Buff Brutes... or Nerf Tanks.

[Bill Z Bubba]

I have three Bill Z Bubbas.

 

Well, technically speaking I have Bill Z Bubba the scrapper, Beel Z Bubba the brute and Bael Z Bubba the tank.

 

All three use Claws and Super Reflexes.

 

While solo, the scrapper kicks the crap out of the brute and the tank on standard +4 clear alls.

While solo, the tank kicks the crap out of the brute and scrapper on being able to survive Werner rules level content. (Enemies buffed, players debuffed, no insps, no faceplants, no temps.)

 

The scrapper takes down a pylon in 3 mins. The brute, 4 mins. The tank 4.5 mins.

 

While the brute may be the most suited to teaming with its tank mitigation caps and huge damage buff cap, solo it has no reason to exist. And I *still* solo a lot even though the percentage is drastically reduced from how I was before the snap.

 

Suggestion: Raise Brute base damage modifier to be exactly between tanks and scrappers. Increase mitigation base modifiers to be exactly between tanks and scrappers. Lower caps to be exactly between tanks and scrappers.

 

Thank you for your time.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Apparition]

Something needs to be done, either with Tankers (nerf), Brutes (buff), or a combination of both.  Brutes right now are in a very bad place in the game for everything but farming.  Quite a few people I know agree that the only legitimate reason to play a Brute ATM is for Energy Aura.  Otherwise you are guaranteed to be better off playing either a Tanker or Scrapper.

[The_Warpact]

I agree, my go to AT was a broot, now I have more tanks.

Broots need some love.

[Psyonico]

3 minutes ago, Apparition said:

Something needs to be done, either with Tankers (nerf), Brutes (buff), or a combination of both.  Brutes right now are in a very bad place in the game for everything but farming.  Quite a few people I know agree that the only legitimate reason to play a Brute ATM is for Energy Aura.  Otherwise you are guaranteed to be better off playing either a Tanker or Scrapper.

Why are brutes better at Energy Aura than Scrappers?  I legitimately want to know what the difference is.

[Apparition]

Just now, Psyonico said:

Why are brutes better at Energy Aura than Scrappers?  I legitimately want to know what the difference is.

 

Better taunt aura.  I was more referring to Tankers though, since Tankers don’t get Energy Aura.

[Ston]

I made a thread about this awhile back in the brute forum and it turned into a pretty informative debate. 

 

I used that AE office map simulator to do some testing on brainstorm with dark melee + fiery aura. The builds were mostly identical with the exception of ATO's and a few other slots.. but high-end, purple'd builds regardless. The tanker was faster by a considerable amount. After that I dabbled in some other meta combos for awhile like rad/ss and shield/em. I'm 100% on team 'tankers got overtuned'. Their damage output is bananas now. 

 

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by Cirque

[arcane]

I have maybe 9 or so brutes. Only times besides my 5 /fire brutes that I picked a brute specifically because I thought it was my best option was for Regen and Energy Aura. In both cases I was wanting to play non-tank sets but play them like a tank. I would’ve played them as scrappers but I personally like melees to feel like brick walls so I just don’t have very many scrappers/stalkers (yet).

 

I’ve made a lot of tankers since this debate first started to pop up in the forums and they’ve quickly become my favorite melee AT. So you could say I’ve come around to agreeing more with ole Bill than I used to. Helps that I’m a sucker for proc monsters.

Edited May 19, 2021 by arcane

[Ukase]

Opinions will vary. Why? Because builds and powersets will vary! 

I just finished leveling a mace/fire scrapper. I have determined that scrappers are fairly worthless. 

"But, man, the dps!"

No, sorry. When you have to chase down the mobs, you lose whatever dps edge you may have had. I won't say it's not fun, but it's not the dps king, not even close to my brutes or blasters. Anyone that tells you differently....they have built their scrapper differently. And that is the primary point I want to make. Each player builds their character differently - if they're not snagging one from the boards or some other place. One Brute may have 23% damage bonus from powers & sets, while another might only have 6%. One guy takes assault, another guy doesn't. One tank takes assault, the other doesn't. One tank has assault for hybrid, while the scrapper goes melee to get some sort of taunt going. It's all going to vary. Even the same AT and powerset is an apples to orange comparison due to build/power selection differences, and play style differences. Even if the builds are exactly the same  - if the content chosen differs, the in-game experience will be different, and so will the anecdotal conclusions. 

This notion that you want to rework an AT or two based on your own experience with them is just not enough data to suit me, particularly when it flies in the face of my own anecdotal evidence. 

Give scrappers a taunt aura and it will all be fine. But that's just my own experience. I can hardly expect everyone else to feel the same way. 

Tank damage is still woeful compared to a brute or a scrapper. So the cone is larger. Big deal.  Only on my fire/ice tank have I even noticed that being a benefit. But, I'm still working through all the armor/powerset combos, so my jury is still out. Do not nerf tanks. Yes, buff brutes. Mine could all use more damage, as the fury bar rarely gets mine much over 190% damage bonus. Let that fury bar burn higher when fighting. Seems like it should reach the cap without inspiration use or external buffs, but it never does. But then again, if it did, everything would die too quickly and we'd be back to City of Brutes again. Wishful thinking, I suppose. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 minutes ago, Ukase said:

When you have to chase down the mobs, you lose whatever dps edge you may have had.

 

That's not true. As mentioned in the OP, standard clear all times favor the scrapper heavily in a wide variety of the test missions being built in AE as well as standard experience with the AT regardless of the incredible nuisance of runners.

[Ston]

 

15 minutes ago, Ukase said:

Give scrappers a taunt aura and it will all be fine. But that's just my own experience. I can hardly expect everyone else to feel the same way. 

 

Would also add that fiery aura isn't really a good comparison when it comes to scrappers and stalkers. Fiery Embrace is nice, but aside from that it isn't great on those AT's due to the lack of taunt aura. However, there are a handful of scrapper secondaries that do have a taunt aura so it makes clearing things very quick.. especially with bio and rad. 

Edited May 19, 2021 by Cirque

[BZRKR]

+1 for Buffing Brutes.

 

[Ukase]

12 minutes ago, Cirque said:

 

 

Would also add that fiery aura isn't really a good comparison when it comes to scrappers and stalkers. Fiery Embrace is nice, but aside from that it isn't great on those AT's due to the lack of taunt aura. However, there are a handful of scrapper secondaries that do have a taunt aura so it makes clearing things very quick.. especially with bio and rad. 

Which goes to my point - we can't arbitrarily nerf/buff with the drastic differences in powersets between ATs. At least - before we do, we should take a very close look at how said change would play out. 

 

[arcane]

Maybe an unpopular opinion but I don’t think Scrappers should have taunt auras.

[Apparition]

9 minutes ago, arcane said:

Maybe an unpopular opinion but I don’t think Scrappers should have taunt auras.

 

It's an opinion shared by Captain Powerhouse.  He already declared a couple of years ago that no new Scrapper secondaries would have a taunt aura.

[Haijinx]

Well this was predictable. 

 

--------------

Perhaps a milder buff?

 

fix their ATOs to be more useful.

 

Their Fury generation ATO was basically rendered moot by the Brute adjustments that came with the Tank upgrade.  (Not that it was great before that)

 

Rationale being, since they broke it, they might as well fix it. 

 

 

 

[summers]

During The Great Debates I pointed out that I would not bother making a Brute again and just roll Tankers. This wasn't quite true, I did roll a 50 /Regen Brute which was a waste of time.

 

At 50 Tankers are just so much better, but below that I feel Brute are a more fun experience since they get to keep their attacks when exemplaring.

[Sovera]

For years and years Tankers were this useless AT only die hard fans played while every advice was to just roll a Brute. Tankers get buffed, Brutes become middle of the pack, and Tankers are on the call for nerfs.

 

Seriously?

 

[MTeague]

4 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

While solo, the scrapper kicks the crap out of the brute and the tank on standard +4 clear alls.

While solo, the tank kicks the crap out of the brute and scrapper on being able to survive Werner rules level content. (Enemies buffed, players debuffed, no insps, no faceplants, no temps.)

 

The scrapper takes down a pylon in 3 mins. The brute, 4 mins. The tank 4.5 mins.

 

So far I don't see a problem. 

Scrappers are supposed to have greater damage output, and less survivability.

Tanks are supposed to be kings of survivability, and decent damage output.

Brutes in very good at both, and kings at neither.

 

Isn't that literally what's called for in the numeric ratings you see when you make a new character?

 

 

Not every archtype has to have "a niche" or something that they'r absolutely 100% the best thing for ever. 

It's OK to have some who are just good at several things without being THE BEST at any of them.

[Bill Z Bubba]

That chart (which I've always thought to be misleading) puts tanks at 10/7 for survivability and melee damage.  Brutes at 8/9 and scrappers at 7/10.

 

Those values are not accurate to how the game currently sits.

 

It'd be closer to tanks 10/7, brutes 8/8 and scrappers 7/10.

 

If we go with just the chart, which we shouldn't, brutes should be at 8.5/8.5.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

For years and years Tankers were this useless AT only die hard fans played while every advice was to just roll a Brute. Tankers get buffed, Brutes become middle of the pack, and Tankers are on the call for nerfs.

 

Seriously?

 

Yea, seriously. When you're down to "well, they rock in AE" but might as well go with one of the other two for everything else, there's a problem that needs fixin.

 

There need be no nerf to tanks if brutes get the buffs requested.

[agentx5]

5 hours ago, Apparition said:

Something needs to be done, either with Tankers (nerf), Brutes (buff), or a combination of both.  Brutes right now are in a very bad place in the game for everything but farming.  Quite a few people I know agree that the only legitimate reason to play a Brute ATM is for Energy Aura.  Otherwise you are guaranteed to be better off playing either a Tanker or Scrapper.

 

1.  Um.... Farming with Brutes is what the vast majority of Brutes are doing, unless I'm mistaken.  Of course it's been too long since we've gotten updated numbers (looking at you HC Devs!), but last time I checked it was FIRE FARM TIME for brutes the majority of the time, Fire Aura not Energy Aura.

(I have one too, he's named Julius Caesius, he's a paladin basically with a massive titan weapon sword and a holy fire aura)

 

2. Solution for Brutes = aggro cap increase to 24?  😄 

 

  

52 minutes ago, MTeague said:

 

So far I don't see a problem. 

Scrappers are supposed to have greater damage output, and less survivability.

Tanks are supposed to be kings of survivability, and decent damage output.

Brutes in very good at both, and kings at neither.

 

Isn't that literally what's called for in the numeric ratings you see when you make a new character?

 

 

Not every archtype has to have "a niche" or something that they'r absolutely 100% the best thing for ever. 

It's OK to have some who are just good at several things without being THE BEST at any of them.

 

This.

Edited May 20, 2021 by agentx5

[Steampunkette]

Buff Brutes?

 

Okay. So... how would I buff Brutes in the current state of the game... hmm.

 

Increase the damage buff of Fury by 75%.

 

At 100 Fury (Almost impossible to get) you'd wind up getting 175% increased damage instead of 100% increased damage, allowing them to solo better without altering their Team-Function at all (The damage Cap remains the same, the base damage values remain the same, so getting Fulcrum Shifted to your cap changes nothing)

 

Assume a power deals 100 damage baseline:

 

1) A tanker has a .95 scale so with enhancements doubling their damage would be at 190. (95x2)

2) Scrapper has a 1.125 and doubling with enhancements it puts them at 225. (112.5x2)

3) Brute has .75 scale so with Enhancements and 175% damage from Fury they'd be at 206.25. (75x2.75)

 

Though with the Brute's Fury most of the time capping out right around 80ish percent you're only looking at around 140% damage increase, which actually puts them at 180 damage (75x2.4)

 

So maybe it needs to go with the full 200%? That'd be 160% damage buff at 80% Fury for 195 damage, just slightly ahead of the Tanker (75x2.6)

[arcane]

I thought Brute fury already did like 200% +damage at 100% full. Shows how much I study the numbers I guess.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, arcane said:

I thought Brute fury already did like 200% +damage at 100% full. Shows how much I study the numbers I guess.

 

It does. 1 pt fury = 2% dam buff.

[PeregrineFalcon]

Some one please correct me if my math is wrong, but I think it's actually more like this:

Assume a power deals 100 damage baseline and 3 even level SOs = +94.99% damage (after ED).

1. Tanker = .95 with enhancements damage = 185
2. Scrapper = 1.125 with enhancements damage = 219
3. Brute = .75 with enhancements damage = 146

•  with 50% Fury = 221
•  with 75% Fury = 259
•  with 100% Fury = 296