Allow more pool selections

[Greycat]

There are times losing or lowering costs is a good thing. Having to hope your SG mates scrape together enough for your base builder to add a desk *and* chair? That's a cost that was decidedly limiting. Losing the need for Prestige to base build (on top of other changes between SCORE and here) was good - it really did allow creativity to practically explode in some instances.

 

Losing or lowering the cost of "do I take this power / use this pool" like this though? I'm less for it, and don't honestly buy the creativity argument. That has a direct impact on gameplay and the overall power / difficulty of the game. About the only way I'd go for this is if it opened up at 35 - with the cost of not taking a patron/ancillary pool.  Otherwise, people have been working around this for years, even on live, and if nothing else I'd say that's made them more creative... even when going for "theme." IOs also lend themselves to this, and the P2W vendor is just icing. Have a stealthy character you can't fit the pool in for? IOs in an extra free sprint will get there. Trying to fit in a travel power? Several free - though unslottable - options exist, as well as paid (and fairly long duration) temp powers - and so forth.

[Gobbledygook]

36 minutes ago, arcane said:

If you insist on picking up Hasten on every build, and:

 

- in one universe, that costs you a power slot and a couple of enhancement slots, and, 

 

- meanwhile, in another universe, that costs you a power slot, a couple of enhancement slots, AND the opportunity to pick another pool,

 

the latter set of challenges is objectively greater. You are confusing number of options with cost, and cost is what yields the challenge.

 

I don't. Thanks for assuming, though.

You know how the saying goes about that, makes an a-, well, you get it.

Especially when you do that about the ENTIRE player base.

[Alchemystic]

@5099y_74c05 what I was implying is that Thunderspy should be a cautionary tale about how testing is important.

[Apparition]

16 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

@5099y_74c05 what I was implying is that Thunderspy should be a cautionary tale about how testing is important.

 

 

What?  You don't think giving all Dual Blades attacks an additional toxic damage DoT component is a swell idea?!

[Sakura Tenshi]

If hasten and combat jumping weren’t things I’d suggest making travel pools (or rather one travel pool) not count towards the limit. But I’d also like it if (one) origin pool pick didn’t count towards the limits either for conceptual reasons.

 

But I also do understand some of the concerns others have, I feel like this is one of those issues best approaches after we do something about the game’s difficulty balances. Which, even if we had the live team working on things will admittedly be a long long time.

[Gobbledygook]

1 hour ago, Tyrannical said:

@5099y_74c05 what I was implying is that Thunderspy should be a cautionary tale about how testing is important.

As I tell my teenager, what you say matters.

Especially in a format where we can't pick up any cues fromy body movemont, inflection of your voice, or facial expression.

 

Take this case for example, you're not saying, let's test it and see how it effects things.

You're flat out saying no, this is why, there's no need to test because powergamers would abuse this, and make a game that is already easy because of power creep, IO's, Incarnate abilities possibly easier for a percentage of the playerbase, while blocking creativity for the rest of the playerbase. Like the roleplayers. On a roleplaying game.

No need to test it, I said so. Look what they did on Thunderspy. Even though I know that won't happen here because our devs DO put things on test and DO listen to player feedback, especially when provided evidence from folks such as Bopper and GalaxyBrain. 

 

[Gobbledygook]

2 hours ago, Greycat said:

About the only way I'd go for this is if it opened up at 35 - with the cost of not taking a patron/ancillary pool.

 

This.

This is perfectly acceptable.

[Alchemystic]

12 hours ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

In context of this cluster, talking about a change in design precludes us from later testing the idea how?

 

11 hours ago, Gobbledygook said:

Take this case for example, you're not saying, let's test it and see how it effects things.

You're flat out saying no, this is why, there's no need to test because powergamers would abuse this, and make a game that is already easy because of power creep, IO's, Incarnate abilities possibly easier for a percentage of the playerbase, while blocking creativity for the rest of the playerbase.

 

Consider the following; do you really think that a suggestion as frequent as this hasn't received some sort of preliminary testing already?

 

The scenario has played out dozens of times prior to this, and despite the popularity of the topic we've yet to see it gain any traction. It stands to reason that it has already been deliberated and tested internally and the HC team concluded that it's not something they're willing to explore further given the amount of resistance to the idea. 

 

The reason I draw comparison to Thunderspy is because testing to see if it works is different to testing to see if it's well received, and it seems you're more focused on the former. As I said, Homecoming has no inconsequential amount of feedback on this particular subject, and they use that to decide whether a project like this deserves further testing, so chalking this up to "blocking creativity" is just disingenuous.

 

I'd also like to point out that I never said no to the idea, I just provided a rationale for why it hasn't been implemented yet, figured I'd bring that up since "what you say matters".

 

 

Edited June 5, 2021 by Tyrannical

[arcane]

17 hours ago, Gobbledygook said:

 

I don't. Thanks for assuming, though.

You know how the saying goes about that, makes an a-, well, you get it.

Especially when you do that about the ENTIRE player base.

It was just an example of a power in a pool.

[arcane]

14 hours ago, Gobbledygook said:

 

This.

This is perfectly acceptable.

I’d be ok with them testing that (one more pool at cost of APP/PPP).

[aethereal]

On 6/4/2021 at 3:56 PM, 5099y_74c05 said:

What is next? DEF? Weave is the power offering the highest DEF is equivalent to about two IO sets of DEF bonsuses. This choice requires a commitment of two other choices from the pool. Other pool picks offer about half the value ranking it equivalent to one IO set worth of bonus.

 

This doesn't capture the dynamic of defense, in two ways:

 

1.  LotG is crucial to building to permahasten, and if your powersets do not include copious defense powers having defense powers in pools is a major premium as a complement to Hasten, not an alternative to it.

 

2.  Defense offers strongly increasing returns as you approach softcap.  If it were easy to hit softcap for most characters without pool powers, the ability to pick up defense pool powers more easily wouldn't be a big deal -- but outside of Time defenders and defense-based armor sets, it's not easy to build to softcap without pool powers.  If it were impossible to get near softcap for most characters, it wouldn't be a big deal to give people access to more defense powers.  But in fact, we live in a world in which getting S/L/E close to or to softcap is possible with pool powers and set bonuses, but it's tight.  So every additional +3% or so you can pick up matters.

[archgemini24]

Is it reasonable to look at Kheldians as a sample of how this already works? They get a forced Travel at lv1 and a supplement from the same pool at lv10, but they do not count among pools (or even powers) taken (so it kind of aligns with a suggestion that a travel pool not cost a pool pick), and it hasn't broken them. They could still just have other issues keeping from from brokenness, though.

 

Flipside of those freebies is they don't get EPPs/APPs, and they don't get the option of all the powers from their forced Travel pool (I wouldn't mind getting an Air Superiority-like power on my PB), so I guess its not entirely free.

[Greycat]

41 minutes ago, archgemini24 said:

Is it reasonable to look at Kheldians as a sample of how this already works? They get a forced Travel at lv1 and a supplement from the same pool at lv10, but they do not count among pools (or even powers) taken (so it kind of aligns with a suggestion that a travel pool not cost a pool pick), and it hasn't broken them. They could still just have other issues keeping from from brokenness, though.

 

Flipside of those freebies is they don't get EPPs/APPs, and they don't get the option of all the powers from their forced Travel pool (I wouldn't mind getting an Air Superiority-like power on my PB), so I guess its not entirely free.

 

They also have an infamous slot crunch if they take both forms. Or, really, even one.

[archgemini24]

29 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

They also have an infamous slot crunch if they take both forms. Or, really, even one.

 

Too true on the slot-crunch! But a Kheldian taking the forms is less likely to take the combination of potential "gamebreaking" pools (my guess on this set is Hasten, Combat Jumping, Leadership, Fighting, and Hover: which are admittedly the combination I have on my Human-only PB, lol!) since it is dependent on a lot of toggles that get turned off during the shuffle. My Tri-form build runs Hasten, Stealth for the LotG Uniques, and Force of Will (Unleash Potential).

 

Khelds just came to mind because they do effectively get a "travel-only, but at the cost of an Epic" 5th pool (a 6th and 7th if you include the Forms), and I was wondering how much of a difference it would make if they effectively got their choice of Travel and Supplement. I'd prefer Hover and Fly on my Warshade as a matter of convenience and theme, but I imagine there are some PBs for whom Recall and Teleport would match for them, or Combat Jumping and Super Jump. I'd say Hasten and SS, but there is no way in hell that's happening: it would be Flurry and SS or, at best, something on the order of Quickness from SR: the slow resistance would be nice, though.

[AerialAssault]

I agree with the OP, because it means more people would be able to slot the powers they've always wanted to, like Provoke and Injection!

 

Oh, wait. People just want the Defence powers? Hm .. okay .. maybe another time ..

[Lockpick]

5 hours ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

From my understanding of the OPs clarification I'm interpreting them as wanting one travel + four power pools; others are viewing it as a full fifth pool. Two different things two different discussions. I don't think either will be game breaking but I'm more for the former than the later after reading the OPs update; I think the four + travel is more likely to get traction while appeasing those concerned with unnamed game breaking fifth pool. <makes spooky noises>

 

 

 

For me specifically it generally come down to a travel power.  In many of my builds I do take Speed for Hasten / SS, Fighting for Tough / Weave, Leaping for CJ, and Leadership for Maneuvers / Tactics / Assault.  At that point I have the powers I need for defense and/or LoTG, but I also want Fly, but cannot get it.  Since I can substitute a Jet Pack for Fly I will often make that choice although I would rather just pick Fly.  If I really need Fly for concept I will generally ditch Leaping or the Leadership pool.

 

I would be fine with allowing an additional pool to select only the travel power.

I would be fine with selecting a 5th pool if you don't take the Epic pool.

I would be fine with capping defense pool powers.

I would also be fine with just opening a 5th pool.

 

I'm really just looking for more build diversification though pool powers.  Sure some people may min/max their builds, but so what?  People already do that...

[Alchemystic]

@aethereal sums it up nicely with the LotG example. You can only slot 5 of the Global Recharge Speed enhancements on any one character.

 

With 5 power pools, we can easily just pick Weave (Fighting), Stealth (invisibility), Hover (Flight), Manuevers (Leadership) and Combat Jumping (Leaping). That means you can slot all 5 LotG enhancements in pool powers alone, which means an exponential increase in build performance across all archetypes.

 

Now lets consider that you have at least one defense power in your primary or secondary powersets, or if you opted to pick a defense power in your ancillaries (like Frozen Armor or Scorpion Shield), that means you don't need that 5th pool power pick to accomplish the same result, right? However, that extra 5th pool power choice is likely going to be Hasten (Speed) to capitalise on the recharge boost that LotG offers, which means that any archetype in the game can run this kinda build, since all archetypes can access at least one defense power in their primary/secondary/ancillary powersets.

 

Right now, in order to maximise this setup with just four power pools, you're going to need at least two powers outside of pools that grant defense, which for some archetypes or powerset combinations isn't as easy as others. If you want to make it work, you have to consider your options carefully and make sacrifices in other areas of your build. By introducing a 5th power pool, we just make it easier for people to min-max.

 

So I'd argue this isn't going to bring more build diversification, it'll just create new metabuilds across all archetypes that grossly outperform the ones we have now. That's why if I were to support the idea of a 5th power pool, it would be in the form of swapping your ancillary power pool for a standard power pool, because it balances things a little easier. 

 

 

Edited June 6, 2021 by Tyrannical

[Alchemystic]

11 hours ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

Too game breaking Doomie with its two attack powers? Easy fix, cap DEF to four picks. Problem solved. The point is there are several way to mitigate concerning issues; No is the start of the conversation not the excuse.

 

From my understanding of the OPs clarification I'm interpreting them as wanting one travel + four power pools; others are viewing it as a full fifth pool. Two different things two different discussions.

 

Your ability to change your argument in the face of new evidence is uncanny.

[Alchemystic]

@5099y_74c05 please explain to me how anybody is supposed to make a build with 5 power pools with software designed to handle only 4?

 

 

[aethereal]

I think that we should stop dicking around with travel power changes -- the latest round of changes were interesting, but also kind of a waste of time in my opinion.

 

That said, it wouldn't be insane to make a "power pool" or something like it that just gave people access to the four classic travel powers without costing them a power pool slot (so literally just flight, teleport, superspeed, super jump).  I don't think that can reasonably be abused -- it probably just means that people who really want teleport for concept aren't punished as badly as they are in the game today.  You could probably also give people access to Mystic Flight and whatever the Super Jump clone is called (but not Speed of Sound, which at least for PvP is a power that impacts combat balance heavily).

[arcane]

Travel powers are powerful assets in combat. No vote to decoupling those from the rest.

[aethereal]

8 minutes ago, arcane said:

Travel powers are powerful assets in combat. No vote to decoupling those from the rest.

If travel powers were actually powerful assets in combat, people with top-performing builds would take them and use them in combat, which they don't (again, except Speed of Sound in PvP).

[arcane]

33 minutes ago, aethereal said:

If travel powers were actually powerful assets in combat, people with top-performing builds would take them and use them in combat, which they don't (again, except Speed of Sound in PvP).

They either do take them and use them already or the only reason they don’t is the squeeze to fit defense and LotG’s. Most people make do with SS/CJ for that latter reason alone. And you can stop mentioning PvP. You can Jaunt about in PvE too if you’re a good enough player to forego Fighting or Leadership once in awhile.

 

The only reason travel powers are not used more as combat assets is because players are uncomfortable surviving without Weave and Maneuvers. That does not mean they are not assets in combat.

Edited June 6, 2021 by arcane

[Alchemystic]

1 minute ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

Elaborate the concern.

 

All of these "metabuilds" are created via software called Mids, which is only configurable for up to 4 power pools.

 

And no, it's not as simple as adding the numbers from a 5th power pool onto an existing build, because all the values wouldn't be correct. The only way an accurate example could be provided was if the Mids software was equipped to handle a 5th power pool, so all numerical data could be calculated properly, since the enhancement system is percentile based with all kinds of rules, exceptions and formulas. 

 

It is literally impossible to provide the evidence you want, so you'll have to settle for the theoretical materials provided.

[EmperorSteele]

@aethereal ...How are people who take teleport for concept punished by the current system? I mean, you can grab it right at level 6 without prereqs. Do you mean a lack of ability to take certain IOs like Hover and Combat Jumping do?

But in any case, I'll echo an idea I've had in the past, which kind of flows with what you said. Have the four main travel powers available to pick at Level 1, along with your Pri/Sec at character creation. Whether this takes up a pool choice or not, I'm undecided. But it would amount to an extra free power and slot, which on it's own is already pretty powerful.

As for the ability to have unlimited pool picks, I'm undecided. On one hand, people say it would open up build diversity, but as this thread has demonstrated, all that would amount to is everyone trying to fit Hover/CJ/Stealth/Maneuvers/Weave and Hasten into their builds to stack up on Defense and Recharge. I highly doubt anyone would use the opening of pool choices to dive too heavily into Presence or Medicine.

On the OTHER hand, a build that dives too heavily into pools to accomplish all this might not be very effective, would it? Let's find out! The combo above takes up 8 powers (assuming Boxing-or-Kick and Tough are still prerequisites for Weave). We have a total of 24 powers. If you factor in the 3 Pri/Sec powers we have to take at levels 1 and 2, that leaves us with 13 more power choices to fill out our build. In other words, we've already taken up nearly half of our power choices. Let's make a few more assumptions, that wouldn't apply to everyone, but let's just theory-craft here!

Someone who's already opened up Leadership is probably also going to take Assault and/or Tactics. Also, having taken Hasten and CJ, they may pick Super Speed and/or Super Jump as well. This seems to be part of the meta, so I don't think it's a stretch to make this theoretical presumption.  So that's at least two more power picks, but a max of four more, bringing our total power picks for everything else down to about 10 (plus our three mandatory Pri/Sec powers).

With ten more powers, plus the fact that we already to have at least one attack and one utility power, and a third that could go either way (depending on your AT and Pri/Sec), it wouldn't be too difficult to round out our attack chain and grab some utility, while also benefiting from near-permahasten and about 15-25% defense to start off with (depending on AT). Let's try all this with a classic Fire/En Blaster!

Auto: Health
Auto: Stamina
Level 1: Fire Blast
Level 1: Power Thrust
Level 2: Fireball
Level 4: Build Up
Level 6: Stealth
Level 8: Maneuvers
Level 10: Hover
Level 12: Aim
Level 14: Hasten
Level 16: Boxing (this is where Mids can no longer keep up with this thought experiment, so, gotta wing it from here!)
Level 18: Blaze
Level 20: Tough
Level 22: Weave
Level 24: Energize
Level 26: Super Speed
Level 28: Assault
Level 30: Tactics
Level 32: Inferno
Level 35: Munitions Mastery: Body Armor
Level 38: Bone Smasher
Level 41: Cryo Freeze Ray
Level 44: Rain of Fire
Level 47: Surveillance
Level 49: Vengeance

Not even gonna try to completely slot it, but I don't think it would be hard to fit all the standard Uniques and globals and procs and purple sets one would want. Giving our 5 +Def powers a level 50 Def enhancement, and our Res powers a Res enhancement, and loading them up with our specials (+def, +res, etc), we have a character who has about 18% Def vs all, 8% res vs all except S/L which is about 33%.

If we go for sets? Well, slotting what I could, getting to the Def cap (range) and Perma hasten weren't especially difficult. Being able to fit multiple purple sets and BotZ sets helped with that.

So, yeah, a character with Def cap, perma hasten, and a viable ranged attack chain (as well as the "Get out of my face" combo of Bone Smasher + Power Thrust), and Inferno for when you just wanna blow a bunch of dudes up. Sounds powerful, right?

Overall, it doesn't seem too much crazier than what we can already do, but I also don't see anyone wanting to chase a "meta" build deviating too far from this, short of fitting in a hibernate/aid self combo for PvP.
 

I wonder what a janky "ALL pools!" build would look like, where someone tried to go all in on as many pools as possible, to the detriment of everything else. Weak attacks for sure, but being able to do a little bit of everything sounds like it might be fun 😃