A modest proposal - Eliminate Sameness by removing the ability to Softcap. (Long)

[UltraAlt]

On 3/26/2021 at 2:45 AM, mechahamham said:

If you've got a better idea for reintroducing risk into the game or eliminating the sameness and monotony that is damaging our high-end game, please let me hear about it.

 

Make an Alt and play the game instead of the end-game.

[Crysis]

On 3/26/2021 at 7:00 AM, parabola said:

What's the difference between a hard no vote and a no vote? Does it count for more? Could it be countered with a rock hard yes vote? Perhaps the Mohs scale could be employed?

 

(Apologies, I'm clearly in an odd mood today)

Viagra obviously.

[Alchemystic]

22 hours ago, Voltak said:

Don't come here asking to nullify or nerf the gear

Spend your time and energy asking for challenges in the game to meet a new power level that was earned or achieved as was intended to do so

 

So... your way of responding to suggestions you deem would 'control other players' is to try and control what those players should put up on the suggestions forums?

 

A very curious position to take. 🤔

 

Edited March 30, 2021 by Tyrannical

[Haijinx]

4 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

 

So... your way of responding to suggestions you deem would 'control other players' is to try and control what those players should put up on the suggestions forums?

 

A very curious position to take. 🤔

 

At least its honest.

 

I get the distinct impression he's not the only one   

[Alchemystic]

Just now, Haijinx said:

At least its honest.

 

I get the distinct impression he's not the only one   

 

Don't get me wrong, I can't support the idea put forward in the thread.

 

But I do support their right to put it forward all the same.

[MsSmart]

Sweetie:

 

    I love change and specially challenge, that is what makes the game tick and stay exciting.

 

    That said, as a player, who has level 50s that are fully IOd and T4'd across all classes, I can tell you that challenge is hardly uniform, and the vast majority of the challenge in any mission or TF is aimed at the support folks and not at the melee type characters.

 

    I often see players, who mostly play melee (for obvious reasons), want more challenge, and frankly I can't blame them. But what I seldom, if ever see, are changes that focuses on the melee character (whoa re crying for challenge) and leaves the already abused support types alone for a change.

 

    Your suggestion while benign at first glance, would really have a much greater burden on the support types, and thus I truly can't support your suggestion.

 

     I also fail to see all the character's are the same argument, do you realize how hard it is for support to IO to get decent defenses, and resistances are out of the question, and thanks to incarnate powers such as clarion, the mob "I win" button (spammed status effects) has finally been neutralized. These are some of the things that melee builds do not have to worry about, it comes natural (given) to their builds, even the IOs place in the first few sets of them (first 3) all the melee could want, while it is the last 3 usually the 6th that gives the support what they needed. Perhaps you could further describe, what is the all look the same?

 

hugs

 

Sue

[Voltak]

On 3/30/2021 at 4:29 AM, parabola said:

Yes indeed. I've certainly become massively disillusioned with these arguments as it seems obvious to me that they are heavily influenced by broader views and we are never all going to agree. Both sides are utterly convinced they are right. Both sides mystified by the others refusal to see what is obvious to them. And both sides essentially feeling the other is being selfish; one side feeling the other refuse to accept any sacrifice for the good of all, and the other feeling they are being dictated to, to no good end. It all sounds so painfully and sadly familiar...

 

I want teaming to work better at higher levels. I feel there are systemic problems in the game that are creating problems with teaming at high levels. And I feel it would be in everyones interest to address those problems. But yes, I've pretty much given up.

I agree

There is certainly ONE side who refuses to accept the facts and sacrifice the idea posted in the OP by admitting the facts presented. 

Those facts are irrefutable. 

The correct way to approach this issue is doing what all other games, where gear and level progress are an integral part of the game, do.  

That is introduce new challenges without nerfing what was already earned and achieved by playing a long time or doing whatever you had to do to reach your level of performance, using the instruments provided by game design and purpose. 

Now it is time for new challenges to be added, without nerfs.  

Again, just like it's normally done across other games.   

And, sacrifice a little ego and accept the facts that already the game provides challenges to any build that we may consider "OP", and it is done by players, and there is content outside of AE which can certainly pose a challenge to defenses, or permanent domination and so on, and many times those challenges are avoided. 

There is absolutely no need to call for nerfs when way better options, normal options for these types of situations come up in games with such design. 

 

[Voltak]

17 hours ago, MsSmart said:

Sweetie:

 

    I love change and specially challenge, that is what makes the game tick and stay exciting.

 

    That said, as a player, who has level 50s that are fully IOd and T4'd across all classes, I can tell you that challenge is hardly uniform, and the vast majority of the challenge in any mission or TF is aimed at the support folks and not at the melee type characters.

 

    I often see players, who mostly play melee (for obvious reasons), want more challenge, and frankly I can't blame them. But what I seldom, if ever see, are changes that focuses on the melee character (whoa re crying for challenge) and leaves the already abused support types alone for a change.

 

    Your suggestion while benign at first glance, would really have a much greater burden on the support types, and thus I truly can't support your suggestion.

 

     I also fail to see all the character's are the same argument, do you realize how hard it is for support to IO to get decent defenses, and resistances are out of the question, and thanks to incarnate powers such as clarion, the mob "I win" button (spammed status effects) has finally been neutralized. These are some of the things that melee builds do not have to worry about, it comes natural (given) to their builds, even the IOs place in the first few sets of them (first 3) all the melee could want, while it is the last 3 usually the 6th that gives the support what they needed. Perhaps you could further describe, what is the all look the same?

 

hugs

 

Sue

  Thank you so very much for speaking on behalf of my empathy defender, and many other characters, because he still finds great challenges in the game, vastly more than melee characters and others. 

Edited March 31, 2021 by Voltak

[Parabola]

31 minutes ago, Voltak said:

There is certainly ONE side who refuses to accept the facts...

Those facts are irrefutable. 

The correct way...

I feel you've rather missed my point. I'm certainly not promoting this particular change as the necessary fix but I do believe a fix is necessary. In terms of the wider debate though I think we all need to be aware of the difference between opinions and facts and how our opinions are shaped by our wider preconceptions.

[Voltak]

6 minutes ago, parabola said:

I feel you've rather missed my point. I'm certainly not promoting this particular change as the necessary fix but I do believe a fix is necessary. In terms of the wider debate though I think we all need to be aware of the difference between opinions and facts and how our opinions are shaped by our wider preconceptions.

If you read the facts I wrote about, you will see those are not opinions, they are indeed facts - games adding more challenging content as players/gear grow as a whole, as intended, as designed, in every game where gear is an important or integral part of the game. 

The fact that AE already poses major challenges to any build with IOs 

Those, among the others I listed, are not opinions. 

Those are facts. 

[GM Kaiju]

Several posts have been removed. Keep it civil, constructive, and on topic folks.

[Naraka]

5 hours ago, Voltak said:

If you read the facts I wrote about, you will see those are not opinions, they are indeed facts - games adding more challenging content as players/gear grow as a whole, as intended, as designed, in every game where gear is an important or integral part of the game. 

The fact that AE already poses major challenges to any build with IOs 

Those, among the others I listed, are not opinions. 

Those are facts. 

Those games often don't have mitigation caps reached by their gear alone, tho. It's how they can add new gear later to further buff them or add more levels to continue to get more effective.

 

Messing with our own systems using level shifts or the purple patch are extremely clunky and affect different builds/ATs disproportionally.

[Doomguide2005]

58 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Those games often don't have mitigation caps reached by their gear alone, tho. It's how they can add new gear later to further buff them or add more levels to continue to get more effective.

 

Messing with our own systems using level shifts or the purple patch are extremely clunky and affect different builds/ATs disproportionally.

     Well I think you're both right.  CoH is guilty of a lot of things.  One of those things was often trying things that in ways broke the then current mold such as making teams of almost any mix of ATs work, a break from the common trinity arrangement.

     And until sunset caught both them and us with its unexpected suddenness they were working on new challenges (and new gear for those challenges) for the player base --> more Incarnate material, the unknown foe the Battalion and I'm sure other things that might have only yet existed on a napkin in their breakroom.

    The OP's idea is pretty much a non-starter because, among other things, it's highly vague and non-specific beyond a very basic 'remove the ability to softcap via IO sets' and therefore harder to even discuss.  Like which softcap are we trying to remove.  It's assumed they mean 45% ... but that simultaneously eliminates the I-cap which is also a 'soft' cap.  And the only reason those particular caps are named is they are common benchmarks.  There are numerous mobs which already alter the 'soft' cap with respect to themselves hence the term soft, it floats, it is not static or it would be a hard cap (which is much, much higher in actuality and varies by AT).  The first step if this is to be pursued and discussed further is to nail down a few more specifics. 

     Right now it's a no for me as much because of vagueness as anything.  And as well set bonuses already have a cap.  That's effectively what the Rule of Five is, as well as anything labeled 'unique' ... they're caps.

    

     

[dopeninja]

Changing soft caps won't fix a broken game. The only way to fix it is with a different game. Seriously a group of Defenders or Corrs with SO's can dominate anything in the game. This was pre IO's and Incarnate's. The rules of the game are bad and easily broken with the bare minimum the game offers.

[Apparition]

12 minutes ago, dopeninja said:

Changing soft caps won't fix a broken game. The only way to fix it is with a different game. Seriously a group of Defenders or Corrs with SO's can dominate anything in the game. This was pre IO's and Incarnate's. The rules of the game are bad and easily broken with the bare minimum the game offers.

Bingo.  I have no idea where this idea some people have that melee characters are gods and non-melee are second class came from.  Defenders, Corruptors, and Controllers are exponentially more powerful than melee and have been doing things in game pre-Incarnate abilities that melee PCs with Incarnate abilities can only dream of.

Edited March 31, 2021 by Apparition

[Voltak]

2 hours ago, Naraka said:

Those games often don't have mitigation caps reached by their gear alone, tho. It's how they can add new gear later to further buff them or add more levels to continue to get more effective.

 

Messing with our own systems using level shifts or the purple patch are extremely clunky and affect different builds/ATs disproportionally.

You are wrong if you think that only gear gets you mitigation caps. 

power choices are made.... to help get to the cap 

How many builds in COH don't take Weave or Maneuvers or something to help the IOs get them to reach a good sort of mitigation ?   

Oh, and yes, other games do have gear that provide some kind of mitigation specialty that you otherwise cannot get via power choices included

The answer again to the state of being "too easy"   is content content and more content, more challenging content, not nerfs, like other games do it normally. 


 

Edited March 31, 2021 by Voltak

[Voltak]

26 minutes ago, Apparition said:

Bingo.  I have no idea where this idea some people have that melee characters are gods and non-melee are second class came from.  Defenders, Corruptors, and Controllers are exponentially more powerful than melee and have been doing things in game pre-Incarnate abilities that melee PCs with Incarnate abilities can only dream of.

I have been saying this since the beginning. 

The challenges that players should face now is content. 

I just got done right now with another great SG/network run in AE.  

We did some very difficult content that without the support there, there was going to be massive wipeout, wipeouts of complete uber builds 

You know what held that task and made it possible ?  

The support characters with ZERO uber builds 

Two Defenders and one corrupter incredibly busy 

Now, did we have a strong challenge ?  Hell yeah we did 

Was anyone nerfed during the game play ?  

NO !! 

Is it necessary to nerf anything in IOs to get a challenge ?  
NO 

 

Edited March 31, 2021 by Voltak

[Naraka]

56 minutes ago, Voltak said:

You are wrong if you think that only gear gets you mitigation caps. 

power choices are made.... to help get to the cap 

How many builds in COH don't take Weave or Maneuvers or something to help the IOs get them to reach a good sort of mitigation ?   

Oh, and yes, other games do have gear that provide some kind of mitigation specialty that you otherwise cannot get via power choices included

The answer again to the state of being "too easy"   is content content and more content, more challenging content, not nerfs, like other games do it normally. 


 

Well duh. No one is claiming only IOs do it as the obvious allusion to "gear" is supposed to mean whatever mitigation the class can achieve on a permanent basis without outside assistance.

 

I know you know what I meant (we all know that "gear" doesn't exist in CoX) so not sure why this needs to be clarified.

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, Voltak said:

I have been saying this since the beginning. 

The challenges that players should face now is content. 

I just got done right now with another great SG/network run in AE.  

We did some very difficult content that without the support there, there was going to be massive wipeout, wipeouts of complete uber builds 

You know what held that task and made it possible ?  

The support characters with ZERO uber builds 

Two Defenders and one corrupter incredibly busy 

Now, did we have a strong challenge ?  Hell yeah we did 

Was anyone nerfed during the game play ?  

NO !! 

Is it necessary to nerf anything in IOs to get a challenge ?  
NO 

 

Would it have been accomplishable without IO def cap melees?

[MsSmart]

2 hours ago, Apparition said:

Bingo.  I have no idea where this idea some people have that melee characters are gods and non-melee are second class came from.  Defenders, Corruptors, and Controllers are exponentially more powerful than melee and have been doing things in game pre-Incarnate abilities that melee PCs with Incarnate abilities can only dream of.

I disagree with you to an extent, there is two forms of looking at a class; that is solo and in groups. While in groups the support types (get the name, support) do better, but the fact is they do most of the dying in a tough situation. Melee, lets be honest, I play them too, they have it made, playing them solo or in groups has nowhere the challenge support experience. That is why, I continuously ask for challenge to be balanced, and not at the great expense of support classes.

 

Sue

[Naraka]

28 minutes ago, MsSmart said:

I disagree with you to an extent, there is two forms of looking at a class; that is solo and in groups. While in groups the support types (get the name, support) do better, but the fact is they do most of the dying in a tough situation. Melee, lets be honest, I play them too, they have it made, playing them solo or in groups has nowhere the challenge support experience. That is why, I continuously ask for challenge to be balanced, and not at the great expense of support classes.

 

Sue

And the funny thing here is, if you continue along this path of thinking: if the cap wasn't as tight as it is and instead of being a 5% floor of being hit to maybe an 8% or 10% floor, the individuals likely to feel this more are the ones that sit in an ocean of foes (i.e. not support types). Sure, there are some support types that do sit in an ocean of foes but their form of mitigation often leans on misdirection (things like confuse, slows and damage debuffs, ect) which leans less on rolling dice but rather reducing the amount of dice.

 

Not only would it affect support less, but it will increase the desire for support from those melees... At least until they devise a build that permas their T9 or get rid of its crash or some other method.

 

Overall, I think the reason people really discuss these types of balance factors is because there's really very little space to grow, for individuals and for teams. It's why if a support set doesn't have some kind of offensive effects, the whole set suffers in the eye of the community... If the team isn't dying, the only real thing to add is killing faster.

[MsSmart]

2 minutes ago, Naraka said:

And the funny thing here is, if you continue along this path of thinking: if the cap wasn't as tight as it is and instead of being a 5% floor of being hit to maybe an 8% or 10% floor, the individuals likely to feel this more are the ones that sit in an ocean of foes (i.e. not support types). Sure, there are some support types that do sit in an ocean of foes but their form of mitigation often leans on misdirection (things like confuse, slows and damage debuffs, ect) which leans less on rolling dice but rather reducing the amount of dice.

 

Not only would it affect support less, but it will increase the desire for support from those melees... At least until they devise a build that permas their T9 or get rid of its crash or some other method.

 

Overall, I think the reason people really discuss these types of balance factors is because there's really very little space to grow, for individuals and for teams. It's why if a support set doesn't have some kind of offensive effects, the whole set suffers in the eye of the community... If the team isn't dying, the only real thing to add is killing faster.

You drop the caps that affects both, the support will drop like flies. I disagree that the melee would suffer the most, only when farming would they be within a tidal wave of mobs, and yes dropping the caps would be the end of the farmers. But the support types, are still subject of AOES, PBAOES, and the melee do not and can not keep all mobs taunted (I play a 5 slotted taunting tank and keeping the aggroe is really difficult), so the concept of the heroic melee in the middle of the storm is getting solely beat up, while the support are on the beach sipping a pina colada is not accurate. My observation is that universal "pseudo" nerfs, usually is heavy handed on the support types. That is why, I kewep suggesting for challenge aimed at melee, and not support.

[Naraka]

2 minutes ago, MsSmart said:

You drop the caps that affects both, the support will drop like flies. I disagree that the melee would suffer the most, only when farming would they be within a tidal wave of mobs, and yes dropping the caps would be the end of the farmers. But the support types, are still subject of AOES, PBAOES, and the melee do not and can not keep all mobs taunted (I play a 5 slotted taunting tank and keeping the aggroe is really difficult), so the concept of the heroic melee in the middle of the storm is getting solely beat up, while the support are on the beach sipping a pina colada is not accurate. My observation is that universal "pseudo" nerfs, usually is heavy handed on the support types. That is why, I kewep suggesting for challenge aimed at melee, and not support.

Farmers tend to saturate def and res, so fire farmers and s/l farms are still functional.

 

I think you exaggerate. I often play characters who don't sit at the soft cap but somehow my characters don't become vaporized like you predict. It's simply a matter of blending mitigation methods. You can have 0 def and walk out of some fights with nary a scratch by just utilizing KB. 

 

And I find it suspect that "melees are never in a tidal wave of enemies except in farms" but "support are subject to AoEs and PBAoEs". In the 2nd case, simple range can decrease the number you're subjected to. No squishy is helpless just because a melee can only taunt some of a group. 

 

Like I said before, a support is in the market of taking fewer dice rolls whether that's by debuffing/controlling or just not getting in the thick of things while the melees have fewer tricks to attempt the same sans a few specialty build. And if your squishies do get vaporized, try playing more blasters. It takes some practice but you can do it without soft cap 

[XaoGarrent]

On 3/26/2021 at 12:12 PM, Captain Citadel said:

This is satire, right? The title? Intentionally proposing suggestions that will draw the ire of most of the community?

 

Has a thread title containing something that is ironic or dissonant, bonus points if the OP doesn't seem to be aware of what they've done: ✔️

Doesn't address the biggest underlying problem with whatever they propose needs adjusting: ✔️

Hits an especially contentious player time investment (in this case, even for an MMO): ✔️

Preemptively invokes a much older change that was extremely hated, in order to try to poison the well for anyone that would draw comparisons to that change: ✔️

Ignores the fact there's multiple places in game where what they're suggesting is already sorta in place, and that everyone strictly ignores that content: ✔️

OP is clearly aware of multiple reasons why the suggestion will be deeply opposed. Posts it anyway, giving themselves the appearance of a troll who's baiting: ✔️

 

This definitively feels like bait. It's hard to tell for sure, but the title really makes me think it is.

[Voltak]

4 hours ago, Naraka said:

Well duh. No one is claiming only IOs do it as the obvious allusion to "gear" is supposed to mean whatever mitigation the class can achieve on a permanent basis without outside assistance.

 

I know you know what I meant (we all know that "gear" doesn't exist in CoX) so not sure why this needs to be clarified.

The statement specifically said -->

"Those games often don't have mitigation caps reached by their gear alone..." 

Gear in CoX is IOs.  IN fact it is the only gear you have 

Those IOs you placed in your powers and they get slotted

Sort of like you are wearing them, then. when you unslot them you don't "wear" them anymore

That is gear 



THat's what I mean by it. 


So, no, the statement I quote is wrong.  Power choices have to be made in order to reach that level