Homecoming Code of Conduct Update - May 13th, 2021

[Wapsitax]

On 5/29/2021 at 2:46 PM, FriezaReturns00001 said:

I wasn't asking you though. It actually not hard to grasp what I'm saying:

You do realize it's kind of a double edge sword for streaming at least streaming not videos i.e. the potential of copyrighted characters showing up out of no where, even if and/or said users are AFK -- it's a risk because anyone can glance at a stream and see something off that upsets NCSoft no esp since they do have the property back yet? Dunno why that'd be confusing so why are yah like this?

 

It is a risk in general due to the mount of streaming service activities which opens a floodgate. This is only common knowledge to people who are within the streaming community anyway so they know this better than most non-streamers/gamers. Which is why I said, it sounds like it would be better to stream after they got the IP back in full but if they did there are still others problems to pop up. 🤷‍♂️ but I'll see how this progresses a year from now.

 

Yes I realize that video and streaming services increases the number of eyes on the game. Yes I realize that increases the likelihood that a human being is going to spot an overt copyright/trademark/IP violation. Yes I realize that increases the likelihood an IP holder and/or NCSoft may become aware of said violation.

 

But what I also realize is that the courts don't really care that those violations exist. They care what the service holder (Homecoming in this case) have in place to dissuade and prevent such violations. I also know that Homecoming has a policy in place that prohibits it that's pretty standard for similar services. I'm also aware that they actively enforce it, and can almost definitely prove that they actively enforce it. I'm also aware that this is almost definitely what NCSoft actually cares about, as well as most other IP holders. Because they're concerned with the legality of it and protecting their claims/rights, not the mere existence of violations, for the most part. (Yes exceptions exist, even high profile ones, but as a general rule this appears to be the case.)

 

I'm also admittedly under the assumption that Homecoming is under NDA due to legal negotiations with NCSoft, and that the streaming policy was originally put in place under the direction of NCSoft and that the policy was changed has NCSoft's blessing. AKA very low risk.

 

While that last part is a lot of assumptions, I think those assumptions are pretty well substantiated based on information the Homecoming team themselves have released and a vague, general understanding of what it means to be in legal negotiations with a large corporation.

 

Homecoming is never going to "got the IP back in full" - they never had it. That belongs to NCSoft and they've made it clear they're not interested in selling it. What they are most probably working to get is a license to use that IP to continue to keep the Homecoming servers running in a legal way. Further I'm not sure what 'other problems' could possibly pop up from allowing streaming of the game under the approval of the IP holder, but hey, that is an assumption of mine. I just haven't seen an ounce of credible evidence to challenge said assumption.

 

Unless you mean NCSoft getting their IP back, in which case... what? They never lost it. They might have come under risk of a challenge against it due to the source code for the server being released publicly, but they came down pretty hard on that with C&Ds to protect their claim.

 

Lastly, I understand that the admittedly assumed NDA prevents the Homecoming team from talking about anything related to the legal negotiations, including confirming any aspect thereof, without explicit prior approval from NCSoft. And that they're almost definitely erring on the side of extreme caution to not put said negotiations under any risk. Some-to-many NDAs prohibit even overtly acknowledging the NDA exists.

 

That is why I'm like this.

[JayboH]

Since it has been several pages, I want to reiterate:  You should not stream this game on Twitch.  It is directly against their Terms of Service, which can lead to punishments including bans.  They have enforced this in other games before.

 

I know that several will continue to do it, and it's probably unlikely that anything will happen, however it is against their ToS and I want people to be aware.  I assume NCSoft would need to get Twitch' attention in order to pursue, which isn't likely, but you might as well not take the risk.

 

This risk is completely mitigated if the possibility of HC getting the rights is actually somehow true.

[ch1m3r4c0mpl3x]

5 hours ago, JayboH said:

Since it has been several pages, I want to reiterate:  You should not stream this game on Twitch.  It is directly against their Terms of Service, which can lead to punishments including bans.  They have enforced this in other games before.

 

I know that several will continue to do it, and it's probably unlikely that anything will happen, however it is against their ToS and I want people to be aware.  I assume NCSoft would need to get Twitch' attention in order to pursue, which isn't likely, but you might as well not take the risk.

 

This risk is completely mitigated if the possibility of HC getting the rights is actually somehow true.

You've said it a couple times now. I get that you're trying to be helpful here, but I think it would be more helpful if you also included your recommendations on which platforms might be more lenient.

[ZacKing]

On 5/29/2021 at 5:46 PM, FriezaReturns00001 said:

I wasn't asking you though. It actually not hard to grasp what I'm saying:

You do realize it's kind of a double edge sword for streaming at least streaming not videos i.e. the potential of copyrighted characters showing up out of no where, even if and/or said users are AFK -- it's a risk because anyone can glance at a stream and see something off that upsets NCSoft no esp since they do have the property back yet? Dunno why that'd be confusing so why are yah like this?

 

It is a risk in general due to the mount of streaming service activities which opens a floodgate. This is only common knowledge to people who are within the streaming community anyway so they know this better than most non-streamers/gamers. Which is why I said, it sounds like it would be better to stream after they got the IP back in full but if they did there are still others problems to pop up. 🤷‍♂️ but I'll see how this progresses a year from now.

 

let me start by saying I don't think any rules here need to be changed and I don't have any problem following them.  I'll repeat, I don't think any rules here need to be changed and I don't have a problem following them.  Now that's out of the way, serious question -  where does this level of panic and hysteria over others making homages of copyrighted characters come from?  Anyone can google or youtube search existing for profit games that have skins of trademarked and copyrighted characters in them.  Youtube is polluted with them.  From what I can see, not a one of them has gotten and c&d letter.  What makes this game any different?  In case anyone missed it the first time, I don't think any rules here need to be changed and I don't mind following them.

[Rathulfr]

11 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

From what I can see, not a one of them has gotten and c&d letter.  What makes this game any different?

 

1. Why would you (or anyone else) be privy to a private C&D letter from an IP holder to a copyright violator (unless you were a member of either party)?
2. CoH is different because Marvel sued NCSoft over this specific issue.  Regardless of the details or merits, there's actual history here, so it's not just speculation.

 

[ZacKing]

2 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

1. Why would you (or anyone else) be privy to a private C&D letter from an IP holder to a copyright violator (unless you were a member of either party)?
2. CoH is different because Marvel sued NCSoft over this specific issue.  Regardless of the details or merits, there's actual history here, so it's not just speculation.

 

 

All you need to do is look and you'll find all kinds of for-profit games with skins of trademarked and copyrighted characters available.  Many of them are large well known games that have been around for many years with literal millions of views on Youtube and other streaming services.  So what. IP holders don't notice them at all but they're going to pounce on this game?  Yeah Marvel sued and it didn't really go well for them did it?  I get that it's a rule here and that's fine, just don't quite get where the panic over this issue is coming from is all. 

[Rathulfr]

Just now, ZacKing said:

 

All you need to do is look and you'll find all kinds of for-profit games with skins of trademarked and copyrighted characters available.  Many of them are large well known games that have been around for many years with literal millions of views on Youtube and other streaming services.  So what. IP holders don't notice them at all but they're going to pounce on this game?  Yeah Marvel sued and it didn't really go well for them did it?  I get that it's a rule here and that's fine, just don't quite get where the panic over this issue is coming from is all. 

 

Just because you can see these things doesn't mean that (a) they didn't get C&D letters, or (b) they haven't somehow gotten permissions or licensed the IP in some way.  It's like when you see a someone race past you on the highway well over the speed limit: they might have gotten away with it while you were looking, but that doesn't mean they weren't caught eventually.  And even if they weren't, their violation of the law doesn't mean that you can get away with it, too.

 

As for the Marvel suit: yes, it didn't go well for them; however, it still did force NCSoft/Paragon to crack down on IP violations in the game.  There was definitely an effect on the game, even though Marvel lost the suit (and NCSoft didn't "win", either).  The point is still valid, and it's still a legitimate concern and vector of risk: it's not some imaginary "panic" that's spun up out of nothing.

 

[ZacKing]

2 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

 

Just because you can see these things doesn't mean that (a) they didn't get C&D letters, or (b) they haven't somehow gotten permissions or licensed the IP in some way.  It's like when you see a someone race past you on the highway well over the speed limit: they might have gotten away with it while you were looking, but that doesn't mean they weren't caught eventually.  And even if they weren't, their violation of the law doesn't mean that you can get away with it, too.

 

As for the Marvel suit: yes, it didn't go well for them; however, it still did force NCSoft/Paragon to crack down on IP violations in the game.  There was definitely an effect on the game, even though Marvel lost the suit (and NCSoft didn't "win", either).  The point is still valid, and it's still a legitimate concern and vector of risk: it's not some imaginary "panic" that's spun up out of nothing.

 

 

Alright so it's ok to assume that some other game has a license or permission to have copyrighted skins, but it's not ok to assume the same thing here when someone is viewing a stream?  Can't we also assume that IP holders know this stuff is out there and just don't care about it?  No ones suggesting the rules shouldn't be enforced here.  If people see a flagrant problem, report it and let the folks here do their thing.  Panicking the game is going to get shut down over a stream session because of the remote chance someone might see an homage character in it is a bit much if you ask me.  

[Rathulfr]

3 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

 

Alright so it's ok to assume that some other game has a license or permission to have copyrighted skins, but it's not ok to assume the same thing here when someone is viewing a stream?  Can't we also assume that IP holders know this stuff is out there and just don't care about it?  No ones suggesting the rules shouldn't be enforced here.  If people see a flagrant problem, report it and let the folks here do their thing.  Panicking the game is going to get shut down over a stream session because of the remote chance someone might see an homage character in it is a bit much if you ask me.  

 

Minimizing the problem as "everybody does it" is just as bad as maximizing the problem into a "panic".  I was merely taking issue with your minimizing the problem, just as you are taking issue with maximizing the problem.  Ultimately, as long as we're both agreed that the rules are reasonable and we're both following the rules, there's no problem at all.  🙂

 

[ZacKing]

8 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

Minimizing the problem as "everybody does it" is just as bad as maximizing the problem into a "panic".  I was merely taking issue with your minimizing the problem, just as you are taking issue with maximizing the problem.  Ultimately, as long as we're both agreed that the rules are reasonable and we're both following the rules, there's no problem at all.  🙂

 

 

I've said a bunch of times now I've no problems with the rules here and don't think they should be changed.  I'm just curious why some people panic over what to me is a very minor risk.  Just trying to understand the thinking is all.

[Rathulfr]

5 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

 

I've said a bunch of times now I've no problems with the rules here and don't think they should be changed.  I'm just curious why some people panic over what to me is a very minor risk.  Just trying to understand the thinking is all.

 

People panic in this case because there's actual history to justify their panic, to some degree.  We may not agree that panic is necessary/warranted, but we can understand why some people might feel panicked.  I don't think that their panic is going to go away by saying "relax, we won't get caught" or  "relax, everybody's doing it".

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Rathulfr

[Apparition]

10 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

 

I've said a bunch of times now I've no problems with the rules here and don't think they should be changed.  I'm just curious why some people panic over what to me is a very minor risk.  Just trying to understand the thinking is all.

 

 

This whole thing started because a YouTube content creator popular with over a million pre-teens made a "homage" character to The Incredible Hulk and played as him, showing a bunch of pre-teens how to do like wise.  That earned the video a C&D by NCSoft, which shut down all video streaming and recording on Homecoming.  So some "panic" is justified.  Don't poke the bear, especially when the bear was already poked by lawyers of a company that owns the character that you made a "homage" of.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Apparition

[ZacKing]

1 hour ago, Rathulfr said:

 

People panic in this case because there's actual history to justify their panic, to some degree.  We may not agree that panic is necessary/warranted, but we can understand why some people might feel panicked.  I don't think that their panic is going to go away by saying "relax, we won't get caught" or  "relax, everybody's doing it".

 

 

Yes to some degree being the part I was curious about.  I can understand why there is some concern.  I just don't see it as a big one.  I'm not telling anyone to do anything.  Just trying to understand is all.  I hope that conversation is still allowed here.

 

 

[JayboH]

9 hours ago, ch1m3r4c0mpl3x said:

You've said it a couple times now. I get that you're trying to be helpful here, but I think it would be more helpful if you also included your recommendations on which platforms might be more lenient.

Let me know which ones you want me to look into and I will.

[ZacKing]

4 hours ago, Apparition said:

 

 

This whole thing started because a YouTube content creator popular with over a million pre-teens made a "homage" character to The Incredible Hulk and played as him, showing a bunch of pre-teens how to do like wise.  That earned the video a C&D by NCSoft, which shut down all video streaming and recording on Homecoming.  So some "panic" is justified.  Don't poke the bear, especially when the bear was already poked by lawyers of a company that owns the character that you made a "homage" of.

 

Wasn't this before the policy was put into place here?  It's in place now.

[JayboH]

Ah screw it, until I hear Twitch is going to intervene, I streamed it once to test the waters. 

[SonicMobian]

On 5/13/2021 at 4:10 PM, JayboH said:

Might be a good idea if you have to stream on Twitch and nowhere else to make an alt account (on Twitch) just in case, if you care about the possibility of losing your main account there. 

I stream Warframe and you don't see Digital Extremes (Creator of Warframe) complain about streamers streaming there game, Twitch cannot ban me for streaming Warframe I did it for the past few years without issues I do nothing crazy when I stream mostly chill relaxing streams. So why should City of Heroes be an exception to being bannable by twitch? CoH is no different than any other thousands of other games streamers like me stream all the time. We Variety Streamers would be out of the "Job" if we cannot stream a variety of games.

 

So until Twitch has a major problem with a super tiny streamer like me. I highly doubt they will go after me, I am not a famous streamer so I cannot really draw Twitch's attention anyways even if I wanted too.

[UltraAlt]

7 hours ago, SonicMobian said:

I stream Warframe and you don't see Digital Extremes (Creator of Warframe) complain about streamers streaming there game

 

Homecoming is not the creator of City of Heroes.

 

If you want to game here, you also need to abide by the Code of Conduct if you don't want to face the penalties for breaking those rules.

 

If Twitch is the issue, then Twich's rules and consequences apply.

 

Edited August 4, 2021 by UltraAlt

[Mrwrk]

I realize how late this is, and also how unlikely it is that this opinion will change anything.

 

This policy has severely impacted my playing with pick-up groups and with any sort of endgame content requiring leagues. Once I realized people were broadcasting play without getting consent, or at least informing those being broadcast, I basically stopped doing anything with anyone I didn’t know. Even on minor task forces I was being streamed without my consent and finding out after the fact.

 

People may think me over-reacting, but I basically don’t care. I think we should have a choice whether we are rebroadcast publicly, and it certainly shouldn’t be happening without our awareness. 

 

 

[Bionic_Flea]

I agree with Mrwrk.  I don't want to be streamed.  I appreciate those that do stream and say they are doing so ahead of time so that I can avoid it.  But it just seems wrong to me that someone can broadcast me without my consent or even letting me know that it is happening.

[Abraxus]

I certainly understand the concern.  However, when compared with the more personal information that the large internet, and media providers gather on you every day, essentially just by using the internet, and their products; it is not quite as scary a prospect.  

[Glacier Peak]

You're giving consent when you click 'I Agree' when you log in. 

[Seigmoraig]

Wouldn't want those 5 people watching CoH twitch streams to copy your costumes. There's probably more people watching you through a video when you are going up the elevator to your office or appartment. It's not a big deal guys

Edited August 15, 2021 by Seigmoraig

[JayboH]

6 hours ago, Mrwrk said:

I realize how late this is, and also how unlikely it is that this opinion will change anything.

 

This policy has severely impacted my playing with pick-up groups and with any sort of endgame content requiring leagues. Once I realized people were broadcasting play without getting consent, or at least informing those being broadcast, I basically stopped doing anything with anyone I didn’t know. Even on minor task forces I was being streamed without my consent and finding out after the fact.

 

People may think me over-reacting, but I basically don’t care. I think we should have a choice whether we are rebroadcast publicly, and it certainly shouldn’t be happening without our awareness. 

 

 

That doesn't exist for any multiplayer game that is being streamed by anyone.  Pretty sure this is a fairly rare take as well.  It's probably like people with phone cameras:  any time you are out in public places your consent is not needed to be recorded/streamed.

[Bionic_Flea]

6 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

You're giving consent when you click 'I Agree' when you log in. 

I disagree.  I'm agreeing to Homecoming's terms of service.  I don't recall seeing where any other player was authorized to stream my character, my text, or my voice.  Of course, I may have missed it.  Can you show me where it says that I agree to other player's streaming me?