A modest proposal - Eliminate Sameness by removing the ability to Softcap. (Long)

[golstat2003]

2 hours ago, Leogunner said:

Wasn't Arcanaville also putting out commentary on how the system likely needed to be adjusted because of its binary effect?  Basically, Arcana was putting out the point that def was, cumulatively, too strong compared to resistance.

 

Basically, a lesson not learned...

 

More like the devs at the time didn't care . . . since they had a specific vision for the game. We can agree or disagree but it was their game, their vision. Not Arcanaville or any other players.

 

That vision is "casual superhero game you can pick up and play with ease at any time."

 

Not Demon Souls in a Super Hero skin.

Edited March 27, 2021 by golstat2003

[golstat2003]

16 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

You know, all I want is for people that defend the status quo to admit their game has a baby system with baby mechanics that don't really have much challenge behind it besides lining up the right stats that are overall abundant in the games' setup.

 

I can abandon pie in the sky suggestions and Red Spot level brainstorming of changes to add nuance to the game...I'd just like the consensus at large to admit the best resistance available to oppose the player is annoyance.  Yeah, make the foes immune to damage.  Make them unseeable/untargetable. Let them tear through soft cap defenses but give them the constitution of a champaign flute.  With practically no AI, let the solution be just kiting the idiot game into oblivion or just out-stat the game.

 

Don't insult me by saying I don't want to put any effort into the game.  That's just ridiculous.  I put in more effort adapting with a moderate IO build or a leveling build than most that keep their SOs topped off simply because I actively DO nerf myself and the game is still easy.

 

People don't care. They are playing the game and having fun. That's all that matters really. 

 

If you're not having fun, there are options available.

 

And even other servers available.

 

/shrug

[Leogunner]

7 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

 

More like the devs at the time didn't care . . . since they had a specific vision for the game. We can agree or disagree but it was their game, their vision. Not Arcanaville or any other players.

 

That vision is "casual superhero game you can pick up and play with ease at any time."

 

Not Demon Souls in a Super Hero skin.

Let's not delude ourselves: no one is asking for Demon Souls.  We're asking for a team-based MMORPG.

[RunoKnows]

1 minute ago, Leogunner said:

Let's not delude ourselves: no one is asking for Demon Souls.  We're asking for a team-based MMORPG.

The only thing stopping you from forming teams with likeminded people is you

[golstat2003]

6 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Let's not delude ourselves: no one is asking for Demon Souls.  We're asking for a team-based MMORPG.

 

We have one. We've had one for over a decade. Hence why to this day the teaming aspect of this mmorpg is often lauded over most mmos to date.

 

I'll take the teaming here over FFXIV, WoW or anything else, any time of the day.

 

I can jump on at nearly any time of the day and get a quick team and go smash some heads, without worrying if me and my buddy are the same exact level or have the same exact missions. (And I'm referring to the failure aspect of the successor to this game, Champions Online, when I specifically call that out.)

 

That's pretty much COH.

 

EDIT: And has been shown in multiple threads over the last few days in Suggestions & Feedback AND General Discussions there are like minded people who you can team with if you choose to. Hell some of them have already started to form SGs.

Edited March 27, 2021 by golstat2003

[golstat2003]

To be clear for the 1000th time, I'm fine with more OPTIONAL difficulty options that make the game harder for those who want to play that way. Add all the bells and whistles to those new difficulty options. Keep the base game as is for the rest of us.

 

Also the devs should add in harder incarnate content and I'll even run with those that want that, when I'm in the mood for that.

 

EDIT: I'm not fine with massive changes that could potentially drive off a large part of HC's pop and waste months of valuable volunteer dev time.

 

This current thread for reference, is a great one of, what I'm referring to.

 

 

Edited March 27, 2021 by golstat2003

[nihilii]

3 hours ago, Greycat said:

... Had to comment on this, because this is just not how I recall those days. Granted, I didn't get *into* those discussions much, because just like now I don't particularly care, but Arcanaville and others seemed to be quite willing to publicly share their (fairly tedious seeming) testing, both in methodology and result, while trying to ferret out numbers and mechanics before the curtain was pulled back. It was quite the opposite of elitist.

I think you're just disagreeing with my definition of the word elitism. We are saying the same thing: one had to spend significant time (whether on the forums or elsewhere) to access information. It wasn't as neatly packaged with the devs giving us combat attributes and real numbers, and the resulting array of high-quality third party tools like CityOfData and Mids. The information was less accessible, which led to a much steeper learning curve.

[golstat2003]

8 minutes ago, nihilii said:

I think you're just disagreeing with my definition of the word elitism. We are saying the same thing: one had to spend significant time (whether on the forums or elsewhere) to access information. It wasn't as neatly packaged with the devs giving us combat attributes and real numbers, and the resulting array of high-quality third party tools like CityOfData and Mids. The information was less accessible, which led to a much steeper learning curve.

 

Pretty much. Folks forget that combat attributes and real numbers on the respec/build screen for example, were most certainly NOT always there.

[Leogunner]

14 minutes ago, RunoKnows said:

The only thing stopping you from forming teams with likeminded people is you

True.  And those like-minded people gravitate to things like FFXIV or even old-school MMOs like FFXI.

 

16 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

 

We have one. We've had one for over a decade. Hence why to this day the teaming aspect of this mmorpg is often lauded over most mmos to date.

The Quadnity of the game has always had a lopsided form to it which is part of the point I'm making.  You can quote me out of context but that hardly is going to win you the argument. I say we aren't asking for Dark Souls, more a team-oriented game.  I didn't say CoX isn't team oriented but it is certainly being pushed toward solo.  I'm not even against that since old games like this usually have to find a means of working with less of a fan-base.  But the solo game is actually getting MORE EASY rather than making due.

 

The higher difficulty settings should be just that: high difficulty.

 

Lastly, I don't need you to be clear with me for the 1000th time lol.  No idea why you'd even feel the need to appeal to me.  The best you've got to push to me is "hold yourself back" and I've done that in a variety of ways.  CoX is merely a nostalgia trip and I'm cool with that but don't try and gaslight me into pretending the flaws aren't there.

[Naraka]

59 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

 

People don't care. They are playing the game and having fun. That's all that matters really. 

 

If you're not having fun, there are options available.

 

And even other servers available.

 

/shrug

I'm actually curious: how many of you are actually playing on multiple CoX servers?

 

From what I've heard, the communities are quite divided. I just feel that appealing to multi-server argument is less benefiting your perspective and moreso dismissing the argument similar to the "well why not make your own server" arguing point.

[RunoKnows]

17 minutes ago, Naraka said:

I'm actually curious: how many of you are actually playing on multiple CoX servers?

 

From what I've heard, the communities are quite divided. I just feel that appealing to multi-server argument is less benefiting your perspective and moreso dismissing the argument similar to the "well why not make your own server" arguing point.

Or people are saying that a sweeping, unnecessary and ridiculous change like this would legitimately drive them to play on other servers. Divisive communities or not, something tells me that obliterating a ton of people's characters for zero reason and to no benefit whatsoever might just be enough to cause people to drift away or even quit outright

[PhoenixV117]

Just figure out how to add a +5 problem solved (90% anyway)

[Haijinx]

5 hours ago, Leogunner said:

You know, all I want is for people that defend the status quo to admit their game has a baby system with baby mechanics that don't really have much challenge behind it besides lining up the right stats that are overall abundant in the games' setup.

 

QFT

[Haijinx]

4 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

To be clear for the 1000th time, 

 

 

Being an eternal Flaming Guardian requires tireless vigilance.

 

Its hard work dude. 

 

Good news though.  No one is going to change the main game or whatever it is y'all are defending.

 

The OPs suggestion was dead before they even typed it.   But perhaps it might be worthwhile to try and glean why they wanted to.

[Haijinx]

3 hours ago, RunoKnows said:

Or people are saying that a sweeping, unnecessary and ridiculous change like this would legitimately drive them to play on other servers. Divisive communities or not, something tells me that obliterating a ton of people's characters for zero reason and to no benefit whatsoever might just be enough to cause people to drift away or even quit outright

Damned if you do.

 

Damned if you don't.

 

People are already leaving.  But there's nothing they can do about it.   

 

Arguably, switching course towards a more challenging game NOW would be too late to catch those who left over that.  

[RogueWolf]

Wow cool. Another thread started by someone who thinks that the game is too damn easy and thus teams become boring. I like this trend.

 

One funny thing that sticks out is that people keep saying this creates a challenge, or makes the game hard. No... it makes the game not so ridiculously easy to the point where anyone can steamroll any given mission at +4x8. That was fun when we were only here for the nostalgia. But when that wears off, we don't want to see people leaving again like they were in 07. A notoriety setting to better balance the team would set a tone for players who actually want everyone to play the game. It will let everyone feel they are working together instead of following behind while 2-3 of y'all kill everything in front of you. And for those of you who only want to farm for maximum rewards in the minimal effort and time... play on with your OP builds. Knock yourselves out.

 

Personally I would not set this option for ITFs or Incarnate content or AV missions, or probably not even for Malta or Vanguard. IOs still have a purpose. But please do something to make us not get bored with radio missions and TFs so fast for those of us who level up the old school way.

[Doomguide2005]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

 

The OPs suggestion was dead before they even typed it.   But perhaps it might be worthwhile to try and glean why they wanted to.

     It was dead because it's a vague and meandering mix of several thoughts, some contradictory to each other such as altering the purple patch to make it stronger while simultaneously pointing out how buffs and debuffs no longer matter because stuff dies too quick which somehow boils down to everyone is the same boring equalness which is due to the softcap existing.  If I even sort of followed the OP's OP.

 

     So yes many of us remember the challenge of getting to those far away Hollows mission doors, getting lost at night in Perez Park, getting hammered by stepping out of a mission door to get ambushed by DE or using that lvl 14 travel power choice to arrive at your level 43 PI mission door and find yourself staring at the level 50 Nemesis all turning in your direction.  And want some small portion of that overall difficulty to return to when shadow cysts were scary and beating Frostfire was a team challenge and your everyday random PuG could not utterly faceroll +4/×8 most anything including Council. 

     The game has gone from 'never that hard' to 'way too easy" for many vets.  At least way too easy when and if we go looking for a team oriented challenge particularly without engaging in what's been called self nerfing.  In particular this is true at the Incarnate level.

     I don't think there are any easy changes there that can be made by the HC volunteer staff (but I'm neither a coder/designer nor in the loop on what the HC staff can do).  Nerfs, especially larger, blunt instrument, easy ones are unlikely to work and be unpopular as hell.  Ideas that might gain widespread traction are likely aimed at rewards (more for 'harder' foes) and taking advantage of AE designs by the player base to increase diversity in the high end content.  And neither of those are likely as easy to do as to say I'm betting.

[Naraka]

7 hours ago, RunoKnows said:

Or people are saying that a sweeping, unnecessary and ridiculous change like this would legitimately drive them to play on other servers. Divisive communities or not, something tells me that obliterating a ton of people's characters for zero reason and to no benefit whatsoever might just be enough to cause people to drift away or even quit outright

Well there, your either straw manning me or the argument. No one is talking about eliminating people characters. It's closer to a hypothetical about targeting a perceived issue. I understand the will to counter with a moralistic rebuttal but it makes me sick listening to people whine like that but it's literally your go-to response.

[Coyotedancer]

9 hours ago, Leogunner said:

You know, all I want is for people that defend the status quo to admit their game has a baby system with baby mechanics that don't really have much challenge behind it besides lining up the right stats that are overall abundant in the games' setup.

 

Okay... The City is a relatively mechanically simple easy-mode baby-game for dirty casuals who just like to smash things for fun. It was made to be accessible, not difficult.

 

It's not a Korean-style grinder, a twitch-reflex PvP-fest or a masochistic death march where every enemy is a gimmick-heavy boss fight you'll spend a week of endless deaths trying to beat. If you want that kind of game-play, you're just not going to find it here. I think we all know that by now. City of Heroes was never intended to be City of Dark Souls.

[Leogunner]

2 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

Okay... The City is a relatively mechanically simple easy-mode baby-game for dirty casuals who just like to smash things for fun. It was made to be accessible, not difficult.

 

It's not a Korean-style grinder, a twitch-reflex PvP-fest or a masochistic death march where every enemy is a gimmick-heavy boss fight you'll spend a week of endless deaths trying to beat. If you want that kind of game-play, you're just not going to find it here. I think we all know that by now. City of Heroes was never intended to be City of Dark Souls.

Nope, I don't want to hear you proclaim what it was "made to be".  That's purely your own assumption because I'd assume the game meant for powersets like Force Field and debuffs like Dark Miasma's -ToHit to serve a purpose and not join the various other antiquated mechanics in the realm of obsolescence.  And the reason I don't want to hear all that mess is because you're not going to touch on the power creep and over-convenience that removes much of the community aspects and charm of the original game either.  If you're not going to go the full mile, no need to paint your agenda.  Just the first sentence would suffice.

[Apparition]

2 hours ago, RogueWolf said:

Personally I would not set this option for ITFs or Incarnate content or AV missions, or probably not even for Malta or Vanguard. IOs still have a purpose. But please do something to make us not get bored with radio missions and TFs so fast for those of us who level up the old school way.

 

Radio missions are inherently boring.  It's their very nature.  That's why I never run them.  Then players make radio missions even more dull by only doing Council radio missions, and wonder why the game is so easy.

[Coyotedancer]

Just now, Leogunner said:

Nope, I don't want to hear you proclaim what it was "made to be".  That's purely your own assumption because I'd assume the game meant for powersets like Force Field and debuffs like Dark Miasma's -ToHit to serve a purpose and not join the various other antiquated mechanics in the realm of obsolescence.  And the reason I don't want to hear all that mess is because you're not going to touch on the power creep and over-convenience that removes much of the community aspects and charm of the original game either.  If you're not going to go the full mile, no need to paint your agenda.  Just the first sentence would suffice.

 

And your opinion is only your own, Leo. Pot meet kettle and all that.

[Leogunner]

1 minute ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

And your opinion is only your own, Leo. Pot meet kettle and all that.

You didn't quite use that correctly.  Unless that was a jab at yourself.  I put forth my own assumption ironically because it starts bringing in other opinions which are irrelevant (or only tangentially related) to the thread.

[Coyotedancer]

Just now, Leogunner said:

You didn't quite use that correctly.  Unless that was a jab at yourself.  I put forth my own assumption ironically because it starts bringing in other opinions which are irrelevant (or only tangentially related) to the thread.

 

Different versions of the same old saying, I suspect. What I'm saying is that all any of us have here are opinions, one way or the other. Yours are no more gospel truth than mine, if you want to get right down to it. 

[Leogunner]

3 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

Different versions of the same old saying, I suspect. What I'm saying is that all any of us have here are opinions, one way or the other. Yours are no more gospel truth than mine, if you want to get right down to it. 

Well obviously.  That kind of gets closer to the crux here which is actually talking about the subject at hand (defense and its effects on builds): people want to speculate and discuss opinions on changes to it, not just the outrage or rage-quitting that'd be the result.  At the end of the day, I don't believe anyone is expecting a change to actually occur no more than we're expecting to put babies on the menu.