More Fear protection

[Jarrakul]

Fear is a surprisingly-nasty status effect when used on player characters. Your ability to take actions while feared is extremely limited, even while being attacked. It's not quite as bad as hold or disorient, but it's pretty close to disorient in practice. Plus it has the added problem of being a bit... RP-breaking, for a lot of characters. It's one thing to get stunned by a heavy hit or restrained by telekinetic force, but it's quite another for a supposedly-brave hero to cower in terror of their enemies.

 

Now, enemies that inflict fear are relatively rare, but I can testify from running an elec-armor tanker that they're not that rare. Longbow and Apparitions sometimes manage to Fear me for most of the fight, which isn't the most fun gameplay experience I've ever had, let me tell you. And it's not just elec that has a problem. In fact, only four melee defense sets in the game provide fear protection: dark, shield, willpower, and ninjitsu. If it were just dark and willpower, I could kind of understand the choice thematically, but surely we don't think ninjas and people with shields are inherently braver than everyone else? Mechanically, it makes for a weird and situationally-very-severe hole on your mez protection that you can't really do much about. Tactics helps a bit by providing fear resistance, but it still doesn't provide true protection.

If you agree with these complaints, I have four suggested solutions, one or two of which would likely be sufficient on their own:

• Add Fear protection to the mez protection abilities from most/all defensive sets. If only most, probably also implement one of the other suggestions.
• Add Fear protection to Tactics, in the same vein as its existing Confuse protection.
• Add a new pool power (possibly to the Presence pool, it could use some love) that provides Fear protection. Probably should do more than just that. Maybe a weak +resist all toggle with Fear protection and a low stamina cost as a fear/res counterpart to Combat Jumping?
• Add Fear protection IOs or set bonuses in the same vein as the current knock protection IOs and set bonuses.

[Night]

[siolfir]

If you don't like , there's always  or . Those would require teaming, though, so...

 

As far as the ideas, if you're going to add Fear protection to everything then why have any holes in any defense sets? Yes, protection could be added to Tactics but that power already does a lot, Fear doesn't actually prevents from ever attacking, and as you mention it provides resistance to shorten the duration already. A new pool power in Presence wouldn't work, it would have to be added to an existing power or replace one that's there; of those the only self-affecting power is Unrelenting. Sure, you could add it there - and it fits the idea - but it would be available less often than a Break Free drop so would it really matter? As for Fear protection in IOs... I can easily say that from a player's perspective I would much rather have hold, stun, and sleep protection before fear protection but I'm pretty sure those are all off the table based on how the discussion around Rune of Protection turned out.

[Jarrakul]

4 hours ago, Night said:

 

I mean, why have any mez protection in the game at all if the answer is just to chug Break Frees like nachos?

Edited May 23, 2021 by Jarrakul

[Jarrakul]

7 minutes ago, siolfir said:

If you don't like , there's always  or . Those would require teaming, though, so...

 

As far as the ideas, if you're going to add Fear protection to everything then why have any holes in any defense sets? Yes, protection could be added to Tactics but that power already does a lot, Fear doesn't actually prevents from ever attacking, and as you mention it provides resistance to shorten the duration already. A new pool power in Presence wouldn't work, it would have to be added to an existing power or replace one that's there; of those the only self-affecting power is Unrelenting. Sure, you could add it there - and it fits the idea - but it would be available less often than a Break Free drop so would it really matter? As for Fear protection in IOs... I can easily say that from a player's perspective I would much rather have hold, stun, and sleep protection before fear protection but I'm pretty sure those are all off the table based on how the discussion around Rune of Protection turned out.

 

I'm all for encouraging teaming, but this is more "pick one of a few specific sets or team with someone using a few specific sets", which is... at best a very awkward way to do that. If no personal defense sets had fear protection and more support sets gave it, that would work better to support this goal. As it stands, it's just a bit weird, where both the melee ATs and the support ATs just have to hope their teams have the right powersets for that particular synergy to be fruitful.

As for other holes, I'll admit I haven't gone through every set and checked, but I'm not aware of any defensive set with a Hold or Disorient hole. The holes tend to be Immobilize, Knockback, Fear, and Confuse, and with the exception of Fear, you can build to correct all of those, albeit at some cost. Which feels pretty reasonable to me. I think adding a similar dynamic to Fear is a good option, but it does have the consequence of making more personal mez protection available to non-melee architypes, which the devs seem to want to avoid (please correct me if you disagree there, but that's what I took from the Rune of Protection discussion). The advantage of adding Fear protect to most/all melee sets is that no non-melee ATs would get it.

Re: the specific suggestions, I share your general reaction that Tactics is already pretty good and probably doesn't need a buff, though this would be a relatively situational one so I don't think it'd be much of a buff. I am also fully suggesting that one of the powers in Presence could be replaced. I don't really care which, except that it's probably reasonable for it to be one of the first two. They're pretty bad, currently, and I doubt many players would miss either one (though, this being the internet, I'm sure we can find a counter-example). Fear protection IOs are an interesting option because, again as I understand the Rune of Protection discussion, the devs basically don't want non-melee architypes to get a lot of reliable personal mez protection. Adding a whole bevy of mez protection IOs would absolutely give those architypes that protection. Adding just Fear protection would definitely not, since Fear is dramatically less common than Hold or Disorient, or even Sleep. Those other protections would be objectively better, as you suggest, which is exactly why the devs aren't going to add them. I would argue that Fear is another animal in that regard, though if I were a dev I doubt this is the option I would pursue.

[Naraka]

5 hours ago, Jarrakul said:

Fear is a surprisingly-nasty status effect when used on player characters. Your ability to take actions while feared is extremely limited, even while being attacked. It's not quite as bad as hold or disorient, but it's pretty close to disorient in practice. Plus it has the added problem of being a bit... RP-breaking, for a lot of characters. It's one thing to get stunned by a heavy hit or restrained by telekinetic force, but it's quite another for a supposedly-brave hero to cower in terror of their enemies.

 

I think it's perfectly within reason that a brave hero be brought down to his knees in fear if a strong enough influence or an influence isolated from that brave hero's strength (Superman is pretty damn strong and invulnerable but even he can be put in such a state in a variety of ways).

 

If anything, a better example would be if your character isn't organic at all.  How do you cause fear in a computer?

 

5 hours ago, Jarrakul said:

In fact, only four melee defense sets in the game provide fear protection: dark, shield, willpower, and ninjitsu. If it were just dark and willpower, I could kind of understand the choice thematically, but surely we don't think ninjas and people with shields are inherently braver than everyone else?

I think the way this works, in theme, is Ninjas typically use deception and trickery.  It's not that they are brave or fearless but rather trying to play with their minds or use illusions on them is less effective (you can't con a conman, so to speak).  As for the Shield, I think yes, their theme is supposed to embody strength of character and bravery (a la Captain America).

 

Not saying the theme has to be adhered to by all characters, just saying that might be why it exists on those sets.

 

5 hours ago, Jarrakul said:

 

• Add Fear protection to the mez protection abilities from most/all defensive sets. If only most, probably also implement one of the other suggestions.
• Add Fear protection to Tactics, in the same vein as its existing Confuse protection.
• Add a new pool power (possibly to the Presence pool, it could use some love) that provides Fear protection. Probably should do more than just that. Maybe a weak +resist all toggle with Fear protection and a low stamina cost as a fear/res counterpart to Combat Jumping?
• Add Fear protection IOs or set bonuses in the same vein as the current knock protection IOs and set bonuses.

 

I don't agree with your premise, mainly because I don't like that melee's are practically immune to most mez completely.  It really creates a have-and-have-not situation among the ATs.  Maybe a +mag but a -duration as the level goes up.

 

Abandoning the above suggestion and coming to a compromise: what about some kind of IO that reduces one of your mez protections to increase another?  Like a "-1 Stun, +2 Fear" IO to make this a give-and-take addition that requires choice.

 

The other would be improving the Presence pool to have one of its later powers provide some Fear resistance and maybe a low mag protection but you'd still be vulnerable to a lot of stacking fear.

[Naraka]

9 minutes ago, Jarrakul said:

As for other holes, I'll admit I haven't gone through every set and checked, but I'm not aware of any defensive set with a Hold or Disorient hole. 

 

Oh, let's talk about that!

[Jarrakul]

So, I'm working under the current paradigm of, effectively, melee ATs having near-immunity to most mezzes by default. Because that is the current paradigm, and so exceptions stand out and feel weird. If you think such high levels of mez protection are a problem that needs to be fixed, I'm very happy to have that discussion. It think it's an interesting thought, and definitely not without merit. But it also very much sounds like the sort of thing that should be its own thread.

 

An IO like "-1 Stun, +2 Fear" would be interesting, but I think it would only work well in a paradigm with lower mez protections. If I'm sitting at mag 12 Disorient protection, I can stand to lose a point or three and still expect to basically never get stunned in PvE.

[Jarrakul]

19 minutes ago, Night said:

Why not? You should always have at least one breakfree on you in case of an emergency, like say, a mez effect you're weak to. If you don't wanna be bothered by what is already a very rare mez effect, you can always go Willpower or Dark Armor. Or team. As mentioned above, there is a variety team-based fear protection sources from teaming, including the unique AoE fear protection that Shadow Fall provides as a constant toggle.

 

My main is Willpower, I have a Dark Armor toon, and I have a regular team. But I'm not teaming 100% of the time, when I do it's very often not with anyone who has a Fear protection power, and I have no interest in playing the same few powersets over and over. I also typically run with two break-frees on my melee characters. You go into a mission against the Apparitions, that isn't gonna be enough, and the Break Free drop rate is pretty low so good luck refilling without leaving the mission, which is just a pain. Again, I ask, if everyone is just supposed to chug Break Frees, why do we have personal mez protection at all? Or, to turn the question around, what's the merit of making some melee ATs chug Break Frees on some missions when soloing or in some groups?

[Alchemystic]

Fear is one of the uncommon mez effects, so it would stand to reason that protection against it would also be uncommon.

[siolfir]

20 minutes ago, Jarrakul said:

Or, to turn the question around, what's the merit of making some melee ATs chug Break Frees on some missions when soloing or in some groups?

The same merit as there is in not allowing mez protection for some ATs on most missions against most groups, but that discussion belongs, as you said, in its own thread. I also took the same thing from the Rune of Protection discussion, which is that the devs want mez to have a place in the game, but I also don't feel that it should only apply to certain ATs.

 

Also, inspirations can be combined and/or emailed to yourself - it's pretty hard to run out of Break Frees when you're only using them in rare encounters against specific groups while using some armor sets in the ATs that have them (not specifically melee ATs, either - see: Sentinels).

 

Edit to add: and all of that said, it doesn't matter what any of the players in this thread say - as I said in another recent thread in this section, it's up to the devs, and they're the ones you need to convice. But given how the RoP conversation went, I don't see this one being a likely change.

Edited May 24, 2021 by siolfir

[Shadowsleuth]

Would the Steadfast Protection & Gladiator's Armor Procs cover fear as well?

 

If they do, since the OP is using an electric armor tanker, just slot them in your auto (Grounded).

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, Jarrakul said:

Again, I ask, if everyone is just supposed to chug Break Frees, why do we have personal mez protection at all? Or, to turn the question around, what's the merit of making some melee ATs chug Break Frees on some missions when soloing or in some groups?

 

Well, break frees aren't meant to be chugged, they're reactionary most of the time.  You can use them when something gets through your tools to protect yourself.  If you use them pre-emptively, just make sure you have enough left over.

 

Why do we have mez protection at all?  It's typically given to melee ATs as a fallback to needing to get close to their targets to engage.  Not having comprehensive protection to all mez all the time isn't congruent with having NO mez protection.

 

As for some armor sets having protections that others don't, you have to consider that those armor sets also have powers that can make them practically unkillable.  Having some holes likely were the only means of defending against such odds.

 

But I tell you what, how about we change the armor Tier 9s to add some Fear protection.  How about that?

[BrandX]

8 hours ago, Jarrakul said:

Fear is a surprisingly-nasty status effect when used on player characters. Your ability to take actions while feared is extremely limited, even while being attacked. It's not quite as bad as hold or disorient, but it's pretty close to disorient in practice. Plus it has the added problem of being a bit... RP-breaking, for a lot of characters. It's one thing to get stunned by a heavy hit or restrained by telekinetic force, but it's quite another for a supposedly-brave hero to cower in terror of their enemies.

 

Now, enemies that inflict fear are relatively rare, but I can testify from running an elec-armor tanker that they're not that rare. Longbow and Apparitions sometimes manage to Fear me for most of the fight, which isn't the most fun gameplay experience I've ever had, let me tell you. And it's not just elec that has a problem. In fact, only four melee defense sets in the game provide fear protection: dark, shield, willpower, and ninjitsu. If it were just dark and willpower, I could kind of understand the choice thematically, but surely we don't think ninjas and people with shields are inherently braver than everyone else? Mechanically, it makes for a weird and situationally-very-severe hole on your mez protection that you can't really do much about. Tactics helps a bit by providing fear resistance, but it still doesn't provide true protection.

If you agree with these complaints, I have four suggested solutions, one or two of which would likely be sufficient on their own:

• Add Fear protection to the mez protection abilities from most/all defensive sets. If only most, probably also implement one of the other suggestions.
• Add Fear protection to Tactics, in the same vein as its existing Confuse protection.
• Add a new pool power (possibly to the Presence pool, it could use some love) that provides Fear protection. Probably should do more than just that. Maybe a weak +resist all toggle with Fear protection and a low stamina cost as a fear/res counterpart to Combat Jumping?
• Add Fear protection IOs or set bonuses in the same vein as the current knock protection IOs and set bonuses.

 

A lot of brave heroes have been in cower in terror stories.  Though, it's not generally cower in terror of their enemies, while instead, a power inducing effect, which is what is being used on the character.

 

Like an illusionist bringing out the hero's worst fear.  Or a psychic digging deep into the heroes psyche.

 

It is not however a "I'm cowering in fear because I'm surrounded by criminals!"

 

There is status resist set bonuses and IOs.  So the hero gets hit with the illusion/fear inducing/psychic power and shrugs it off quick.

[MTeague]

8 hours ago, Jarrakul said:

Plus it has the added problem of being a bit... RP-breaking, for a lot of characters. It's one thing to get stunned by a heavy hit or restrained by telekinetic force, but it's quite another for a supposedly-brave hero to cower in terror of their enemies.

 

Defenders, Controllers, Blasters, etc ren't brave? 

"Bravery" or lack thereof, has nothing to do with Status Protection. 

 

I get that Fear can be irksome. It's one type of effect that Super Reflexes doesn't protect you against, and a Non-Positional Fear effect just parks you. You can attack a little if you get hit, but, if you're /SR or some other defensive set, you're probably not even going to get hit. You're just parked.  That said, I'm perfectly fine with this.  There ought to be some degree of "Can Opener" for each AT / Powersets.  A hero with absolutely no weaknesses who cannot be stopped any anything ever is Boring AF.

[Outrider_01]

2 hours ago, Jarrakul said:

The holes tend to be Immobilize, Knockback, Fear, and Confuse, and with the exception of Fear, you can build to correct all of those, albeit at some cost.

Immobility, like you can still move the body but not the position and insert some thematic RP about able to counter it with your mind.  Knockback is sort of in between though, where as Immoblize/Fear/Confuse cause you to stand in place vs a hold/stun where you basically do nothing.

 

3 hours ago, Jarrakul said:

I mean, why have any mez protection in the game at all if the answer is just to chug Break Frees like nachos?

Why can't squishy have mez protection?  Melee already get more then 80% of the standard status affects protected, but squishy have nothing beyond a few click powers or pool powers.  None.  So you get a break free, which is just bonus for melee.

[MTeague]

1 hour ago, Jarrakul said:

You go into a mission against the Apparitions, that isn't gonna be enough, and the Break Free drop rate is pretty low so good luck refilling without leaving the mission, which is just a pain. Again, I ask, if everyone is just supposed to chug Break Frees, why do we have personal mez protection at all? Or, to turn the question around, what's the merit of making some melee ATs chug Break Frees on some missions when soloing or in some groups?

 

Props for going into First Ward / Night Ward. Not nearly enough do. 

 

But my Staff / Willpower scrapper and my Assault Rifle / Martial blaster both solo'd all of First Ward, at content level (not flashbacked).  The scrapper at +2x3, the blaster at +1x2.  It's possible. I did have to pay attention to which kinds of mobs use which kinds of effects and prioritize accordingly.  My characters were lvl 25-29 as they progressed, but they were reasoanbly tricked out with IO's in the slots they did have, so I probably had a moderate amount of status RESIST on each.  And the Blaster was always free to use T1-T2 attacks regardless if feared (but she was significantly squishier, too). I did have to use Captain-Hit-And-Fade tactics for some areas.  But it ought to be possible.

[Doomguide2005]

     While Tactics doesn't have Fear (i.e. Terrorize) protection it does provide Fear resistance.  Doesn't help unless teamed but Vengeance does carry Terrorize protection.  Team with some of the Faithful Fans of Fallout SG 😃

     @Shadowsleuth Are you asking about the +3% defense uniques?  Those don't give direct protection from Terrorize but as long as the defense applies to the attack causing the mez they would offer a chance to avoid the attack and therefore avoid the mez.  In that sense Luck inspirations would also help avoid becoming hit by Terrorizing attacks.

    And if you use Amplifiers the Defense Amplifier offers Terrorize Protection.

[Shadowsleuth]

1 hour ago, Doomguide2005 said:

          @Shadowsleuth Are you asking about the +3% defense uniques?  Those don't give direct protection from Terrorize but as long as the defense applies to the attack causing the mez they would offer a chance to avoid the attack and therefore avoid the mez.  In that sense Luck inspirations would also help avoid becoming hit by Terrorizing attacks.

    And if you use Amplifiers the Defense Amplifier offers Terrorize Protection.

 

Thanks for the info. 

[Uun]

I don't believe fear (or confuse) protection should be added to the base mezz protection in more armor sets. I could get behind adding it to Rune of Protection.

[SwitchFade]

Sorry, no vote.

[arcane]

Yeah I don’t see a need here. And my invuln tanker was getting feared only just last night. They’ve got the mez types that can do the most serious harm (toggle dropping / suppression) consistently provided across all armor sets, and every other mez type is hit or miss depending on set. Works fine in practice to me.