A note on Rune of Protection changes

[Ohsirus]

Wow, never knew RoP was this popular. I personally don't see the issue..a minute is a long time. 

[Wavicle]

15 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

 

That's pretty terrible to sacrifice 3 powers to get one power which leaves you wanting 70% of the time.  I'll pass on Sorcery and get the tried and true powers that'll cap my defenses thus avoiding mez 90% of the time thank you though.  

As Jimmy said, the other 2 powers being bad isn't really relevant. They need to be good, and if they aren't that's a separate problem.

[Wavicle]

14 minutes ago, BRADICAL said:

By non-viable, what I mean to say is that without RoP, any one of my Time/X defenders is going to have it much harder soloing even something simple like a fire farm set to +4/x8.

The game isn't remotely balanced for soloing 4/8 farms nor should it be.

[Faultline]

Caveat emptor: I'm not a powers dev. I am however involved in the dev discussions in the backend and want to address a few points that have been brought up.

 

"Why even ask for feedback if the change is set in stone?" Truth is that no change is set in stone and continues to be discussed internally up to release and sometimes after. While the posts may not be directly replied to in the forums, that is because players as a whole tend to take any dev word as an absolute promise that shall never be broken, so it's better to not say anything while internal discussion is going on. But the feedback is being read and used in the internal discussion to see where the change goes.

 

Something that may not be obvious is that the amount of feedback, in either direction, lets us know how much people care about a specific power. Realize that less than 5% of all characters have Rune at level 50; with Corruptors being the AT that takes it the most at 11%, and Brutes taking it the least at 1.7%. Compare to something like Afterburner, which was also modified this patch: 11% of all characters have it by level 50, with Blasters leading at 22% and Brutes in the back at 4% (Peacebringers are at 0.6% but we're ignoring them since they get inherent versions of it). So part of the reason why the Rune feedback was largely not acknowledged is that it was seen as a sidegrade (remember that it comes with a buff when used reactively) that affected a minority. So having many pages of feedback arguing about this one particular power lets us know that while it's only used by a minority, that minority is pretty serious about it, and we should handle it with more care.

 

Now, for my own subjective take. The entire Sorcery pool was born out of the intention to sell origin pools for real money back in 2012. It had a single publish to the Issue 24 beta back then, and it has been completely (to my knowledge) untouched until now. The fact that one of the powers is something that squishies have been asking for a very long time (mez prot) is no coincidence; I am convinced that this was a deliberate decision in order to ensure the power pool sold well once it was put on the cash shop. The rest of the set is arguably subpar, but that one power was the set seller; those who spent real money for Rune were prepared to spend two weak power picks in order to unlock Rune.

 

We don't live in that reality anymore, selling power pools is not what we do. Sorcery is receiving a revision at this time because of the travel power revamp, and that's why the decision was made, now, to bring Rune in line where the power developers want a pool T5 to be; losing duration in exchange of keeping the buffs when used reactively, coupled with the buffs to Mystic Flight, was seen as OK for a power pool that is not that popular.

 

The power developers knew this wouldn't be received with super open arms, and there are plans to look at the rest of Sorcery to make it more well-rounded, but they believe this particular change is necessary to even be able to look at the other powers in Sorcery; as long as Rune stayed the way it was, the other Sorcery powers had to be there as gatekeepers. What those changes will be I can't say until they hit Brainstorm, for the reason stated above; I'm not even a powers dev, so I should definitely not be talking about future power changes that I'll be held onto for not implementing. But the message was received, and it's being processed.

[Mezmera]

10 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

As Jimmy said, the other 2 powers being bad isn't really relevant. They need to be good, and if they aren't that's a separate problem.

 

It's exactly relevant.  There's a cost/benefit analysis to taking Rune which is tied to having 2 more powers in that pool.   There's a cost/benefit analysis to every power you take and every IO you slot so by sheer mechanics of the game you should be weighing your options.   

[arthurh35353]

9 minutes ago, Faultline said:

The power developers knew this wouldn't be received with super open arms, and there are plans to look at the rest of Sorcery to make it more well-rounded, but they believe this particular change is necessary to even be able to look at the other powers in Sorcery; as long as Rune stayed the way it was, the other Sorcery powers had to be there as gatekeepers. What those changes will be I can't say until they hit Brainstorm, for the reason stated above; I'm not even a powers dev, so I should definitely not be talking about future power changes that I'll be held onto for not implementing. But the message was received, and it's being processed.

So, because people are no longer spending real money on this for the mez protection, it is being taken away in a meaningful manner?

 

Why are we still punishing squishies for not having mez protection? This has been pointed out that being stuck not able to do anything on the lower hit point ATs with their offensive "defending" toggles is pretty much a death sentence...

[Mezmera]

7 minutes ago, Faultline said:

Realize that less than 5% of all characters have Rune at level 50

 

And people are wondering why there's even an argument over a power being nerfed that it's so good it is being selected at a 5% clip.  

 

Thank you @Faultline for interjecting some more info! 

 

Most of those sticking up for RoP are doing so from an objective standard standpoint, not from where we take it on every single character we make.  

[StratoNexus]

4 hours ago, America's Angel said:

If the goal is for Rune to be used reactively, would any of these options be preferable to you vs what's currently on Brainstorm:

 

15s duration w/ 2.5 min recharge

30s duration w/5 min recharge

45s duration w/7.5 min recharge

45 seconds is interesting with a 7.5 minute recharge.

450 base recharge -  45 second duration

At 225 second recharge, uptime is 20% with a downtime of 185 seconds (vs lives 210 seconds).

At 150 second recharge, uptime is 30% with a downtime of 105 seconds (vs lives 110 seconds).

At 127 second recharge, uptime is 35% with a downtime of 82 seconds. (vs lives 80 seconds).

At 109 second recharge, uptime is 41% with a downtime of 64 seconds (vs lives 55 seconds).

 

The downtimes are very similar to live and my suggested 60 second duration with 480 second recharge (180, 110, 76, 56), but the overall uptime percentages match the 60 second duration with 600 second recharge and still keep it so that at max recharge it is only 50% uptime.

 

I think being able to use it to get out of a bad situation requires 45 seconds. 30 seconds is a bit short (while 30 is enough for most bad aggros, 45 seconds covers a lot more). That said, with those downtimes, I think you could just go with 60 seconds and 8 minutes, which lets it work better proactively, while still less well than the live version. 

Edited March 31, 2021 by StratoNexus

[CaptainLupis]

7 minutes ago, Faultline said:

Caveat emptor: I'm not a powers dev. I am however involved in the dev discussions in the backend and want to address a few points that have been brought up.

 

"Why even ask for feedback if the change is set in stone?" Truth is that no change is set in stone and continues to be discussed internally up to release and sometimes after. While the posts may not be directly replied to in the forums, that is because players as a whole tend to take any dev word as an absolute promise that shall never be broken, so it's better to not say anything while internal discussion is going on. But the feedback is being read and used in the internal discussion to see where the change goes.

 

Something that may not be obvious is that the amount of feedback, in either direction, lets us know how much people care about a specific power. Realize that less than 5% of all characters have Rune at level 50; with Corruptors being the AT that takes it the most at 11%, and Brutes taking it the least at 1.7%. Compare to something like Afterburner, which was also modified this patch: 11% of all characters have it by level 50, with Blasters leading at 22% and Brutes in the back at 4% (Peacebringers are at 0.6% but we're ignoring them since they get inherent versions of it). So part of the reason why the Rune feedback was largely not acknowledged is that it was seen as a sidegrade (remember that it comes with a buff when used reactively) that affected a minority. So having many pages of feedback arguing about this one particular power lets us know that while it's only used by a minority, that minority is pretty serious about it, and we should handle it with more care.

 

Now, for my own subjective take. The entire Sorcery pool was born out of the intention to sell origin pools for real money back in 2012. It had a single publish to the Issue 24 beta back then, and it has been completely (to my knowledge) untouched until now. The fact that one of the powers is something that squishies have been asking for a very long time (mez prot) is no coincidence; I am convinced that this was a deliberate decision in order to ensure the power pool sold well once it was put on the cash shop. The rest of the set is arguably subpar, but that one power was the set seller; those who spent real money for Rune were prepared to spend two weak power picks in order to unlock Rune.

 

We don't live in that reality anymore, selling power pools is not what we do. Sorcery is receiving a revision at this time because of the travel power revamp, and that's why the decision was made, now, to bring Rune in line where the power developers want a pool T5 to be; losing duration in exchange of keeping the buffs when used reactively, coupled with the buffs to Mystic Flight, was seen as OK for a power pool that is not that popular. The power developers knew this wouldn't be received with super open arms, and there are plans to look at the rest of Sorcery to make it more well-rounded, but they believe this particular change is necessary to even be able to look at the other powers in Sorcery; as long as Rune stayed the way it was, the other Sorcery powers had to be there as gatekeepers.

 

What those changes will be I can't say until they hit Brainstorm, for the reason stated above; I'm not even a powers dev, so I should definitely not be talking about future power changes that I'll be held onto for not implementing. But the message was received, and it's being processed.

The bolded section doesn't make sense to me. Why couldn't the other powers in sorcery be looked at before nerfing RoP? Surely it would have made more sense to do the nerf and boost the other powers at the same time, rather than leave the pool languishing until maybe getting around to looking at the other powers at some point in the future?

 

I'm genuinely struggling to find the logic for making a power less than 5% of all character have at level 50 even less appealing.

[Faultline]

4 minutes ago, CaptainLupis said:

The bolded section doesn't make sense to me. Why couldn't the other powers in sorcery be looked at before nerfing RoP? Surely it would have made more sense to do the nerf and boost the other powers at the same time, rather than leave the pool languishing until maybe getting around to looking at the other powers at some point in the future?

 

The other powers couldn't be looked at before nerfing ROP, because then you'd have the other powers updated without updating ROP and people would think ROP was fine as-is. They definitely could be looked at the same time, but because the set got an early update because of the travel part of it, the non-travel powers were left for after. Does that make sense?

[StratoNexus]

3 minutes ago, CaptainLupis said:

The bolded section doesn't make sense to me. Why couldn't the other powers in sorcery be looked at before nerfing RoP? Surely it would have made more sense to do the nerf and boost the other powers at the same time, rather than leave the pool languishing until maybe getting around to looking at the other powers at some point in the future?

Time? Adjusting RoP is something they have already examined in detail, especially with the other Tier 5s having the 60 second recharge, that lends itself to also already having a similar change out in live (sort of). Messing with the other powers in Sorcery requires time to examine the pool overall and brainstorm multiple ideas for how to adjust. Stuff I am sure they have thought about a little, but not enough to push the change to beta (unlike the RoP adjustment, which has already been iterated based on Unleash Potential and Adrenal Booster).

[CaptainLupis]

2 minutes ago, Faultline said:

 

The other powers couldn't be looked at before nerfing ROP, because then you'd have the other powers updated without updating ROP and people would think ROP was fine as-is. The definitely could be looked at the same time, but because the set got an early update because of the travel part of it, the non-travel powers were left for after. Does that make sense?

I suspect "looked at" means something different to you than it does to me, which is where the confusion came from. Looked at, to me, is not the same as implement. So it would be a case of seeing what changes to make to improve the other powers (the looked at part) then implement those at the same time as the nerf.

[Arbegla]

23 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

So, because people are no longer spending real money on this for the mez protection, it is being taken away in a meaningful manner?

 

Why are we still punishing squishies for not having mez protection? This has been pointed out that being stuck not able to do anything on the lower hit point ATs with their offensive "defending" toggles is pretty much a death sentence...

 

Except its not. Mez has been around since the beginning of the game, Squishies have been around since the beginning of the game. RoP wasn't even implemented in the live game (it was only released to the BETA server, not even the full Test server) and squishes have been doing just fine. A mez is not a death sentence.

 

And even if it was a death sentence, Death in City of heroes is insanely lenient, and self rez powers are abundant.

[CaptainLupis]

5 minutes ago, StratoNexus said:

Time? Adjusting RoP is something they have already examined in detail, especially with the other Tier 5s having the 60 second recharge, that lends itself to also already having a similar change out in live (sort of). Messing with the other powers in Sorcery requires time to examine the pool overall and brainstorm multiple ideas for how to adjust. Stuff I am sure they have thought about a little, but not enough to push the change to beta (unlike the RoP adjustment, which has already been iterated based on Unleash Potential and Adrenal Booster).

Oh I get that, I just don't see the need to rush through the nerf now, instead of waiting until the other power improvements are ready to implement, making an already underused set even less desireable until they do.

[Faultline]

5 minutes ago, CaptainLupis said:

I suspect "looked at" means something different to you than it does to me, which is where the confusion came from. Looked at, to me, is not the same as implement. So it would be a case of seeing what changes to make to improve the other powers (the looked at part) then implement those at the same time as the nerf.

 

We indeed mean different things; until a change makes it to a patch to the internal dev server for testing by devs, I haven't "looked at" it, because I am not a powers dev and just seeing the changes to attribmods in the data file is German to me (es tut mir leid, mein Deutsch ist schlecht).

[scottocamp]

7 minutes ago, Faultline said:

 

The other powers couldn't be looked at before nerfing ROP, because then you'd have the other powers updated without updating ROP and people would think ROP was fine as-is. They definitely could be looked at the same time, but because the set got an early update because of the travel part of it, the non-travel powers were left for after. Does that make sense?

 

The update to the travel power doesn't seem to require any immediate action be taken with RoP.  Wouldn't balancing the 4 non-travel Sorcery powers together be the best solution?  Reducing the effectiveness of RoP in conjunction with buffs to the 3 other Sorcery powers would at least keep the Sorcery Pool from becoming even less popular and even less relevant.

[Arbegla]

8 minutes ago, scottocamp said:

 

The update to the travel power doesn't seem to require any immediate action be taken with RoP.  Wouldn't balancing the 4 non-travel Sorcery powers together be the best solution?  Reducing the effectiveness of RoP in conjunction with buffs to the 3 other Sorcery powers would at least keep the Sorcery Pool from becoming even less popular and even less relevant.

 

While I can't talk about the workflow of programming for the Dev's here, I can talk about commercial grade programming workflow, and even with the best code base in the world, you don't want to change too many things at all. Incremental changes are always best, as you can break something in new and creative ways. They were already touching the travel powers (which covers Mystic Flight) and the change to RoP is simply reducing a duration value. If there is proper coding standards, that is a pretty simple change.

 

Now, rebalancing the other powers, (keep in mind, two of the powers within the Sorcery Pool affect Enemies and Allys, but in different ways) is a lot more work, and was definitely not planned as part of this change. We're going to get a free-spec when this hits live, and we'll get another one when/if the Sorcery Pool gets looked at again. Temporarily making a Origin Pool (that on average only 5% of players take) less popular isn't a big deal.

[ForeverLaxx]

Frankly, this all just smells of changing a power based on spreadsheet analysis and not on in-game function. On paper, perhaps the power itself might be "too strong", though I struggle to hold that opinion considering what players can do without it that makes them better than they ever were with the power. That's my problem with this change: it's changing something based on spreadsheet data and not practical usage.

 

When you can make a character more powerful, and do so much easier, by picking up the "standard meta" of Pool Powers to cap out your defenses and run around with around 200% recharge solo, and that is better than Rune will ever be under it's current Live numbers, how can you justify a nerf to it?

 

One single power being good, but difficult to leverage with clear trade-offs sounds like GOOD design to me. In a game where being a literal god is but a few IOs away, how is one difficult-to-leverage alternative even an issue?

[arthurh35353]

11 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

Except its not. Mez has been around since the beginning of the game, Squishies have been around since the beginning of the game. RoP wasn't even implemented in the live game (it was only released to the BETA server, not even the full Test server) and squishes have been doing just fine. A mez is not a death sentence.

 

And even if it was a death sentence, Death in City of heroes is insanely lenient, and self rez powers are abundant.

And some of us have been complaining about squishie non-mez issues for that whole time. Every other modded server seems to have some form of minor mezz protection for all ATs. Clunky, weird or just giving everyone AV triangles so you can only be held at most 1/2 the time.

 

I think one I checked out had made the amplifiers mutually exclusive toggles that everyone gets. I've advocated that epic armors (or Kheld's three base armors) get +4 hold/stun protection (and possibly a flavor protection like Dark getting +4 Fear, etc.)

 

That level of protection is not total immunity, it just not freezing at the first mob that glares at you hard and certainly isn't going to make you immune to whole teams of mezzing.

[Arbegla]

5 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

Frankly, this all just smells of changing a power based on spreadsheet analysis and not on in-game function. On paper, perhaps the power itself might be "too strong", though I struggle to hold that opinion considering what players can do without it that makes them better than they ever were with the power. That's my problem with this change: it's changing something based on spreadsheet data and not practical usage.

 

When you can make a character more powerful, and do so much easier, by picking up the "standard meta" of Pool Powers to cap out your defenses and run around with around 200% recharge solo, and that is better than Rune will ever be under it's current Live numbers, how can you justify a nerf to it?

 

One single power being good, but difficult to leverage with clear trade-offs sounds like GOOD design to me. In a game where being a literal god is but a few IOs away, how is one difficult-to-leverage alternative even an issue?

 

This is kinda a strawman argument. The power levels are fundamentally different. High recharge and high defense is not the same as active Mez Protection, which is what RoP grants you. In addition to 30% resistance base.

 

IOs can't give you that, it simply can not. There is no 'Mez Protection' IO, and no single bonus is going to give you 30% resistance to all damage types (the closest I can think of, is the Scaling Resistance IO, but that only goes to 10% resistance to all, and you have to near death for it to kick in that much). IOs also only provide Mez Resistance, not protection.

 

RoP fills a hole that NOTHING else available to ALL ATs fills. And it did it really really well. In the Devs eyes, it did it too well, so it got nerfed.

[Arbegla]

8 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

..it just not freezing at the first mob that glares at you hard and certainly isn't going to make you immune to whole teams of mezzing.

 

Mez isn't that constant, especially if you have high defense values. Also what difficulty are you running at? What is the game balanced around? Because if you're trying to complete missions at a higher difficulty then the game is balanced around, then that is on you, not RoP.

[Troo]

1 hour ago, BRADICAL said:

without RoP, any one of my Time/X defenders is going to have it much harder soloing even something simple like a fire farm set to +4/x8.

 

wait, wait.. just hold on there.

[Mezmera]

4 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

This is kinda a strawman argument. The power levels are fundamentally different. High recharge and high defense is not the same as active Mez Protection, which is what RoP grants you. In addition to 30% resistance base.

 

IOs can't give you that, it simply can not. There is no 'Mez Protection' IO, and no single bonus is going to give you 30% resistance to all damage types (the closest I can think of, is the Scaling Resistance IO, but that only goes to 10% resistance to all, and you have to near death for it to kick in that much). IOs also only provide Mez Resistance, not protection.

 

RoP fills a hole that NOTHING else available to ALL ATs fills. And it did it really really well. In the Devs eyes, it did it too well, so it got nerfed.

 

Um capped defenses means just about all mez attacks do not get through.  So your capped defenses are in essence acting as a quasi mez shield.  Just like regular attacks sometimes something gets through 5-10% of the time that mezzes you but that's a rare occasion you can mitigate.  

Edited March 31, 2021 by Mezmera

[CaptainLupis]

4 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

While I can't talk about the workflow of programming for the Dev's here, I can talk about commercial grade programming workflow, and even with the best code base in the world, you don't want to change too many things at all. Incremental changes are always best, as you can break something in new and creative ways. They were already touching the travel powers (which covers Mystic Flight) and the change to RoP is simply reducing a duration value. If there is proper coding standards, that is a pretty simple change.

 

Now, rebalancing the other powers, (keep in mind, two of the powers within the Sorcery Pool affect Enemies and Allys, but in different ways) is a lot more work, and was definitely not planned as part of this change. We're going to get a free-spec when this hits live, and we'll get another one when/if the Sorcery Pool gets looked at again. Temporarily making a Origin Pool (that on average only 5% of players take) less popular isn't a big deal.

Unless you are like me and hate the respec process. I have used an absolute fortunes worth of unslotters to avoid respecs wherever possible. How I wish there were a way to respec a single power, or even pool, rather than the entire respec you have to go through now. Unslotters for powers is what we need!

[ScarySai]

Appreciate the time taken to respond to this, @Faultline.

 

I believe a major part of the reaction was the vague explanation in most posts addressing Rune. While I understand that some people take what a dev says and runs with it, earlier transparency would have made this a much cleaner discussion and less of a firestorm.

 

Your clarification on the issue brings to light future intentions and stops imaginations from running wild, people are invested in their characters and probably don't want to be nervous about their favorites being gutted out of the blue, if they look at how Rune was handled before you stepped in to put out the fires.