Whip Melee, Because Whips are Cool

[Steampunkette]

Yeah, yeah... We keep coming back to it. Sue me! But this time I have a really interesting mechanical idea, 

 

Instead of trying to cram in Fire Blast powers or Psychic Sword Pets or something similar, how about we play with Mechanic Generation?

 

So. Obviously there are only 4 Whip Powers. 3 attacks and 1 Summon/Buff. Taunt/Placate/Provoke and Build Up each take up a slot, giving us 6 powers for a Melee Set.

 

So what if we used 7, 8, and 9 for new mechanics?

 

Tier 1: Corruption. Just take off the Ranged Component and give it the same range as Lash. Moderate Damage

Tier 2: Lash. Pretty much as is. High end of Moderate Damage.

Tier 3: Crack Whip. The set needs some kind of AoE at a decently low level. High end of Moderate Damage

Tier 4: Build Up. No big deal.

Tier 5: Thundercrack. Autopower. Generates 1 stack of Thundercrack every 6 Seconds. Maximum of 3. Using Corruption, Lash, or Crack Whip consumes 1 stack of Thundercrack to deal additional Minor Energy Damage and apply a 15% Damres Debuff.

Tier 6: Taunt/Provoke/Placate. Pretty standard, really, all things considered.

Tier 7: Strangle. Apply the Hell on Earth Animation, Moderate Targeted AoE damage with a short duration high magnitude Hold (Same duration as the Animation), give it the same range as Lash. High Damage (Primary Target) Moderate Damage AoE.

Tier 8: Razorwhip: Toggle. While active, all Whip Melee attacks deal a Minor Lethal Damage DoT.

Tier 9: Whip Mastery. Clickable power which generates 1 stack of "Whip Mastery". Consuming Whip Mastery causes Strangle to deal additional High Fire Damage and increase it's area by 10ft or Crack Whip to increase it's cone from 30 degrees to 90 degrees and deal additional High Fire Damage.  (Recharge Rate: Long. 20-30 seconds)

 

So you walk into a fight with 3 stacks of Thundercrack and have to choose whether to spend all the charges on Crack Whip (To deal that added damage to multiple targets) or burn one target with Corruption and/or Lash. And then during the fight you're either aware of whether you've got a Thundercrack coming so you can alter your positioning or you don't really care and you "waste" charges on low-health enemies.

 

Whip Mastery gives the player a choice between "t9 Attacks" by allowing them to either use a cone or a targeted AoE based on which one might be more valuable at the time. And a Cone with Thundercrack and Whip Mastery deals more damage, but it only hits 5 targets instead of 10 and targeting is a little harder.

 

With less active attacks, the Whip Melee character is more vulnerable to -Recharge Effects than other characters, but through Razorwhip gets a slightly higher base damage by direct power comparison. (Razorwhip's End Cost should be comparatively high. 0.52/sec seems appropriate to me. Maybe 0.36 

if 0.52 tests too costly)

 

You wind up with a melee set that has a longer reach, a handful of attacks, and a lot of cooldown management. It becomes far more vulnerable to -Recharge effects from enemies and other players, but it's slotting requirements are -significantly- curtailed... which in turn reduces it's slotting options.

 

For Stalkers, put Assassin's Strangle at Tier 4 and Build Up to Tier 5, then put Thundercrack at Tier 6 and Placate at Tier 7. 

 

Assassin's Strangle: Same animation as Strangle but with an Extreme DoT during the hold duration/animation when used from Hidden and no AoE whatsoever. Have Whip Mastery grant Assassin's Strangle it's AoE Damage Component.

[Incursion]

Get my inner richter belmont on. I like it. 

[Zeraphia]

I know I'm gonna get some serious criticism for this reply, but I do not like this idea. I think this was a fun concept at one point to explore, but honestly I'm more interested in other more unique powersets rather than set-adjacent such as these. That said, I do think this has interesting ideas, but overall lacks good ST melee "hard hitters."

[TemporalVileTerror]

I don't want to poo-poo the suggestion at all, and I would certainly accept a Whip Melee Set.

But I feel inclined to say that Melee Sets are still MASSIVELY outstripping all other Sets for representation.  Assault could use some love, and Control.  Both of those would make good spaces for a Whip Set to show up, I think.

 

But as far as Whips in Melee?  I like the idea behind Strangle!  Not sold on the name . . . but "Bondage" might be a little too on-the-nose.  In either event, I think it should be a high-mag Hold, but add an unresistable Immobilize for the same duration, just in case you hit a target who is "lol, nope" about being Held.

And regardless of which type of Set it is that Whips ultimately get some more use out of, I think something like @Steampunkette's "Strangle" should show up for sure.

[Herotu]

I watched a video by Statesman's Pal Jimmy where he describes one new animation (on a non-Homecoming server) as being made from two animations one on top of the other. Perhaps this could be a thing? Some kind of Cat-o-Tentacles™ perhaps?

 

 

 

 

™ Not ™.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Herotu

[Steampunkette]

4 hours ago, TemporalVileTerror said:

I don't want to poo-poo the suggestion at all, and I would certainly accept a Whip Melee Set.

But I feel inclined to say that Melee Sets are still MASSIVELY outstripping all other Sets for representation.  Assault could use some love, and Control.  Both of those would make good spaces for a Whip Set to show up, I think.

 

But as far as Whips in Melee?  I like the idea behind Strangle!  Not sold on the name . . . but "Bondage" might be a little too on-the-nose.  In either event, I think it should be a high-mag Hold, but add an unresistable Immobilize for the same duration, just in case you hit a target who is "lol, nope" about being Held.

And regardless of which type of Set it is that Whips ultimately get some more use out of, I think something like @Steampunkette's "Strangle" should show up for sure.

Totally fair.

 

It would also 100% work as a Blast or Assault set, depending on the amount of range added to the four attacks. And you wouldn't even have to change the other powers.

 

You -would- need to swap out the Provoke/Placate/Taunt for another power which modifies at least two of the four attacks... could make it turn Corruption or Lash into Superior Damage?

 

[Alchemystic]

I'm with @TemporalVileTerror on this one. I'd love to see the current whip powers worked worked Assault or Manipulation set first, since that's going to be easier to work with (I played with this over in the EFPR thread). But I'm in favor of a whip melee powerset all the same.

[Herotu]

15 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

Totally fair.

 

It would also 100% work as a Blast or Assault set, depending on the amount of range added to the four attacks. And you wouldn't even have to change the other powers.

 

You -would- need to swap out the Provoke/Placate/Taunt for another power which modifies at least two of the four attacks... could make it turn Corruption or Lash into Superior Damage?

 

Oh... interesting...

 

So to have whips be ranged instead of melee, and instead of the whip being of a set length, you'd have it be a blast effect instead? Like the whip IS the raycast line (but art it up to look whippy?) - sounds like in interesting notion!

[Steampunkette]

5 hours ago, Herotu said:

Oh... interesting...

 

So to have whips be ranged instead of melee, and instead of the whip being of a set length, you'd have it be a blast effect instead? Like the whip IS the raycast line (but art it up to look whippy?) - sounds like in interesting notion!

Sort of. Have you used the Corruption power on Masterminds? It sends out a little fire-ball from the tip of the whip.

 

Just add that to Lash.

 

And then have Crack Whip fire off a bunch of individually targeted little fire-balls like the Peacebringer's Cone.

[Narfu12]

Well you know the saying. 'Where there's a whip, there's a way.'

[TemporalVileTerror]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljEzSRQn4eM

[Steampunkette]

On 3/18/2021 at 11:13 PM, Narfu12 said:

Well you know the saying. 'Where there's a whip, there's a way.'

 

9 hours ago, TemporalVileTerror said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljEzSRQn4eM

There's always a way where there's a Whip!

 

But yeah. Make it a Ranged Set. Or an Assault Set. Make it all three, honestly, to make it available to literally every archetype except Mastermind and Controller.

 

I'd be 100% down for that.

[TemporalVileTerror]

Wait . . . why not Controller?

[Steampunkette]

5 minutes ago, TemporalVileTerror said:

Wait . . . why not Controller?

They don't have an Assault, Ranged, or Melee primary or secondary. Neither does MM.

 

Every other archetype does.

 

Well... I guess not the Epics like PB/AS. But everyone else.

 

Ranged: Blaster, Sentinel, Corruptor, Defender.

Melee: Scrapper, Stalker, Tanker, Brute.

Assault: Dominator.

 

9 of the 11 current "Base ATs" would get access to this Whip Powerset. (And MMs would still have Demon Summoning)

[TemporalVileTerror]

Ah.

I was considering the possibility of also examining a Whip Control Set.  That one would obviously be a little more challenging in terms of delivering variety than an Assault Set with the limited animation package, but given the idea you start this thread with, I think that could be leveraged similarly.

ie:  There are only 4 Active Whip Powers, and the other 5 Powers augment those Powers in different ways.  And then see about reskinning the textures for Entangle and the like to given a magical-ropey appearance.

[Greycat]

While looking for something else, I ran across this snippet I saved (probably from live conversations on the same topic.)

Quote

 

Closed beta comments on whips:

Castle (responding to a "Now we can get whips for brutes/stalkers/scrappers" comment)

Quote

Unlikely. The amount of time and resources needed to get those three powers up and running was exorbitant. I really wish otherwise, because I really want to make an Indiana Jones homage, and Demons don't really match that theme!

 

Quote

I could probably get the animations for 2-3 other powersets in the same amount of time it takes to make 1 power for whips.

]

Quote

 

Like Castle, I saw the effort first hand of what it took to make these animations. Then I saw the follow up effort(s) to get them in game. They look awesome, but Castle's right. The effort to get these to where they are today was monumental.

Synapse

 

 

 

Yeah, I know, "that dev team is not this dev team," but this dev team is also volunteer and doesn't have the tools - and I can't imagine the animations and such (which seem to be the *big* timesink on this from these comments) would be any easier now.

 

(Not really for or against - like I said, searching for something else and ran across this.)

[TemporalVileTerror]

Which is why we're advocating their introduction in to the game with the existing animations, and thus the limited/unique way the Power Set suggestions work.

[Steampunkette]

6 hours ago, Greycat said:

While looking for something else, I ran across this snippet I saved (probably from live conversations on the same topic.)

 

Yeah, I know, "that dev team is not this dev team," but this dev team is also volunteer and doesn't have the tools - and I can't imagine the animations and such (which seem to be the *big* timesink on this from these comments) would be any easier now.

 

(Not really for or against - like I said, searching for something else and ran across this.)

Those are really good reasons against making a bunch of new whip powers, for -sure-!

 

Which is why I suggested we make precisely 0 new Whip Attacks and instead make a series of buff-powers that apply to the 4 Whip Powers that exist in the game currently.

 

So instead of a new cool whip animation, we get a build up like click that makes all whip powers do a double-hit. Or add a Bleed/Burn DoT. Or increase target caps or something similar.

[honoroit]

Sounds fun, I think one of the crazy private servers did some kind of a whip set. Don't remember, the one where there's absolutely no balance at all. 

 

Back in live days, didn't they say it'd be hard to implement for some reason? Think I remember that... 

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

Just rezzing this one because people have been talking about it on Excel, and because I want my Selina Kyle toon, dammit.

(Y'all can do the one with the guy named after the dog.)

 

I have slightly different ideas for the high end powers, mind. All re-use existing animations where possible.

The signature power and its two chained powers would be a little tricky to code, I admit... but definitely built for fun.

 

Tier 1: Stinger (Corruption). Short ranged power, high end of Light damage, fast recharge.

Tier 2: Crack Whip. The set needs some kind of AoE at a decently low level. High end of Moderate Damage.

Tier 3: Lash. Pretty much as is.

(Stalkers swap this with Assassin's Garrotte, which uses a point blank Hell On Earth animation coupled with choke emote on target, followed by a Rib Cracker finishing blow from Street Justice.)

Tier 4: Build Up.

 

...now here's where we get dangerous....

 

Tier 5: Stringer: a signature, short-ranged, high-Mag Hold, using the Hell On Earth Animation, for Moderate DoT.

A successful hit activates tier 7 and 9 while your Hold Duration is active, but you cannot use any other powers in this set until the Hold expires.

(Or if the devs want to be REALLY mean at the expense of giving themselves more work, any other Ranged, Melee or PBAoE powers.)

Tier 6: Taunt/Provoke

Tier 7: Slinger: yank your Held opponent directly towards you (GET OVER HERE!) onto a Knee Cracker animation, causing two Moderate smashing damage hits and knocking them down. Cancels your Hold.

Tier 8: Cobra Strike: Sniper-styled but short-ranged interruptible strike, dealing Extreme single target damage and low chance to Stun as an alpha, or High damage when used in main battle (yellow ring). Animation is basically Crack Whip again, possibly with a little crouch to build up.

Tier 9: Swinger: catapult yourself towards your Held opponent, planting your foot in the nearest available part of their anatomy (Jump Kick animation), causing High damage and knockdown, with a chance of Minor damage and knockdown to those around them. Basically Savage Leap crossed with Shield Charge. Cancels your Hold.

[LemonBars]

How about Whips as a Pool Powerset instead? Add it to whatever AT you want. Just 4 or 5 powers such as 1) a trip them with the whip knockdown power, 2) a whip upside the head stun, 3) a single target lash attack and and 4) an AoE attack lash attack. The fifth power could be a rez, lash a fallen player like, "Get back in the fight you lazy dog!" 

[Saiyajinzoningen]

5 hours ago, LemonBars said:

How about Whips as a Pool Powerset instead? Add it to whatever AT you want. Just 4 or 5 powers such as 1) a trip them with the whip knockdown power, 2) a whip upside the head stun, 3) a single target lash attack and and 4) an AoE attack lash attack. The fifth power could be a rez, lash a fallen player like, "Get back in the fight you lazy dog!" 

I was gonna suggest this but now all i got is replacing the breath or fire/Breath of ice /Toxic breath long animations powers that aren't worth the DPS with cone whip abilities instead. Call it animation diversification LOL