issue 27 [Beta] Patch Notes for May 28th, 2021

[Glacier Peak]

20 minutes ago, Mr. Vee said:

I'm not saying don't fix it, I'm asking that it be fixed in a way that doesn't cut it back off for the 35-45 range. I would think the best solution would be to make it 35+ but the star holder must be 45+. There are already several things in the game where different conditions apply for star and joining. That wouldn't completely solve the problem as well as making hami scale completely would, as there might be occasional cases where the star disconnects and no one else is 50, but it'd be better and wouldn't be cutting off a leg to save a toe.

The fact that it was available at Level 35 is what isn't working as intended. It is a Level 45+ Task Force.

[Mr. Vee]

It was changed, intention of issue 10 devs is irrelevant to what it is now. I've said my piece and I'm tired of arguing this.

Edited May 30, 2021 by Mr. Vee
typo

[Glacier Peak]

4 minutes ago, Mr. Vee said:

It was changed, intention of issue 10 devs is irrelevant to what it is now. I've said my piece and I'm tired of arguing this.

This wasn't the result of Issue 10 devs. It was changed after the shutdown.

[Mr. Vee]

Read what I said again.

[Wavicle]

Yeah, a lot of bad changes were made during the score years, and a lot of the changes so far in HC have been to smooth those rough edges (Blaster secondaries, I'm looking at you).

[ABlueThingy]

This is why the Devs shouldn't ever let anything go.  People get real entitled to stuff.

[Faultline]

23 hours ago, Mr. Vee said:

I would think the best solution would be to make it 35+ but the star holder must be 45+. There are already several things in the game where different conditions apply for star and joining.

 

Can you cite an example of a Task Force that works this way? As far as I know, this is not possible. All members in a Task Force must meet the minimum level to start it.

[arcane]

14 hours ago, ABlueThingy said:

This is why the Devs shouldn't ever let anything go.  People get real entitled to stuff.

And it’s why you have to be particularly cautious about giving people anything in the first place. If it turns out to have been a bad idea, you’re likely to be stuck with it anyway.

[Mr. Vee]

2 hours ago, Faultline said:

 

Can you cite an example of a Task Force that works this way? As far as I know, this is not possible. All members in a Task Force must meet the minimum level to start it.

I meant different conditions for starting/joining like the morty/katie/hess unlocks, not specifically a level difference. The only level specific example I'm aware of is with ouro where you have to be at the max range for the arcs to pop up but you can join at the minimum range. Was just thinking there might be a way to flag level in the same way as badge for star holder but I'm not a computers, much less familiar with CoH code so no idea if actually doable. Maybe have Lady Grey give the "you're not high enough" dialogue up to 45 but have the member check be 35? Again, no idea how those work.

 

I'd think a pop-up warning about the difficulty could work as well. Really if we're concerned about people unfamiliar with the TF failing at hami a warning about the need for adequate holds wouldn't be amiss, either. I get it if cutting it off is the way y'all end up dealing with the issue, just wanted to ask for something else since it'd really affect my play on every future character. 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Mr. Vee
added a sentence to middle

[Mr. Vee]

Perhaps an "Impressed Lady Grey" badge that awards when both level 45 and a member of Vanguard that allows you to start LG?

[Faultline]

1 minute ago, Mr. Vee said:

I meant different conditions for starting/joining like the morty/katie/hess unlocks, not specifically a level difference. The only level specific example I'm aware of is with ouro where you have to be at the max range for the arcs to pop up but you can join at the minimum range. Was just thinking there might be a way to flag level in the same way as badge for star holder but I'm not a computers, much less familiar with CoH code so no idea if actually doable. I'd think a pop-up warning could work. I get it if cutting it off is the way y'all end up dealing with the issue, just wanted to ask for something else since it'd really affect my play on every future character. 

 

• The badge or token check is on the contact, not the Task Force. When the check happens, it's no different to you talking to any of the contacts in your list, so no requirements are checked on your team. When the Task Force starts, there are checks on the story arc (task forces and story arcs are the same in this context) and those do check your team for requirements. For a player it's hard to differentiate the two since it all happens on the same window, but from this side there's a clear distinction on the checks that happen just when you talk to a contact, and the ones that happen when you try to start a story arc.
• Ouroboros is similar in that you can consider the crystal interface to be a contact that displays every arc in the game; it has its own set of checks (have you completed the arc before or are you above its max level or are you at the level cap), then it checks if any contact would offer the arc to you personally (this is what stops you from seeing EAT story arcs on a normal character), then it checks the story arc requirements. Ouroboros doesn't allow you to skip existing requirements, it just adds more of its own on top.
• I did look into reducing the whole arc to 35, but the Weakened Hamidon is only part of the issue. There are several enemies that only spawn above 40, some of which only appear on the TF and should be no problem to reduce (Dra'gon, Honoree, the Horsemen Four) but others are part of the normal Rikti faction (such as Mesmerist boss) and reducing them would cause them to start spawning on level 35 missions where they never spawned before. At that point it becomes a balance concern I'm not ready to deal with, since I know some of the late game Rikti can be pretty brutal and introducing them to lower level missions could be a problem.

[GraspingVileTerror]

Positron 2 has conditions for the Team Leader having to meet a requirement which the rest of the Team doesn't need.

 

In this particular scenario, we have a bit of a challenge in that there aren't Achievement Badges at 5 level increments, but rather at every 10 levels.  But we've also seen that it's possible to have Badges which don't count toward the Badge Total.  While it's a few extra hoops to jump through in terms of development, adding "invisible" Badges (or some other character flag) may allow the Homecoming Team to flag Task Forces with a minimum level for the Leader.

 

Perhaps now is an ideal testing bed for such a feature.  Marking the Lady Grey Task Force as requiring the Leader to have such a new flag/Badge as the requirement would get the proposed effect, wouldn't it, @Faultline?  See how the full game community reacts to such a feature, and then examine rolling it out further if it's well-received.  

 

 

 

WHOOP.  Seems @Mr. Vee beat me to the proposal as I was writing this.

 

[GraspingVileTerror]

HA!  And posted the same time as @Faultline.

Thanks for the additional details related to the potential factors related to Dra'gon, Honouree, et al.

So, yeah.  35 as a base minimum level for Lady Grey is definitely looking like too much effort to establish.

I still think it may be worth utilizing this opportunity to examine the proposed alternatives for Leader/Team level differentials in locked-Team content.

[Wavicle]

Nothing wrong with a few TFs being high level only.

[Mr. Vee]

@Faultline Would it be possible to make LG not offer the TF to anyone unless introduced as a contact? She could be introduced by Levantera to level 45 members of Vanguard or pop automatically at 45 like Maria Jenkins does?

[Bionic_Flea]

While I would prefer for it to stay at 35 either as is or adjusted, since there are critters that are 40+, could we split the difference and make Lady Grey a 40+ TF?

 

 

[Faultline]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Vee said:

@Faultline Would it be possible to make LG not offer the TF to anyone unless introduced as a contact? She could be introduced by Levantera to level 45 members of Vanguard or pop automatically at 45 like Maria Jenkins does?

 

Task Force contacts are never introduced by other contacts, that would create all sorts of problems. You can certainly add additional checks (for everyone to have a badge for example) but I don't see how that's relevant since the point here is to reduce requirements, not add more.

 

11 minutes ago, GraspingVileTerror said:

Positron 2 has conditions for the Team Leader having to meet a requirement which the rest of the Team doesn't need.

 

Check on the contact, not story arc, as described before. Positron in particular is messy, because it's three contacts, not one: when you talk to it, you get a "metacontact" which checks the requirements for two other contacts, and when you click on either of the two options at the bottom you're talking to a different contact, internally. The Positron that stands in Steel Canyon is Positron_2, which has a level range of 10-16 (but as a metacontact this is meaningless and not checked) and it links to the contact Positron_2_Task1 if you're 8-15, and to the contact Positron_2_Task2 if you're 11-16 and have the PositronRevampPart1 badge. There aren't many metacontacts in the game, in fact I think Positron is the only one remaining.

 

8 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

While I would prefer for it to stay at 35 either as is or adjusted, since there are critters that are 40+, could we split the difference and make Lady Grey a 40+ TF?

 

That should not be a problem. I do not think there are any Rikti critters that are 45+ only, but I could be wrong.

[GraspingVileTerror]

Thank you for the additional information, @Faultline.  It's very helpful.

If you're willing to share even more with us, I am curious to hear:  How much of a pain are these "metacontacts" to work with?  What sort of downsides do they have?  How much of a challenge would it be to implement more if the downsides/risks are minimal?

[Mr. Vee]

I'd be satisfied with the 40+ compromise. 

[Faultline]

3 minutes ago, GraspingVileTerror said:

If you're willing to share even more with us, I am curious to hear:  How much of a pain are these "metacontacts" to work with?  What sort of downsides do they have?  How much of a challenge would it be to implement more if the downsides/risks are minimal?

 

They are a solution in search of a problem. They won't do what you want here, because again, even if you skip the checks on the contact, the story arc has its own requirements that are checked for the whole team. Changing the contact that gives you the story arc won't remove those requirements from the story arc.

 

Positron is pretty much the only situation in the game where a metacontact remotely makes sense, because a Task Force contact can only ever give their one and only Task Force. The metacontact is a layer on top that makes the Positron standing in Steel not give you a Task Force, but instead give one of two other contacts, each with a different Task Force to give.

[GraspingVileTerror]

I think there is some confusion here, and I'm not sure which direction it's going.

 

Let's say, for example, Lady Grey became such a Metacontact like Positron.

 

Speaking to (clicking on) her gives a dialogue branch:

-one which lead to LadyGrey_2, who has some new Level 45 flag/Badge requirement, but assuming that check is successful, this Contact offers the Task Force with a wider range (for example, 35 to 50.  Or, dare to dream, 1 to 50).

-another branch leads to LadyGrey_3, who could be used for all kinds of interesting plot or story activities.

 

Would this not present a scenario similar to what we see with Positron?

The Team Leader must meet the Badge AND Level requirements of both the Contact and the Task Force, while the Team only needs to meet the Level requirements of the Task Force.

Since the "Badge" in this scenario is essentially serving as a secondary Level requirement check with the Contact, of a different level than the Task Force, we've essentially established a scenario where the Team Leader has a higher level requirement than the rest of the team.

Once that Leader launches the Task Force, all members are automatically Sidekick'd up to that level -1.

My only question, then, becomes:  If the Leader drops or quits, what happens to the level of the rest of the Team?

Naturally, if there isn't any way to locked the team in to the Leader's sidekick'd level as a minimum, then this solution introduces a major inconvenience issue.

If the team remains set to that level for the duration of the Task Force, we should have a winning solution.  No?

[Faultline]

4 minutes ago, GraspingVileTerror said:

-one which lead to LadyGrey_2, who has some new Level 45 flag/Badge requirement, but assuming that check is successful, this Contact offers the Task Force with a wider range (for example, 35 to 50.  Or, dare to dream, 1 to 50).

 

Again: the level is a check on the story arc, not the contact. It doesn't matter if the metacontact will talk to you 1-50 when the story arc is what prevents you from joining. In order for the second contact to give you the "expanded level" TF, then a copy of the TF file would need to be made that works for those levels, and I am not willing to have two copies of the same TF that need to be kept track of separately in any future changes for this.

[Wavicle]

And why in gods name would you ever want to let level ones into Lady Grey except to pl them? Requirements like that exist so that people who join the task force can be reasonably sure that everybody else on the team actually is equipped to accomplish the task.

[GraspingVileTerror]

I do apologize for continuing on this line, @Faultline, but it still seems like I'm either failing to adequately describe what I'm suggesting, or there's something you're describing which I don't quite grasp.

 

Let's call the story arc check the "True Level Check," since it's actually checking the Security/Threat Level of all the team members.
Let's call the Contact's Badge/flag requirement the "Imitation Level Check," since it's consulting a flag which is triggered by the team leader obtaining the appropriate conditions to toggle that flag.

In the case of Positron Part 2, the the True Level Check is 11 to 16.
The Imitation Level Check is the "Rule of Three" Badge.  But let's say we changed that to the "Keeper of Peace/Insider/Survivor of Praetoria" Badge instead.

Would that not effectively make it so the Dam Heroes Task Force could be run by a team compromised of players ranging from level 11+, auto-Exemplared down to 16, but the Team Leader must be Level 20 minimum due to the Badge requirement.

(For clarity to EVERYONE, I am NOT proposing this scenario as an actual change.  Just a rhetorical example for discussion.)

This is the model which I am proposing for Lady Grey.

[Mr. Vee]

38 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

And why in gods name would you ever want to let level ones into Lady Grey except to pl them? Requirements like that exist so that people who join the task force can be reasonably sure that everybody else on the team actually is equipped to accomplish the task.

That's just not true anymore. When the TF was introduced there were no attuned IOs. Now my level 35 toons can outperform a 50 who's only SO'd on an LG. And frankly I'd take a 35 who knows the TF over a 50 who doesn't any day.