Buff Brutes... or Nerf Tanks.

[chi1701]

1 minute ago, macskull said:

Scale is irrelevant since it is based on recharge time and is not an AT-specific thing.

 

Why i said much more, ive got an old data sheet with every stat for every archytype. Also got accuracy, recharge, to hit, cast time, endurance cost, targets, radius etc

[macskull]

9 minutes ago, chi1701 said:

 

Why i said much more, ive got an old data sheet with every stat for every archytype. Also got accuracy, recharge, to hit, cast time, endurance cost, targets, radius etc

It's also worth pointing out the example you gave is an oddity because the Blaster damage scale for Snap Shot should be 0.68 as well. No idea why it's 0.84, which would be consistent with a 3-second recharge time.

[chi1701]

2 minutes ago, macskull said:

It's also worth pointing out the example you gave is an oddity because the Blaster damage scale for Snap Shot should be 0.68 as well. No idea why it's 0.84, which would be consistent with a 3-second recharge time.

 

It was just an example of getting different numbers based on damage, scale etc and not using archytype modifer to prove that there is much more to the numbers that the modifier it self.

[Naraka]

2 hours ago, siolfir said:

That hard-capping defense to 40% is a Bad Idea™ and would have a "cascading failure" of other systems and encounters needing to be adjusted, for little to no benefit because people would just go about their merry way using, as you so eloquently put it, "non-defense mitigation such as heals, regen, resistance, -rech, sleeps, disorient, confuse, holds and knockback."

 

It's not a panacea, and making it harder to soft-cap would be met with equal vitriol without breaking existing encounters and would have the side benefit of not invalidating an entire set of support powers that provide +defense.

 

I don't believe it was claimed to be a panacea.

 

Using other mitigation methods in conjunction would reduce the reliance of pure def to a point, which was moreso the point, and bring about more prominence and purpose of other effects like -ToHit or outside buffing factors and outside sources (this is the thing I want emphasis on) to shore up the gap.

 

At best, your argument is people would use other forms of mitigation to break even or reach similar peaks of damage mitigation.  I feel THAT is the actual goal since it's less gameable and more wide-spread than just putting the pedal to defense and letting the plebs use everything else to try to compare.

 

As for vitriol for harder soft-caps: cry me a river.  I'm sure you could bury those cries next to Force Field and other defense-oriented buff sets whose only other option is to feed into power creep to keep up...or heck, even -ToHit debuff support sets toward endgame.  At what point do we actually want every set to participate without just working around IOs, softcapped def and -regen on AVs?  It's fucking pathetic for a non-twitch strategic-like MMO, honestly...

 

 

Edited May 21, 2021 by Naraka

[Naraka]

57 minutes ago, chi1701 said:

 

What the guy you quoted needs to understand, that the archytypes damage is only part of the equation, Base damage x scale x archytype modifer. 

 

For example, blaster vs defender on snapshot

 

Defender is base of 36.1466 scale of 0.68 which gives damage of 24.5797

Blaster is base of 62.5615 scale of 0.84 gives damage of  52.5517

 

Understanding how each archytype does damage isnt just based on modifier but much more.

If that's the case, I suppose I have a misunderstanding of the base damage.  I just assumed an attack (not specifically altered for a certain set) had a specific base damage and then the damage modifier was applied (melee or ranged) and afterwards, any current/capped damage modifiers afterwards alters that product.

 

I know some attacks have different base damage purposefully altered for balance reasons (like, for instance, some Dom Assault attacks or that Blasters have different attacks from what would be considered "base") but I thought the damage scale WAS the AT modifier....or that the attack's scale was determined mathematically by other factors (like recharge and endurance cost) which was then multiplied by the AT mod.  I guess, overall, I sort of get what you're saying but I'll need a bit more info to fully alter my position.

[Doomguide2005]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

You have to admit, it would make the game harder.

 

But it would be like throwing a chaos grenade into the game balance.  

     And then some!

 

     Just go ahead and make an SR scrapper  take double damage from all attacks.  That's essentially what this suggestion is requesting --> Do you know how many set bonuses are involved soft capping an SR scrapper or better yet Tanker?  Zero, let me repeat that, zero.  I can soft cap an SR scrapper with SO's, no IOs needed.  And that's without touching Elude.  Would it make the game harder ... lol no, not really.  And yeah it would definitely make any outside ally defense buffs utterly worthless outside of maybe allowing a static team SR skip multiple powers for ... extra pool picks?  The idea of hard capping at a way, way, way lower value just screams problematic.

     

 

[macskull]

11 minutes ago, Naraka said:

As for vitriol for harder soft-caps: cry me a river.  I'm sure you could bury those cries next to Force Field and other defense-oriented buff sets whose only other option is to feed into power creep to keep up...or heck, even -ToHit debuff support sets toward endgame.  At what point do we actually want every set to participate without just working around IOs, softcapped def and -regen on AVs?  It's fucking pathetic for a non-twitch strategic-like MMO, honestly...

This has got to be one of the worst hot takes I've seen in this thread.

 

• Force Fields is in need of a buff because defense is all it does. If it were the only set which gave ally defense it would not be in this situation, but in reality it's completely outclassed by sets like Traps, Cold, and Time simply because those sets offer defense and other useful buffs/debuffs.
• -Tohit is useful to a point but unlike defense it's subject to the purple patch and archvillain resistance, meaning any value of -tohit needs to be absurdly large to still be valuable. If you implement a lower defense hardcap, -tohit is not magically improved but rather is completely unaffected.
• Calling this game "strategic-like" is laughable. A team of almost any sort of characters can be successful in almost any sort of content as long as the people at the keyboard aren't trying to wear their pants as a hat.

[chi1701]

1 minute ago, Naraka said:

If that's the case, I suppose I have a misunderstanding of the base damage.  I just assumed an attack (not specifically altered for a certain set) had a specific base damage and then the damage modifier was applied (melee or ranged) and afterwards, any current/capped damage modifiers afterwards alters that product.

 

I know some attacks have different base damage purposefully altered for balance reasons (like, for instance, some Dom Assault attacks or that Blasters have different attacks from what would be considered "base") but I thought the damage scale WAS the AT modifier....or that the attack's scale was determined mathematically by other factors (like recharge and endurance cost) which was then multiplied by the AT mod.  I guess, overall, I sort of get what you're saying but I'll need a bit more info to fully alter my position.

 

This is a snapshot of page 5 stats, yes out of date but still interesting

 

Primary

FullName

Archery

Name

Lvl

Acc

Base Dmg

Scale

Scale2

Dmg

Dmg2

DPA

Act

Cast

Arcana

TimeHit

Rch

End

Rng

Radius

Arc

Tgts

Area

Outside

Primary

Blaster_Ranged.Assault_Rifle.Burst

Assault Rifle

Burst

1

1.05

62.5615

1.0800

-

67.5664

-

56.8741

-

1

1.188

0.27

4

5.2

90

-

-

-

SingleTarget

-

[macskull]

Attack damage is based on the damage scale and AT modifier, and damage scale is based on recharge time and areafactor (a weird calculation which takes into account radius and arc for AoE attacks, and which is equal to 1 for single-target attacks). The Blaster/Dominator secondary powers are "altered" in that they have higher recharge times than their comparable melee versions which results in higher damage scale and as a result higher DPA.

[Naraka]

3 minutes ago, macskull said:

This has got to be one of the worst hot takes I've seen in this thread.

 

• Force Fields is in need of a buff because defense is all it does. If it were the only set which gave ally defense it would not be in this situation, but in reality it's completely outclassed by sets like Traps, Cold, and Time simply because those sets offer defense and other useful buffs/debuffs.
• -Tohit is useful to a point but unlike defense it's subject to the purple patch and archvillain resistance, meaning any value of -tohit needs to be absurdly large to still be valuable. If you implement a lower defense hardcap, -tohit is not magically improved but rather is completely unaffected.
• Calling this game "strategic-like" is laughable. A team of almost any sort of characters can be successful in almost any sort of content as long as the people at the keyboard aren't trying to wear their pants as a hat.

 

I guess I'll take that as a compliment.

 

Force Field  was made mostly obsolete by IOs.  I don't care if you think it's a hot take that wishing FF added even more buffs ontop of what it can already provide is overkill on an already unbalanced mess.  You can bake that hot take into the hot take of the game as a whole lol

 

If def were adjusted so that defense buff sets (in part, and FF in full) filled in what was effectively that portion of soft capped not achievable via self-buffs alone, then you cross into what most MMOs tend to do pre-emptively to bring their support into prominence vs forcing said support into overpowering the game.

 

As for the point about -ToHit, put that take on a skillet.  You contradict arguing it.  We have -ToHit immune to the purple patch for a reason.  The reason a lot of it isn't immune is because of 1.) overwhelming defense 2.) overpowering support and 3.) combination of the two.  If we decided to, for whatever purpose, implement diminishing returns on defense balanced by other sources such as -ToHit, support +def and/or some other element requiring team coordination, is that somehow worse for balance?  Perhaps if the only focus is self-reliance...

[golstat2003]

Bill, you are a brave brave man.

 

*runs from the thread. FAST*

[Infinitum]

11 minutes ago, Naraka said:

I guess I'll take that as a compliment.

Well then you missed the point.

[Naraka]

Just now, Infinitum said:

Well then you missed the point.

Sure.

[chi1701]

26 minutes ago, macskull said:

This has got to be one of the worst hot takes I've seen in this thread.

 

• Force Fields is in need of a buff because defense is all it does. If it were the only set which gave ally defense it would not be in this situation, but in reality it's completely outclassed by sets like Traps, Cold, and Time simply because those sets offer defense and other useful buffs/debuffs.
• -Tohit is useful to a point but unlike defense it's subject to the purple patch and archvillain resistance, meaning any value of -tohit needs to be absurdly large to still be valuable. If you implement a lower defense hardcap, -tohit is not magically improved but rather is completely unaffected.
• Calling this game "strategic-like" is laughable. A team of almost any sort of characters can be successful in almost any sort of content as long as the people at the keyboard aren't trying to wear their pants as a hat.

 

tbh, if you look at defenders inherent which provides a reduction in cost of endurance for abilties based on overal teams health, how does that benefit pro-active sets such as force fields, how will having more endurance benefit the powers?

[Wavicle]

Just now, chi1701 said:

 

tbh, if you look at defenders inherent which provides a reduction in cost of endurance for abilties based on overal teams health, how does that benefit pro-active sets such as force fields, how will having more endurance benefit the powers?

If things go south it benefits them plenty.

[chi1701]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

If things go south it benefits them plenty.

 

Can you provide any suggestions as to what they can do?

[macskull]

8 minutes ago, chi1701 said:

 

tbh, if you look at defenders inherent which provides a reduction in cost of endurance for abilties based on overal teams health, how does that benefit pro-active sets such as force fields, how will having more endurance benefit the powers?

Believe it or not, Defenders actually have a secondary powerset which they are perfectly capable of using and which also benefits from their inherent, allowing them to deal damage/debuff at a reduced endurance cost if they've done what they can with their primary.

[Brutal Justice]

4 hours ago, Arbegla said:

 

Though, that is from a single source, which basically never happens. And that is the pitfall of the guide, and the math used.

 

Multiple sources makes things really scary for defense. Single sources, not so much.

 

I think your first point is valid but I disagree with your second. Multiple sources tends to favor defense over resists.   If you’re a positional defense set you only have three things to worry about.  I also don’t recall any of those positional sets having a hole to one position over another.   Veats have higher ranged I suppose.  

 

if you’re a typed defense set you might have some holes, but the way defense is checked makes those holes smaller than they usually appear.  This is because most attacks have some portion of their damage as s/l.  

 

Resistance on the the other hand often has several holes they need to cover and are probably unable to do so.  They don’t mitigate the mixed damage types nearly as effectively as the defense sets.  

 

It it is common knowledge, and often given as advice, that if you can’t hard cap all of your resists you focus on s/l because it’s the most common.  Energy comes in a close second at end game.  Similar with blasters, if you can’t softcap ranged then focus on soft capped s/l because most attacks have some portion of their damage as s/l.  

 

The mixed damage sources only favor the defense which makes those numbers even more out of balance.  

[Wavicle]

15 minutes ago, chi1701 said:

 

Can you provide any suggestions as to what they can do?

in the case of force fields, they can keep their knockdown aura running, spam repulsion bomb and force bolt, and Attack.

 

i would argue that Force Field actually takes Great advantage of the inherent, since a bubbled team can live at medium health without dying.

[macskull]

27 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Force Field  was made mostly obsolete by IOs.  I don't care if you think it's a hot take that wishing FF added even more buffs ontop of what it can already provide is overkill on an already unbalanced mess.  You can bake that hot take into the hot take of the game as a whole lol

For some melee characters, Force Fields was obsolete on launch day. For everyone else, it was made obsolete in 2005 when Cold showed up. The only reason it didn't totally go away is because you couldn't play Cold on heroside until I12. Further powerset proliferation and "any AT can be played redside or blueside" only exacerbated it. A set which only offers defense (yes, it does offer a few other things like... repel, knockback, and cage) is useful when defense is required but quickly loses its appeal once the extra defense doesn't matter. Meanwhile, there are sets which provide defense and other things so even if everyone has a bunch of defense those sets are still contributing something.

 

27 minutes ago, Naraka said:

If def were adjusted so that defense buff sets (in part, and FF in full) filled in what was effectively that portion of soft capped not achievable via self-buffs alone, then you cross into what most MMOs tend to do pre-emptively to bring their support into prominence vs forcing said support into overpowering the game.

Thankfully, CoH isn't "most MMOs" and certain ATs and powersets aren't required to complete any of the content in the game. Regardless, the situation you are describing (where only outside buffs could get you past a certain point) is not possible with the game engine.

 

27 minutes ago, Naraka said:

As for the point about -ToHit, put that take on a skillet.  You contradict arguing it.  We have -ToHit immune to the purple patch for a reason.  The reason a lot of it isn't immune is because of 1.) overwhelming defense 2.) overpowering support and 3.) combination of the two.  If we decided to, for whatever purpose, implement diminishing returns on defense balanced by other sources such as -ToHit, support +def and/or some other element requiring team coordination, is that somehow worse for balance?  Perhaps if the only focus is self-reliance...

I'm not sure whether you're saying -tohit is or isn't affected by the purple patch, but if you're saying it's not, then you've found a bug. There should not be any sources of -tohit (or any debuff really) which are unaffected by level difference. As for the rest of this... sure, you could implement diminishing returns on certain types of buffs (see: issue 13 PvP changes) but then you'd run into the problem of not having anyone left around to enjoy your "newly balanced" game since they'd be going off to one of the other CoH servers which chose not to implement such a boneheaded change.

[macskull]

6 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

Multiple sources tends to favor defense over resists. 

You're misunderstanding what "multiple sources" means. In this context "multiple sources" is "multiple critters attacking at the same time." In that situation, while the defense-based build has higher survivability on paper, the more sources of incoming damage the more likely the defense-based character is to take enough damage to rapidly kill it.

[Brutal Justice]

4 hours ago, Infinitum said:

And you would be just as wrong as the previous 10k times you have posted it.

 

I simply provided numbers generated by a tool developed by one of our most respected community members.  I would double check his math... if I had the capacity to do so.   If you have the capacity, then please do.  I am not here to spread misinformation.  I would love to be corrected with actual information if that were indeed the case.  I did not calculate probability in my original numbers and had that probability information changed the info I was putting out I would gladly and respectfully have accepted it.

 

  I used the survivability tool in a bit of a rush but I do believe I saw a probability factor listed.  I don’t know if I had to fill it out or if was auto generated by the man behind the curtain.  

[Brutal Justice]

4 hours ago, macskull said:

You're missing one of the key issues: every time I jump into a mob of +4x8 enemies on my softcapped <insert character here> I'm taking a gamble. I don't know that I will survive the encounter or even the alpha - there's a not-insignificant chance multiple mobs get hits in and if I'm not fast enough on the inspirations I'm taking a dirt nap. This disparity gets worse on characters with lower HP (pretty much everything that isn't a Scrapper, Tanker, or Brute).

 

You’re right.  Every time you jump in it’s a gamble.  It’s not a gamble for a resistance scrapper.  He dies in 11 seconds and gets hit by 50% of the debuffs sent at him.  That near certain death is not insignificant...

[chi1701]

1 minute ago, Brutal Justice said:

 

You’re right.  Every time you jump in it’s a gamble.  It’s not a gamble for a resistance scrapper.  He dies in 11 seconds and gets hit by 50% of the debuffs sent at him.  That near certain death is not insignificant...

 

Ok, everyone has a minimum chance to hit of 5%, so how does defence and -to hit debuff interact with each other?

[macskull]

2 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

 

You’re right.  Every time you jump in it’s a gamble.  It’s not a gamble for a resistance scrapper.  He dies in 11 seconds and gets hit by 50% of the debuffs sent at him.  That near certain death is not insignificant...

You are assuming the Scrapper does nothing and simply stands there which is in no way representative of anything that will actually happen during gameplay.