that "if you're sidekicking you're there more for the XP than assisting the team" to which I replied "I still like playing the game" As in I responded to your implication that the only reason to sidekick was to power level. It's almost as if your response here doesn't have any relevancy to what your previous post said. If you're not going to add anything, why are you here?

 

Also, I can do that much faster by putting my character in a cave with my fire/rad tanker 

Totally agreed. At the time it was a very nice option that didn't exist anywhere else

---

Fair enough.

I do enjoy teaming, regardless of the level difference. 

[Incursion]

Level shifting aside I did start a mastermind about 2 months ago that is now in his 30's.  I never played that class much on live so figured i'd try something new.  I did notice that there were various levels for my pets and the ability to upgrade them so they are on par.  It's understandable that that the low levels were sort of like henchmen, as they were tier 1/2 picks in the set.  For controllers, pets are their lvl 32 power, which is a big deal.  I think that puts them on par with the high tier masterminds pets, controllers are the original pet class after all and account for much of their damage.  I've also lived through the big pet nerf on live when pets were limited (fire monkeys being cut to 3).  They were insanely powerful at the time, but now the end game is much harder until you are level shifted and pets being so under level does neuter their ability some to contribute. I think even level makes sense.  Tier 9 pick, it should feel like it.  

[Teirusu]

I'm pretty sure it was mentioned in the way way waaay back by the original Devs that the reasoning behind the whole -1 system (mechanically) was so that the Sidekick could eventually catch up to their mentor.  I believe, with how the math works out, you can't catch up if the Sidekick was the same combat level as you, only if they're below you.  So, there is both a mechanical and flavor reason for them being -1 instead of being the same level.

 

That being said, don't take that as me agreeing that it's a fine mechanic.  I feel that it could, at least, be improved.

 

One simple-ish way might be for 50+1 team leaders to grant their +1 to SK'ed people in their team but not to natural 50s.  That would mean that everyone on a team would be, at least, combat level 50 (Or 51) so that there would be only 1 level difference on high-end teams instead of 2.  This would mean less XP for the side-kicks, but they'd be more useful.  Also, this be inline with the story of the game to some degree.  It's been stated in the iTrials that Tyrant's praetors were getting buffed by his incarnateness.