Add range buffs to all Ranged AoE sets?

[BLVD]

I've been wondering why only Positron's Blast, Air Burst, Artillery, and Detonation include a buff to range. Unless I'm wrong, it is a very valuable stat to increase for cones (increasing the total volume and arc length of the effect). Is there any reason why the buff was omitted from most of the sets? I think it'd be great to add it to all of the procs (ex: Ragnarok: Range/Chance for Knockdown). 

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, tan702 said:

I've been wondering why only Positron's Blast, Air Burst, Artillery, and Detonation include a buff to range. Unless I'm wrong, it is a very valuable stat to increase for cones (increasing the total volume and arc length of the effect). Is there any reason why the buff was omitted from most of the sets? I think it'd be great to add it to all of the procs (ex: Ragnarok: Range/Chance for Knockdown). 

Bombardment was also given a set bonus for range, so it should be included to some degree. 

[aethereal]

I'm not sure that range buffs are a particularly desirable enhancement for many targeted AoEs.  Obviously fireball-type circular AoEs don't get any particular benefit from them, and I think many cones are wide and long "enough" at base that it's easy to saturate them.

 

There certainly is a class of cones that really loves range bonuses.  But they can get them today.  Making all the sets uniform seems undesirable to me.

[AerialAssault]

For existing sets? I can't really argue with a straight up buff but I can see much twisting of teeth.

 

New enhancements however? Now we're talking!

[srmalloy]

5 hours ago, aethereal said:

I'm not sure that range buffs are a particularly desirable enhancement for many targeted AoEs.  Obviously fireball-type circular AoEs don't get any particular benefit from them

Being able to use the power on a target further away isn't a benefit? Cone AoEs get a longer cone, covering more area; ranged AoEs, whether location or targeted, get the same effect that a range boost to a single-target ranged attack does -- you can hit targets further away. To use M30 Grenade as an illustration, you're still shooting the same grenade, you're just using a bigger propelling charge.

[aethereal]

1 hour ago, srmalloy said:

Being able to use the power on a target further away isn't a benefit? Cone AoEs get a longer cone, covering more area; ranged AoEs, whether location or targeted, get the same effect that a range boost to a single-target ranged attack does -- you can hit targets further away. To use M30 Grenade as an illustration, you're still shooting the same grenade, you're just using a bigger propelling charge.

I don't think it's much of a benefit, no, unless you have a power that's irritatingly shorter-ranged than your others or you always find yourself oddly positioned in a group.  Which is why you don't see these kind of threads demanding range enhancement in all ranged damage sets.

[arcane]

Can you elaborate on which enhancement categories you think should be dropped to make room for additional range enhancement?

[BLVD]

10 minutes ago, arcane said:

Can you elaborate on which enhancement categories you think should be dropped to make room for additional range enhancement?

I don't think any should be dropped. I think it should be added on top of the rest. I'm just trying to find justification for why some Targeted AoE sets include that buff (on top of all the rest) and some don't. 

[arcane]

25 minutes ago, tan702 said:

I don't think any should be dropped. I think it should be added on top of the rest. I'm just trying to find justification for why some Targeted AoE sets include that buff (on top of all the rest) and some don't. 

Ok well that’s a non-starter. If you add an enhancement category, you either have to change the enhancement schedule to account for the additional effect or you have to drop something to stay on the same schedule. That’s the IO system’s basic design principles.

Edited March 8, 2021 by arcane

[aethereal]

41 minutes ago, tan702 said:

I don't think any should be dropped. I think it should be added on top of the rest. I'm just trying to find justification for why some Targeted AoE sets include that buff (on top of all the rest) and some don't. 

They don't.

 

They lose comparable enhancement values from other categories.

 

So here are Positron's Blast enhancement values at level 50:

 

Damage/Range - 26.5% damage, 15.9% range

Accuracy/Damage - 26.5% damage, 25.5% accuracy

Damage/Recharge - 26.5% damage, 26.5% recharge

Damage/Endurance - 26.5% damage, 26.5% endurance

Chance for Energy Damage - none

Accuracy/Damage/Endurance - 21.2% damage, 21.2% accuracy, 21.2% endurance

 

Which total up to (ignoring ED):

 

Damage 127%

Accuracy 47.2%

Endurance 47.2%

Recharge 26.5%

Range 15.9%

 

And if you compare to Annihilation at 50:

 

Damage/Recharge - 26.5% damage, 26.5% recharge

Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge - 18.5% damage, 18.5% accuracy, 18.5% endurance, 18.5% recharge

Accuracy/Damage - 26.5% damage, 26.5% accuracy

Accuracy/Damage/Recharge - 21.2% damage, 21.2% accuracy, 21.2% recharge

Accuracy/Damage/Endurance - 21.2% damage, 21.2% accuracy, 21.2% endurance

Chance for -Res - none

 

Which total up to:

 

Damage 114%

Accuracy 87.4%

Endurance 39.7%

Recharge 66.2%

 

So Positron's blast "pays for" higher damage, endurance, and range enhancement with much lower Accuracy and Recharge enhancement.  Range isn't free, you give up another enhancement category in that enhancement.

[BLVD]

35 minutes ago, aethereal said:

So Positron's blast "pays for" higher damage, endurance, and range enhancement with much lower Accuracy and Recharge enhancement.  Range isn't free, you give up another enhancement category in that enhancement.

Thank you for the explanation, I was thinking the idea was to completely drop one of the buffs. In that case then, I would want to add range to any damage/endurance or damage/recharge enhancements. All the sets are different though so I think it'd have to go in different enhancements. But in the end I think if some of the sets have a range buff, then all of them should.

[Outrider_01]

Guys....you are missing another set class

 

Range set blasts, have no range increase or set bonus.

 

would be nice if you can get another 10-15% on base 😐

[BLVD]

23 minutes ago, Outrider_01 said:

Guys....you are missing another set class

 

Range set blasts, have no range increase or set bonus.

 

would be nice if you can get another 10-15% on base 😐

Far Strike has Dam/Range and Salvo has Acc/Dam/End/Range. Again though, I'm not sure why there are only two ranged IO sets that include a buff to range. They are both lvl 10-25 as well. I'm struggling to think of any reasons why the ranged sets were designed this way. 

[aethereal]

1 hour ago, tan702 said:

Far Strike has Dam/Range and Salvo has Acc/Dam/End/Range. Again though, I'm not sure why there are only two ranged IO sets that include a buff to range. They are both lvl 10-25 as well. I'm struggling to think of any reasons why the ranged sets were designed this way. 

Because range is not a very valuable enhancement category for many powers.  In general, besides certain cones, if you have the choice between a range enhancement and, say, an accuracy or endurance or recharge or damage enhancement, for most powers and most builds you want the other enhancement category.  It would nerf these sets to give up some of their existing enhancement bonuses in order to add range.

[BLVD]

1 hour ago, aethereal said:

Because range is not a very valuable enhancement category for many powers.  In general, besides certain cones, if you have the choice between a range enhancement and, say, an accuracy or endurance or recharge or damage enhancement, for most powers and most builds you want the other enhancement category.  It would nerf these sets to give up some of their existing enhancement bonuses in order to add range.

I would argue that range is very valuable in certain situations. IMO, being able to increase the distance between yourself and enemies is worth losing a little bit of damage and accuracy, especially since you have inspirations... let alone the value it would add to cones. 

[aethereal]

5 minutes ago, tan702 said:

I would argue that range is very valuable in certain situations. IMO, being able to increase the distance between yourself and enemies is worth losing a little bit of damage and accuracy, especially since you have inspirations... let alone the value it would add to cones. 

Range is very valuable in certain, relatively infrequent, situations.  Thus, it is good design to allow players to choose to prioritize range vs other enhancement categories, rather than providing mechanical incentives that say, "Every power will get a small range boost."

Edited March 8, 2021 by aethereal

[Outrider_01]

10 hours ago, tan702 said:

Far Strike has Dam/Range and Salvo has Acc/Dam/End/Range. Again though, I'm not sure why there are only two ranged IO sets that include a buff to range. They are both lvl 10-25 as well. I'm struggling to think of any reasons why the ranged sets were designed this way. 

Like a TO worth, not even worth it.  And was thinking more of a IO bonus slot.

 

9 hours ago, aethereal said:

Because range is not a very valuable enhancement category for many powers.  In general, besides certain cones, if you have the choice between a range enhancement and, say, an accuracy or endurance or recharge or damage enhancement, for most powers and most builds you want the other enhancement category.  It would nerf these sets to give up some of their existing enhancement bonuses in order to add range.

Thunderstrike is 70% ACC/Recharge/EndurReduc and 100% damage, just the set with no bonus.  It would use a little range and piddle out some of the other stuff.  And lots of useless resist in every set, could combine the resist of bonus 1 and bonus slot 2/3/5/6 and make the first slot like 3% to 5% range bonus as you go up the level ranges. 

 

I made a Ice/Ice Sent build that was 100 range on the single target attacks with a clever use of Sentinel ATO + a single DMG/Range Hami-O, almost perma hasten by .5 sec slow, perma hoar frost, and Icy Bastion 38 click perma almost capping resist or will power level regen with a heal set (depending on the slot set), with 100 range Arctic Breath from the epic pools without a Hami-O.  Only thing killing it from wanting to actually try it is its a fake a blaster with status protection is lacks blaps which Sents should of been Assault/Armor, like Dominator secondary as primary with a defense/resist secondary.  The PBAoE in some of the sentinel secondaries is an anthesis to the range primary, if you are in melee range why bother blasting and at range the PBAoE non-nuke stuff is just useless (unless you are firing off Inferno). 

 

So the tl;dr is - range isn't so bad if you can fit it.  Just having an extra 10-20% for a blaster and it was a passive bonus would fit that "lol range is defense"  or at least let them hit stuff as they flee in fear of a blaster wearing a gasoline can.

[arcane]

Y’all just need to start taking Intuition Alpha tho srsly.

[golstat2003]

On 3/8/2021 at 5:40 PM, tan702 said:

I would argue that range is very valuable in certain situations. IMO, being able to increase the distance between yourself and enemies is worth losing a little bit of damage and accuracy, especially since you have inspirations... let alone the value it would add to cones. 

I would STRONGLY DISAGREE.