Focused Feedback: Power Changes (Build 1)

[SwitchFade]

3 hours ago, Linea said:

Even being mezzed for a short duration is essentially an insta-kill on squishies, and for that matter many non-squishies.   That stun that finally punches through the tanks protection, drops the tank almost instantly.   A measly 50 dps incoming in a capped out tank that gets stunned can instantly turn into 2500 or even 5000 dps.  Oops, you're dead in half a second.  (I use Rune/Hybrid/Rune on those armors, particularly resist armors, in high-mez situations.  It totally sucks when your tank gets stunned.   As a side note, I'd totally be in favor of doubling resist armors status protection for this very reason)

 

A standard rotation is: Rune/Hybrid/Rune/30s   gap.   That gap is negligible in normal content as it can be spread out while moving between mobs, and most fights don't last 5+m

Revised Rotation is:  Rune/Hybrid/30s gap/Rune/30s gap/Hybrid/Rune/60s gap/Hybrid.  Many more gaps, and a maximum on-time of 3m instead of 5m. 

 

While my Time/ will be less effected due to both higher recharge and the ability to do an alternate Force of Nature build, pretty much all the other squishy builds will be significantly negatively impacted.

Hmm, I have to disagree. I have plenty of squishies, have never taken RoP and have never needed it.

 

My blasters alpha, my controllers alpha, my defenders alpha... And none worry about mez. I'm always the first one in before the tank, scrap, or anyone else on every toon against every faction. I build tactically to overcome mez without insps, without RoP.

 

Oh, I also don't use any temp or rely on incarnates. I've played the game since issue 2, and learned long ago how to overcome it through all the revamps and permutations.

 

For example, my blasters are built for defense and are tough enough to stumble around if they ever are meZed, and usually wipe spawns with their alpha, so mez is a non issue.

 

My controllers are built for defense and alpha stun the spawn, return mez negated. If they ever rarely do get meZed, not an issue.

 

Honestly, if  a player is relying on RoP on a squishie, there is a far, FAR more effective way to play, because RoP is not the most effective way to overcome mez. I'm happy to demonstrate in game.

[Linea]

None of that changes the way I experience the game, nor does it dissuade me of my desire to have Rune with it's longer duration, and other pool options with similar efficacy as well, to help shore up my poor hand-eye coordination, inferior skill, terrible builds, and poor playstyles. 

 

Edited March 19, 2021 by Linea

[scottocamp]

1 hour ago, SwitchFade said:

Hmm, I have to disagree. I have plenty of squishies, have never taken RoP and have never needed it.

 

My blasters alpha, my controllers alpha, my defenders alpha... And none worry about mez. I'm always the first one in before the tank, scrap, or anyone else on every toon against every faction. I build tactically to overcome mez without insps, without RoP.

 

Oh, I also don't use any temp or rely on incarnates. I've played the game since issue 2, and learned long ago how to overcome it through all the revamps and permutations.

 

For example, my blasters are built for defense and are tough enough to stumble around if they ever are meZed, and usually wipe spawns with their alpha, so mez is a non issue.

 

My controllers are built for defense and alpha stun the spawn, return mez negated. If they ever rarely do get meZed, not an issue.

 

Honestly, if  a player is relying on RoP on a squishie, there is a far, FAR more effective way to play, because RoP is not the most effective way to overcome mez. I'm happy to demonstrate in game.

 

Are you saying that RoP as it currently stands is never worth taking?  That would seem to argue for not making the power even less effective.

 

[SwitchFade]

58 minutes ago, scottocamp said:

 

Are you saying that RoP as it currently stands is never worth taking?  That would seem to argue for not making the power even less effective.

 

That would be not at all what I said.

 

Basically, complaining that it should not be changed based on how essential it is, and changing it breaks things, is a fallacy, as it's completely unnecessary. In actuality, it's usefulness to survivability is an option, but an inferior one at that.

 

In essence, the change is good because it was out of alignment for it's purpose. In either incarnation, it is akin to using brawl as a means of dealing damage: certainly ok to do, but by no means necessary or even the most efficient 

 

Look at it this way, if I said horse drawn carriages were being limited to 1 person occupancy when being used during rush hour in down town New York, it might be a slight change, but a shrug worthy one at that.

 

RoP was a nice build diversity option that was overturned and is now in line... But anyone using it as a primary means of status mitigation, while perfectly ok, is absolutely using one of the lesser effective means of mitigation, just like brawl is a-ok, but a lesser means of delaying damage.

 

So any argument that broken-build results, is a stretch.

 

Edit: removed a silly typo

Edited March 19, 2021 by SwitchFade

[scottocamp]

19 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

That would be not at all what I said at all.

 

Basically, complaining that it should not be changed based on how essential it is, and changing it breaks things, is a fallacy, as it's completely unnecessary. In actuality, it's usefulness to survivability is an option, but an inferior one at that.

 

In essence, the change is good because it was out of alignment for it's purpose. In either incarnation, it is akin to using brawl as a means of dealing damage: certainly ok to do, but by no means necessary or even the most efficient 

 

Look at it this way, if I said horse drawn carriages were being limited to 1 person occupancy when being used during rush hour in down town New York, it might be a slight change, but a shrug worthy one at that.

 

RoP was a nice build diversity option that was overturned and is now in line... But anyone using it as a primary means of status mitigation, while perfectly ok, is absolutely using one of the lesser effective means of mitigation, just like brawl is a-ok, but a lesser means of delaying damage.

 

So any argument that broken-build results, is a stretch.

 

Still seems odd to me to say that RoP is both over-tuned *and* inferior.   A horse drawn carriage in modern day New York city certainly doesn't need to be made even less useful.  Why make this "completely unnecessary" power less useful?

[arcane]

7 minutes ago, scottocamp said:

 

Still seems odd to me to say that RoP is both over-tuned *and* inferior.   A horse drawn carriage in modern day New York city certainly doesn't need to be made even less useful.  Why make this "completely unnecessary" power less useful?

It’s overtuned for a pool power but inferior to tactics strictly as a form of mez protection. Apples and oranges - he wasn’t saying they were simultaneously overtuned and inferior in the same capacity.

 

Also just wanna +1 to the guy who said he uses this power more for damage resistance anyway.

Edited March 19, 2021 by arcane

[SwitchFade]

6 minutes ago, scottocamp said:

 

Still seems odd to me to say that RoP is both over-tuned *and* inferior.   A horse drawn carriage in modern day New York city certainly doesn't need to be made even less useful.  Why make this "completely unnecessary" power less useful?

Understandable, but you're missing the point that pool powers exist in a certain spectrum, for which they can be over or under tuned.

You're making an assumption of range of performance when stratifying.

 

A Porsche can be undertuned for it's class, but still outperform a civic. A civic can be overturned for it's class, but still underperform vs a Porsche.

 

So, relative performance is exactly that, and as a pool power it was overturned.

 

 

[Wavicle]

6 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

 

I don't think this is possible 100% or even 50% of the time during game play. And I'm fine with that.

I’m not sure. I do know the devs stated they want it to be (roughly) true.

[Mezmera]

One of my doms has RoP, 30% resist all for 1:30 is nothing to sneeze at.  Tanks don't even get powers in their primary that resist so much aside from their godmodes.  And If I'd like to maintain that high resist/defense once RoP wears off I can alternate to Barrier or Melee Hybrid.  

 

I get the want to maintain the appeal of taking those Origin pools.  On most of my toons I go with Force of Will so I'm used to those t5 powers being 60s.  I understand where they want to get them on the same timers and I also get where people don't like seeing a nerf of 33% to anything.  That's why I think a 15s compromise wouldn't be as bad for people who have already gotten used to this power for so long.  

[scottocamp]

1 hour ago, SwitchFade said:

Understandable, but you're missing the point that pool powers exist in a certain spectrum, for which they can be over or under tuned.

You're making an assumption of range of performance when stratifying.

 

A Porsche can be undertuned for it's class, but still outperform a civic. A civic can be overturned for it's class, but still underperform vs a Porsche.

 

So, relative performance is exactly that, and as a pool power it was overturned.

 

 

 

I understand your point.   You are saying RoP is not a good power.  It is not a power you have even taken.  Not a power you will ever take.  There are much better ways to deal with mez than adding RoP to your build.  RoP is like a horse drawn carriage.  RoP is like Brawl.  RoP is completely unnecessary. 

 

BUT........  Compared to other Pool powers (other powers in the same "class") RoP is over-powered, over-tuned and needs to be nerfed.  Because other Pool powers like Flurry are even worse than RoP, then RoP needs to be brought down a notch.  So let's take the wheels off that horse drawn carriage.

 

My point is that this is a ridiculous solution.  Yes, the issue is somewhat apples and oranges - but perhaps we should look at the whole fruit basket once in a while.  Why make a power you obviously don't consider a very good power even less useful simply because it exists in the class of Pool powers that all happen to be fairly useless?  Why not instead make Pool powers as a class more relevant?  Why not make RoP a power you might actually consider taking?  Or in other words, why argue to nerf a power you currently believe is not worth taking? 

 

Again - I get your point.  I just think it is an odd point to make.

 

 

[ScarySai]

42 minutes ago, scottocamp said:

BUT........  Compared to other Pool powers (other powers in the same "class") RoP is over-powered, over-tuned and needs to be nerfed.  Because other Pool powers like Flurry are even worse than RoP, then RoP needs to be brought down a notch.  So let's take the wheels off that horse drawn carriage.

 

The other powers in the same 'class' are garbage and should be brought up, I would argue.

[siolfir]

I have never felt that Rune of Protection is overtuned. I did think it was good enough to be tempting, but ultimately not worth the cost because of how many sacrifices in my build it would require. Edit to add: and that was when I thought that the resistance was supposed to turn on all the time when it was clicked; obviously I never kept it long enough to realize that it wasn't doing that if you used it while mezzed, so the buff that this patch provides is honestly just getting it to where I wouldn't consider it "broken".

 

This is, in my opinion, a great balancing point. Tempting, but requiring sacrifices. That's how the tier 5 pool powers should be. Something to break up "I'll just take the Leaping, Speed, Leadership, and Fighting again because those powers are always available and provide small but stacking benefits."

Edited March 19, 2021 by siolfir

[SwitchFade]

55 minutes ago, scottocamp said:

 

I understand your point.   You are saying RoP is not a good power.  It is not a power you have even taken.  Not a power you will ever take.  There are much better ways to deal with mez than adding RoP to your build.  RoP is like a horse drawn carriage.  RoP is like Brawl.  RoP is completely unnecessary. 

 

BUT........  Compared to other Pool powers (other powers in the same "class") RoP is over-powered, over-tuned and needs to be nerfed.  Because other Pool powers like Flurry are even worse than RoP, then RoP needs to be brought down a notch.  So let's take the wheels off that horse drawn carriage.

 

My point is that this is a ridiculous solution.  Yes, the issue is somewhat apples and oranges - but perhaps we should look at the whole fruit basket once in a while.  Why make a power you obviously don't consider a very good power even less useful simply because it exists in the class of Pool powers that all happen to be fairly useless?  Why not instead make Pool powers as a class more relevant?  Why not make RoP a power you might actually consider taking?  Or in other words, why argue to nerf a power you currently believe is not worth taking? 

 

Again - I get your point.  I just think it is an odd point to make.

 

 

You're obviously not seeing the point when you are misstatting what I say. I never said RoP is not a good power, not did I say RoP is a horse drawn carriage.

 

I did say there are much better ways to deal with the threat of status effects and offered to demonstrate.

 

I explained the change by way of an analogy that used a carriage as part of a fictitious example and I think you know that, warping what I said is a bit of a stretch 😉

 

RoP is a fine power, just like brawl, jump kick, aid self, aid other, flurry, provoke, intimidate, etc... it was overtuned, and now is well balanced.

 

It's just not nearly the best way to deal with status effects. Which is ok.

Edited March 19, 2021 by SwitchFade

[ScarySai]

I might be inclined to agree if the rest of the sorcery set wasn't so underwhelming, practically speaking, rune was the only selling point the set had going for it. In it's current state, I simply cannot justify taking it.

 

I wouldn't call rune overtuned by any stretch, if anything it was perfect as it was, it was different, but hardly meta shaping.

[PeregrineFalcon]

25 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

I might be inclined to agree if the rest of the sorcery set wasn't so underwhelming, practically speaking, rune was the only selling point the set had going for it.

I have several magical characters where I picked Flight from the Sorcery pool instead of from the Flight pool simply because it looks magical and was appropriate for that character. On those characters I usually forget that I have Translocation and seldom use it.

 

So no. For people who aren't you Rune of Protection is NOT the Sorcery pools only selling point.

[ScarySai]

Theme is one thing, I'm speaking only of function.

[ForeverLaxx]

37 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

RoP is a fine power, just like brawl, jump kick, aid self, aid other, flurry, provoke, intimidate, etc... it was overtuned

I just find the concept that a power that requires 2 previous "wasted" picks to even get to for a situationally useful (and in some builds, a cornerstone) power is somehow "overtuned" because people wanted to use it and slot it strange. Hasten, on the other hand, requires nothing but "giving up" a Pool Powerset for the privilege of supercharging your character and the entire game seems to be pushing towards an assumption that everyone is going to be running at least moderate recharge bonuses. Hell, Dominators are designed around the fact permaDom exists, something you can't even get without significant investment, often including Hasten.

 

How is RoP overtuned when compared to all the other Pool Powers hardly anyone picks up? In all my time back on the live servers, I could count on one hand the number of people I saw with the Presence pool, and I was one of them with my MM. Stealth was more common, but not everywhere, and it's even less common now thanks to the Stealth IO. I saw more use of Medicine from misguided Empathy characters than I ever saw it on anyone else (outside of the early days of PvP). Even Acrobatics, something that used to be "essential" for armor sets that lacked KB protection now get that from an IO, making Acro effectively pointless even in the niche it was meant to fill.

 

Why nerf one of the only few Pool Powers in the game that justified the investment when there's so much work that could be done to the sad, underperforming ones instead? As you stated, the power isn't even "that great" for what you're getting.

Edited March 19, 2021 by ForeverLaxx

[VashNKnives]

Never took RoP but it does look very nice... why not increase its recharge instead? When you have to use a situational power it should help make for epic moments... Epic moments sometimes take more than a minute.

[Wavicle]

RoP still makes my corruptor nearly as tough as a scrapper for 60 seconds. I won't be respeccing out of that. At least not on that particular toon.

 

I agree it was overtuned relative to the other Origin pool t5s and relative to Epic powers like Force of Nature or armor t9s like Elude.

That's not to say that I don't understand people being unhappy with the change. It never feels good to get nerfed, but I think the change makes sense.

Edited March 20, 2021 by Wavicle

[KingofMonkeys]

Just gotta say I am really going to miss shooting the fast flying cowards with my snipe while im dealing with the rest of the baddies in range.

[Wavicle]

As long as the +Range buff granted BY sniper attacks on Blasters is intact, it'll be ok.

[Jacke]

18 hours ago, Linea said:

Even being mezzed for a short duration is essentially an insta-kill on squishies, and for that matter many non-squishies.   That stun that finally punches through the tanks protection, drops the tank almost instantly.   A measly 50 dps incoming in a capped out tank that gets stunned can instantly turn into 2500 or even 5000 dps.  Oops, you're dead in half a second.  (I use Rune/Hybrid/Rune on those armors, particularly resist armors, in high-mez situations.  It totally sucks when your tank gets stunned.   As a side note, I'd totally be in favor of doubling resist armors status protection for this very reason)

 

A standard rotation is: Rune/Hybrid/Rune/30s   gap.   That gap is negligible in normal content as it can be spread out while moving between mobs, and most fights don't last 5+m

Revised Rotation is:  Rune/Hybrid/30s gap/Rune/30s gap/Hybrid/Rune/60s gap/Hybrid.  Many more gaps, and a maximum on-time of 3m instead of 5m. 

 

While my Time/ will be less effected due to both higher recharge and the ability to do an alternate Force of Nature build, pretty much all the other squishy builds will be significantly negatively impacted.

 

I'm with @Linea here.  I've known him a long time and his theory and practice of toon building and running is excellent.

 

Mez in City is just bad.  Some ATs don't have to worry about it.  Some of it you just can easily adapt to.  I'm running a Claws/Dark Armor Scrapper without KB protection and with the right play don't even mind it as it helps "tactically redeploy" me around the current combat area. 🙂

 

But the harsh binary of Mez means that it kills toons.  Mez should have been a small number of scaling effects.  Not a binary that can either be ignored or kills.

 

The nerf to Rune will hurt, but I'll still be taking Sorcery on a lot of my toons.  Some only take Mystic Flight, flying and teleportation combined.

 

Others go Mystic Flight + Spirit Ward + Rune of Protection.  Spirit Ward isn't completely useless (duration is too low) as Spirit Ward can mule the Preventive Medicine special IO, which is a powerful survival tool that doesn't need the power to be used and the L20 IO is good exemped down to L17.

 

And even with the nerfed duration, Rune is still a strong protective power especially for non-melee toons.

 

Sometimes Controllers swap MF or SW for Arcane Bolt to get another attack.

 

With only one Origin Pool (out of only 4 Pools) allowed in a build, it's going to be Sorcery.  The other Origin Pools are just not as good.  I've looked at them and I'm yet to see enough to make me pass up Sorcery.

 

I find the hardest limit on virtually all my builds along with the 24 power choices and the 67 extra slots is the 4 Power Pool limit.  It makes every choice vital.  Some melee toons don't even have a travel or Origin Pool and make due with P2W travel powers.  But if there is room, it's almost always going to be Sorcery.  After Page 2 goes live, I may take a look at the other Pools again and see if I can make a toon with them work for me.  But most will likely stay with either Sorcery or none.

Edited March 20, 2021 by Jacke

[CaptainLupis]

1 hour ago, Jacke said:

 

I'm with @Linea here.  I've known him a long time and his theory and practice of toon building and running is excellent.

 

Mez in City is just bad.  Some ATs don't have to worry about it.  Some of it you just can easily adapt to.  I'm running a Claws/Dark Armor Scrapper without KB protection and with the right play don't even mind it as it helps "tactically redeploy" me around the current combat area. 🙂

 

But the harsh binary of Mez means that it kills toons.  Mez should have been a small number of scaling effects.  Not a binary that can either be ignored or kills.

 

The nerf to Rune will hurt, but I'll still be taking Sorcery on a lot of my toons.  Some only take Mystic Flight, flying and teleportation combined.

 

Others go Mystic Flight + Spirit Ward + Rune of Protection.  Spirit Ward isn't completely useless (duration is too low) as Spirit Ward can mule the Preventive Medicine special IO, which is a powerful survival tool that doesn't need the power to be used and the L20 IO is good exemped down to L17.

 

And even with the nerfed duration, Rune is still a strong protective power especially for non-melee toons.

 

Sometimes Controllers swap MF or SW for Arcane Bolt to get another attack.

 

With only one Origin Pool (out of only 4 Pools) allowed in a build, it's going to be Sorcery.  The other Origin Pools are just not as good.  I've looked at them and I'm yet to see enough to make me pass up Sorcery.

 

I find the hardest limit on virtually all my builds along with the 24 power choices and the 67 extra slots is the 4 Power Pool limit.  It makes every choice vital.  Some melee toons don't even have a travel or Origin Pool and make due with P2W travel powers.  But if there is room, it's almost always going to be Sorcery.  After Page 2 goes live, I may take a look at the other Pools again and see if I can make a toon with them work for me.  But most will likely stay with either Sorcery or none.

It's funny to think we are struggling to fit in a travel pool these days, with the pool limit, when we actually used to have to fit one plus the fitness pool from the allowed pools. And my main back then had SS and fly! I have no idea how I managed that.

 

And on spirit ward, it is useful, if not exactly thematic, if you are a grav controller, especially if you are one without a +regen power. You can't heal your singularity, but can stick the absorb on it.

[CaptainLupis]

2 hours ago, Wavicle said:

As long as the +Range buff granted BY sniper attacks on Blasters is intact, it'll be ok.

It does still give the +50% range on test. Well it does on my fire blaster at least.

[arcane]

13 hours ago, ScarySai said:

I might be inclined to agree if the rest of the sorcery set wasn't so underwhelming, practically speaking, rune was the only selling point the set had going for it. In it's current state, I simply cannot justify taking it.

 

I wouldn't call rune overtuned by any stretch, if anything it was perfect as it was, it was different, but hardly meta shaping.

On the contrary, I find Sorcery to be one of the few pools where you can pick three powers without any big time duds. Spirit Ward is a really good buff AND is a perfect Preventive Medicine mule if you have no interest in buffing. And ofc Mystic Flight is hardly bad. I’ve even heard Enflame can get proccy but I wish I only needed Mystic Flight to try it so I don’t have to invest in four powers.