Can We Please Pin a Thread with Decent Powerset Pairs?

[Erratic1]

36 minutes ago, Herotu said:

... and yet I see posts like this on the forum, which in this case was comparing Ice/Ice Blaster to Ice/Ice Dom...

 

Quote

  On 3/13/2021 at 1:02 PM, oedipus_tex said:

For end game iTrials this particular Blaster is loads better than this particular Dominator. No comparison, zero. 

This seems pretty straight forward. What am I not understanding?

 

Context.

 

What oedipus tex wrote in full was:

 

Quote

Neither is strictly better, but IMO Ice/Ice Blaster is more straightforward mission. Excellent damage, can be played at range, pretty good mitigation from the sustain power, and excellent control of the endurance bar that allows you to freely add additional armor toggles. 

 

For end game iTrials this particular Blaster is loads better than this particular Dominator. No comparison, zero. 

 

For just general running up on mobs, the Dominator isn't terrible. Ice Control is a fun set with some unique mechanics. Major downsides are an extreme vulnerability to mezz detoggling Arctic Air and Chilling Embrace. Also a curse Ice Control has always suffered is being a melee oriented set with high endurance costs that make running armor toggles to survive at that close range harder to run. 

 

On the Blaster, take the Fire APP and slot Bonfire with KB to KD for a power with equivalent uptime to Ice Slick but better slotting options. 

 

Notice the openning words--"Neither is strictly better...."

 

For a particular portion of the game and in the opinion of the person making the statement, one particular AT based on a specific theme/powerset was better than a different AT based on the same theme/shared powerset. (oedipus tex knows his stuff, so while I mention it being his opinion it is in all likelihood a good opinion.)

 

However that is cross-AT comparison going on. Most people will tell you that in general a Blaster will have an easier and faster time than any of the support ATs in terms of dispatching targets. The focus of this thread is intra-AT comparison with the notion that some powerset combinations are (I'm willing to be generous to the notion so use the next word intentionally) near uniformly inferior to others. So I am not sure how what oedipus tex was saying applies to this thread.

[gorebash1]

Blaster is my favorite AT. For hover blasting I really like Psi or Dark with Time secondary. Stay in the back and pew pew. I am leveling up a DP/Martial right now and talk about fun from distance and up close. I keep Ki Push on autofire for those mobs that get a little too close for comfort. These are just a few of my blaster combos they are so many great sets. You just need to find a something that works for your play style.

[UltraAlt]

On 2/23/2021 at 1:40 PM, Hopestar said:

Not true, the most extreme case being Sonic/Dark/Munitions; This would be awful to play because it counters itself in the worst ways wanting you to be in close range but far for all the cones and all while dealing very little damage.

 

Sonic is a team support power. It functions on -Res. There will be people taunting or controlling most of the crowd.

High DPS is not the only answer in a fight.

 

Why would you want to be "far for all the cones"? 

You have to be close to the guy in the front to get the most of the crowd behind them.

 

On 2/23/2021 at 1:40 PM, Hopestar said:

Most of this thread seems to be in agreement that there are no bad builds, but anyone that says that clearly hasn't cared to think of reasons a combination of powers would be bad.

 

... or you haven't put enough thought into find good ways to use combinations and tactics that you haven't used successfully before.

 

On 2/23/2021 at 1:40 PM, Hopestar said:

As per this thread, I tried to make a list of builds in everything, but they were never stickied, nor the best way to do it. What needs to happen is a build-sharing website which has been in the works for more than a year now, which can have a rating system to show what people think is the best builds. Even then it's flawed. If you want a really good opinion on how a build will function, try the Homecoming Discord where the min-max veterans tend to hang out.

 

Cookie-cutter builds are just that.

Might as well make a cookie-cutter post list in the forums and people can rate the builds with the like options. 

Easy enough.

 

No cookie-cutter min-maxing for me.

 

I enjoy the flavor of different characters. 

Being the same as others is boring and self limiting.

 

[Nemu]

There is a difference between being proud of what you play and making the most of it and judging powersets on performance.

 

Yes all combination can work but they are not all equal. I can have fun with my AR/TA and I really enjoy the build, but I have no illusions about it's performance when I stack it against my Fire/Elec. There maybe very niche situations where the AR/TA will perform better, but overall the Fire/Elec will outperform, play more aggressively and kill faster.

 

Let's not pretend that dark blast slotted with pure to-hit debuff enhancements or electric blast slotted purely with end mods is anything more than a cute experiment. Will they work? Sure. Do some people think they are unique doing it that way and enjoy it? Absolutely. Do they stack in performance against other more cookie cutter ways to build such powersets? No, they won't.

 

Let's not get "it can work" and "it's powerful combo" mixed up.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Nemu

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, Nemu said:

There is a difference between being proud of what you play and making the most of it and judging powersets on performance.

 

Arguably true, however he OP requested:

 

Quote

I'd love a quick reference that says "that's a no-go" or "sure, give that a try" for each of the pairs.

 

From your own statement you really enjoy your AR/TA build. So presumably  it does not fall into the category of "no-go".

 

Is there some combination you could offer which is utterly unworkable?

[Hew]

On 2/18/2021 at 8:03 AM, Herotu said:

Keep your platitudes, I'd rather address the topic at hand.

 

This is about avoiding awful combinations - I'm not interested in winning or losing or being good or bad. 

There are no awful combinations. Hell, there are fully functional pool-only builds out there that can run 2/8 or better. 

[ChocolateMercenary]

On 2/23/2021 at 7:35 AM, UltraAlt said:

 

There are no awful combinations

Um. I have an Elec/Psi blaster that I love, ported over from live as a semi Static Shock knockoff. He is going to have a bad time at the with various enemies resisting him. I'm still going to have fun, but I know up front his combination in easily in the bottom half.

[Nemu]

6 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

Is there some combination you could offer which is utterly unworkable?

Of course!

 

Anything Sonic/. Shout ages me by 3 years every time I use it, the nuke is the only redeeming thing about the set as a blaster primary. I'd wish sonic blast onto my worst enemies if I want them to suffer.

 

I have a lot of disdain for the "blasters is for ranged" crowd so I'm gonna go with anything /Dev as well. /TA gets a nod too, OSA saved it a little. Prior to the patch /TA would have been a hard no-go for me (Puts on flameproof suit)😁

 

Following that line of thought, any build that takes a secondary and skips all the melee damage options.

 

Come to think of it, anything that's not a melee blaster, a panda or Fire/Elec is a no go for me.😆

 

In all seriousness I'm not going to take that comment from the OP quite so literally. I think a reasonable interpretation is "are any combos so under-performing that I'm going to regret picking them later on as I progress." In that context, any low damage primary paired with a low damage secondary goes against the blaster mantra of "kill or be killed." For that reason I'd rank the likes of sonic/dev and elec/dev bottom of the barrel especially if the player avoids melee range like a plague. /Dev is especially suck-tastic because of the setup time. You can replicate all the quality of life benefits of those utility toggles - stealth, endurance, +to hit, and defense - through IO sets. You can not, however, replicate the likes of bonesmasher or thunderstrike through IO sets and that's where devices really falls short. Of course I anticipate people saying solo with the proper setup you can get insane damage with /dev, but that's a luxury that players don't have most of the time, especially on teams.

 

I have an AR/TA, doesn't mean I'm a fan of /TA. It suffers much of the same negatives as /Dev. Too much utility that can be replicated elsewhere, and not enough instant gratification damage. However the silver lining is that all the baked in utility in /Dev and /TA allows more wiggle room for procs.

 

Following that line of thought, people can intentionally limit themselves taking a non-dev/ta secondary and skipping all the melee stuff. I find that even worse than just going with /Dev and /TA. When they go that route the performance of the choice of primary matters more, and the shortcomings of the under-performing primaries are even more visible.

 

I enjoy my AR/TA for theme though, a Rambo panda with full auto and LRM is a panda you don't wanna mess with.

[Erratic1]

43 minutes ago, Nemu said:

Of course!

 

Anything Sonic/. Shout ages me by 3 years every time I use it, the nuke is the only redeeming thing about the set as a blaster primary. I'd wish sonic blast onto my worst enemies if I want them to suffer.

 

If I enjoyed blasters more, I would probably take this as a challenge.  As is, I have only taken one to 50 and mostly burn out on them no later than the mid-30s (though my current Fire/Dark is holding my interest and is  level 38).  I should probably work her to 50 before giving into temptation.

 

43 minutes ago, Nemu said:

 

I have a lot of disdain for the "blasters is for ranged" crowd so I'm gonna go with anything /Dev as well. /TA gets a nod too, OSA saved it a little. Prior to the patch /TA would have been a hard no-go for me (Puts on flameproof suit)😁

 

Following that line of thought, any build that takes a secondary and skips all the melee damage options.

 

Did I mention my current Fire/Dark blaster? Granted I do plan to take Midnight Grasp at level 49 as a holder for Kinetic Combat IOs to round out her Smashing/Lethal defense. I have no intention to take her blapping (even if the playstyle is intriguing).

 

43 minutes ago, Nemu said:

Come to think of it, anything that's not a melee blaster, a panda or Fire/Elec is a no go for me.😆

 

In all seriousness I'm not going to take that comment from the OP quite so literally. I think a reasonable interpretation is "are any combos so under-performing that I'm going to regret picking them later on as I progress." In that context, any low damage primary paired with a low damage secondary goes against the blaster mantra of "kill or be killed." For that reason I'd rank the likes of sonic/dev and elec/dev bottom of the barrel especially if the player avoids melee range like a plague. /Dev is especially suck-tastic because of the setup time. You can replicate all the quality of life benefits of those utility toggles - stealth, endurance, +to hit, and defense - through IO sets. You can not, however, replicate the likes of bonesmasher or thunderstrike through IO sets and that's where devices really falls short. Of course I anticipate people saying solo with the proper setup you can get insane damage with /dev, but that's a luxury that players don't have most of the time, especially on teams.

 

Devices does not hold a lot of conceptual allure for me. How about I consider Sonic/TA?

 

 

 

[Nemu]

Knock yourself out, I have no doubt they can work. You can even compare your fire/dark against the sonic/ta and I'm sure you'll notice disparities.

 

Take shout, use it, and know true suffering 😆

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, Nemu said:

Knock yourself out, I have no doubt they can work. You can even compare your fire/dark against the sonic/ta and I'm sure you'll notice disparities.

 

Take shout, use it, and know true suffering 😆

 

I've got a Kinetics/Sonic Defender. Been there, done that.

[tidge]

I see no reason to "pin" a thread for some arbitrary reason of "best pairing for this AT". Many players pick pairings for "fluff" (i.e. concept) as well as picking them for "crunch" (i.e. NUMBERS PEW PEW!)

 

Have a question or a rando thought? Ask away or use the search bar.

[Erratic1]

On 3/23/2021 at 5:59 PM, Nemu said:

Anything Sonic/. Shout ages me by 3 years every time I use it, the nuke is the only redeeming thing about the set as a blaster primary. I'd wish sonic blast onto my worst enemies if I want them to suffer.

 

Seems at odds with...

 

Quote

Knock yourself out, I have no doubt they can work. 

 

...especially when the qualification I gave was:

 

Quote

Is there some combination you could offer which is utterly unworkable?

 

Qualifications:

• I have only gotten the character to level 22 (too much time farming legendary drops in Outriders I guess).
• Most things are workable through the 20s and opponents you see later in the game are nastier.

I thought I'd had some previous attempts at blasters that achieved serious control but they ain't got nothing on Sonic/TA. Its almost silly what the combo brings to the table. Blaster secondaries come with single target immobilize and some add on a hold or slow. TA gives you immobilize, hold, slow (area), and area perception frobbling. Then Sonic gives you sleep (area). I've glued (slowed) an opponent and its friends then chained Howl and Shockwave so they never get to me and are all getting hit repeatedly. I've slept groups and then dispatched their members one at a time (well, do have to deal with untimely waking there).  Posi 1 had me glue the door to city hall and well, that went quickly. Flashed the side group once we entered and no accidental having to deal with two groups.

 

But wait, there's Eagle Eye. I have never played with the archery sets before, either as  a primary or secondary and now I wish I'd paid more attention. Eagle Eye is virtual cheating. In one power you get +Accuracy, + Perception, To-Hit debuff resistance, +Regeneration, and +Recovery?!?!? Did I mention the +Recovery is better than Stamina? Stamina is +25% to base recovery, Eagle Eye is +50% to base recovery. Where with other blasters I would have to pause to rest to recover endurance and/or health with Eagle Eye you just keep on fighting. If you don't get killed by the time you make the next spawn you're fully healed and have all your endurance back.

 

Then at higher levels I am going to get Slow and Knockback resistance?

 

What is supposed to be unworkable here?

[Nemu]

Good for you!

 

I don't care.

[Erratic1]

15 minutes ago, Nemu said:

Good for you!

 

I don't care.

 

Clearly cared enough to make a response. 😜

[America's Angel]

How's this look?

 

PRIMARIES

S Tier

Fire/, Ice/

A Tier

Energy/,  Rad/, /Beam

B Tier

Dark/, Psy/, Archery/, DP/, Water/

C Tier

Elec/, Sonic/, AR/

 

SECONDARIES

S Tier

/Fire

A Tier

/Elec

B Tier

/Plant, /Ninja, /Energy, /Martial, /Atomic

C Tier

/Dark, /Sonic, /Devices, /TA, /Ice, /Temporal, /Mental

Edited March 25, 2021 by America's Angel

[Erratic1]

24 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

How's this look?

 

I would not disagree with that mirroring the consensus of the rankings of powersets within primary and secondary categories.

 

I think where there is room for argument is what happens when you combine them. Is C-Tier/C-Tier something horrible, bottom of the heap, should be avoided.

 

Fire/Fire is doubtlessly more popular than Elec/Mental, but the question is if Elec/Mental is so bad that it should not be played by beginners. As noted, I have made a Sonic/TA, which is C-Tier/C-Tier. It is not something I would warn people off of (so far).

Edited March 25, 2021 by Erratic1

[DougGraves]

On 3/25/2021 at 8:50 AM, Erratic1 said:

Fire/Fire is doubtlessly more popular than Elec/Mental, but the question is if Elec/Mental is so bad that it should not be played by beginners.

 

Right elec/elec has synergy with END drain.  elec/mental has drain psyche which gives -recovery.  So /elec and /mental are probably better with elec/ than they are with other primaries.

 

But I suspect a bigger question is what level you are playing at and if you are playing with IO sets.  At 50 with IO sets it basically comes down to damage so fire/fire wins.  But at level 20 with SOs having controls and other mitigation is actually useful so fire/fire may not win.  At least it may not win if soloing, if you team with a tanker you might just want aoe damage.

[Erratic1]

29 minutes ago, DougGraves said:

 

Right elec/elec has synergy with END drain.  elec/mental has drain psyche which gives -recovery.  So /elec and /mental are probably better with elec/ than they are with other primaries.

 

But I suspect a bigger question is what level you are playing at and if you are playing with IO sets.  At 50 with IO sets it basically comes down to damage so fire/fire wins.  But at level 20 with SOs having controls and other mitigation is actually useful so fire/fire may not win.  At least it may not win if soloing, if you team with a tanker you might just want aoe damage.

 

From experience, END drain is pretty useless and you could probably bottom out a target's endurance with your primary attacks roughly as fast as you would adding in secondary powers. But even with that said I would bet you see more Elec/Elec blasters than you do Elec/<something with useful synergy> because if X/ is your theme then /X is the obvious thematic fit.

 

As for Fire/Fire winning, I have gotten my Fire/Dark up to having Soul Drain and there is a lot to be said for boosting your damage output for 30 seconds. Yeah, you're going to do the big BOOM! but afterwards having that boosted damage means continuing to melt through foes like a hot knife cuts through butter. I just need to find a way to both have high defenses and high global recharge for her to achieve godhood. 

 

In the non-Fire/* department, my Sonic/TA blaster is also coming along. He feels more like a super corruptor--better damage than regular corruptors while having some controls. My currently planned build for him directly targets perma-Hasten. There is something to be said for being able to turn out two Mag 3 Immobilizes in under 2 seconds, double-Flash Arrowing targets for 6.56% To-Hit debuff each in under 4 seconds, and having an area, "Why don't all you trash mobs just sleep it off" power. Of course we measure blasters by the damage they bring and yeah, it doesn't spit it out quite like Fire does. Its not horrible but it ain't Fire. Even so, its been a lot of fun and certainly does not qualify as a miserable experience.

 

 

[Hardboiled Hero]

As a sentinel player, allow me to enlighten you..  there are absolutely no objectively bad blaster combinations!

 

  Honestly O.P., I'm with you on not generally trusting "play what you want". Like you, I understand that "I don't care about winning and losing" doesn't mean "I can lose all the time and feel like I'm not contributing, but still have fun."  being in that situation a few times.. sure, we can laugh it off, but being in that situation all the time is aggravating.  I don't care about winning and losing, but I do care about being "locked out" of content and being a drag on my team/friends. In the case of Blasters in City of Heroes though, I feel that "play what you want" is actually the best advice. consider these facts:

 

 1) Sentinels are far weaker than Blasters, in fact they're often considered the weakest AT, and Archery/Invulnerability Sentinels are considered weaker than most.

 1) An Arc/Inv. Sentinel can do any content in the game.

 2) An (optimized) Arc/Inv Sentinel can not compete with any (optimized) blaster combo for dps.

 3) Like a blaster (and unlike defenders/corruptors), the Archery Sentinel only brings dps.

 4) Under these conditions, "play what you want" is actually good advice for a blaster.

 

  In fact, "Play what you want" actually has power-level ramifications.

 

  ex:  My "main" Is an Arc/Inv Sentinel.  I have many other characters as well, but that is my most powerful character at the moment because, while it may take more time to optimize than my other characters, I enjoy playing it more, so I play it more often and take the time to improve it.  I have a water/fire Sentinel, a fire/fire sentinel, an Archery/Ninjutsu Sentinel and an Archery/Martial Blaster (among many other characters), all of which should be more powerful than my Arc/Inv Sentinel, but I don't really find them to be fun, so I don't play them much and don't really care to put in the time that it takes to optimize them. Hence, My Arc/Inv Sentinel is the most optimized powerset for me.

 

  While Many MMO's require specific builds to play in end-game content, leading people like the O.P. and I to really only enjoy playing those builds, even if we'd rather play something else in the back of our mind, I find that in CoH it is more important to enjoy the character first.  With that said, I don't fully expect anyone like the O.P. to actually accept this idea..  I've been to sooo many MMO's where people say "play what you like" and I end up constantly dying, being shut out of content, and being a drag on my team because "what I like" happens to be a "trash build" that other players just wouldn't be drawn to in the first place.

 

  There are certainly going to be Blaster builds that don't perform as well as other Blasters, but Blasters over-all are in a good place and even their "bad" Powersets can be used in end-game.

 

[Android Nim]

Necro....

my favorite lvl 50 blaster combos with some degree of synergy

 

Fire/TA (2 nukes bruh)

Beam/Dev - pew pew pew

Ice/TA - pocket troller

Rad/Sonic - so many PBAoE's a -res aura

Water/Ice - floppy death for baddies

 

 

 

[Elia87]

1 hour ago, Android Nim said:

Necro....

my favorite lvl 50 blaster combos with some degree of synergy

 

Fire/TA (2 nukes bruh)

Beam/Dev - pew pew pew

Ice/TA - pocket troller

Rad/Sonic - so many PBAoE's a -res aura

Water/Ice - floppy death for baddies

 

 

 

Any builds for that beam/dev you could share Nim please? I will post mine when i log on laptop but i dont think it is that great..

[Android Nim]

On 5/6/2021 at 4:56 PM, Elia87 said:

Any builds for that beam/dev you could share Nim please? I will post mine when i log on laptop but i dont think it is that great..

sorry just saw this.  I'll try to pull the build tonight. 

[Elia87]

11 hours ago, Android Nim said:

sorry just saw this.  I'll try to pull the build tonight. 

https://www.midsreborn.com/builds/download.php?uc=1476&c=693&a=1386&f=HEX&dc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

 

Hope it works

[JasperStone]

On 2/19/2021 at 8:56 AM, SwitchFade said:

Uh, any/any is the answer. Confused facing the answer doesn't change it, and anyone thinking that "fire/elec" outperforms water/bio or ice/atomic or elec/temp or ANYTHING... Is just limited by... Drumroll.... Operator Error 🤪

 

If you really play a blaster, all the sets are good, and all of them can be combined.

 

There's maybe a 5% spread, really, anything can be top tier. It's all about how you use it... No offense, but this is a thread now seeking an answer to a question that already has an answer.

 

Unless the desire is "which set combo requires least amount of effort, tactical use and/or has "win" button?" In which case, the answer is "none/none"

wait .... there is a win button? How did I not know this!!!