Two possible changes for Stalker...

[ZemX]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

The Stalker was the redside scrapper analogue they were never designed to share the stage.

 

They did anyway... with Brutes, who both outdamaged and laughably out-survived Stalkers originally.  There wasn't really a 1:1 analogue between the sides because all the ATs redside were hybrids of several blue counterparts and MMs were unique.  

 

The redside game back then reminds me of The Incredibles quote, "When everyone is super, no one will be!"  except with damage.  All the redside ATs were intended to be more offensive and so damage, as a role, became less "super".  And yet Stalkers were, if anyone was back then, the "glass cannon" of redside sort of the way Blasters were relative to blueside ATs.  Sturdier than Blasters, to be sure, but needing to be in the thick of melee where it was more dangerous.  We were almost the floor-chewing meme that Blasters were.

 

But it's a whole new game today and I say, screw the original design and whatever it was meant to be.  Stalkers are in a good enough place and maybe could just use some powerset love whether that is revamping old ones to restore the lost AoE (probably won't happen because some LIKE their old-ass single-target powersets) or proliferating the outlier powersets.  It is hardly any less appropriate for a Stalker to have an axe, mace, or Titan Weapon than it is to have a shield or a broadsword.

[Haijinx]

6 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 

  It is hardly any less appropriate for a Stalker to have an axe, mace, or Titan Weapon than it is to have a shield or a broadsword.

 

 

OR ... Fire!  Nothing says sneaky like being literally ON FIRE

[Brutal Justice]

I love stalkers and I like the suggestions offered by the OP.  

 

Demoralize is very useful at lower levels before you start to encounter very many unstoppable IOd toons.  I would say stalkers are much more useful to your average PuG than a scrapper in those levels.  They make a much better alpha breaker than a scrapper.  

 

Once the game shifts from trying to survive, to dps is king, the stalker starts to lose value quickly.  It’s odd that this happens with a “glass canon” type archetype, but it’s what my experience has shown.  

 

Therefore, my suggestion, 40% defense hard cap for non tank types.

 

Wait, isn’t this thread about buffing stalkers and wouldn’t that be a nerf to stalkers?   Yes.  Demoralize is the key however.  If a stalker chooses to open with AS then they are able to essentially soft cap themselves and their teammates for a short duration.  The value that stalkers enjoy at the lower levels is then still available at the higher levels once IOs have taken over.  

 

More value would be available in opening with AS and at the same time not be mandatory.  It would maintain the value and flavor of the archetype that you experience at the lower levels into the final levels.  

 

I think the buffs suggested sound like reasonable quality of life buffs.  I also think a bit of a spreadsheet nerf would result in a buff to play experience.

[Naraka]

18 hours ago, Madae said:

Better, but could have done without that tinge of attitude. I will consider your opinion as nothing more than that, and it appears that you've had this conversation before and need to justify it to "new people" often enough to be annoyed(?) by it, which leads me to believe it's not all that uncommon and I'm not the only one that thinks this (evidenced by some in this thread having mixed opinions about it as well). We can agree to disagree on how this topic could be addressed. I'm under no illusion that anything I think will see any actual development, but it's interesting to talk about at the very least and see what other ideas, suggestions and comments people have on it, so thanks for that at least.

 

That's an odd way to thank someone for answering your request.

 

But no, it's not about being annoyed or having this conversation about Stalkers over and over.  This is moreso about the overall balance that you're not seeming to understand.  If you hadn't yet, try looking at any other AT forum and spot the thread asking for buffs to that AT.  It's not so much about fixing problems with ATs (for example: I said I don't think it would be the end of the world if they made Assassin's Focus refresh the oldest stack) but rather the rationale used to try and justify their suggestions.  

 

Go ahead.  Look on the Scrapper or Blaster forums and they too will have thread asking for buffs.  One has to wonder, they can't all be right, right?  But it's more plausible that they are all wrong for similar reasons.

 

And yes, take my post as an opinion.  I never state it as fact.  At best, it's bringing you the talking points that have long been debated right to you rather than just patting you on the back with a "sure, kid" and a thumbs up.

 

2 hours ago, Brutal Justice said:

I love stalkers and I like the suggestions offered by the OP.  

 

Demoralize is very useful at lower levels before you start to encounter very many unstoppable IOd toons.  I would say stalkers are much more useful to your average PuG than a scrapper in those levels.  They make a much better alpha breaker than a scrapper.  

 

Once the game shifts from trying to survive, to dps is king, the stalker starts to lose value quickly.  It’s odd that this happens with a “glass canon” type archetype, but it’s what my experience has shown.  

 

Therefore, my suggestion, 40% defense hard cap for non tank types.

 

Wait, isn’t this thread about buffing stalkers and wouldn’t that be a nerf to stalkers?   Yes.  Demoralize is the key however.  If a stalker chooses to open with AS then they are able to essentially soft cap themselves and their teammates for a short duration.  The value that stalkers enjoy at the lower levels is then still available at the higher levels once IOs have taken over.  

 

More value would be available in opening with AS and at the same time not be mandatory.  It would maintain the value and flavor of the archetype that you experience at the lower levels into the final levels.  

 

I think the buffs suggested sound like reasonable quality of life buffs.  I also think a bit of a spreadsheet nerf would result in a buff to play experience.

 

Your hearts in the right place but I feel this debate is wholly for another thread (talking about adjusting defense/hit chances).  Also, probably no one here will engage your post because of that, but I feel it does touch on a large aspect of the game that is going to limit balance and thus will only exacerbate the problem (which is why I said "Stalkers don't need a buff").  If the enemy has no teeth and you just have to push out as much AoE as possible, you devalue a lot of game mechanics to include tanking, healing/defensive support, control, and burst damage/ST DPS.  When no one cares how they're going to survive because the foes die too fast or barely do anything to you, suddenly any defensive secondary effects have less value, everyone is a tank, only offensive support is necessary and the most valuable metric (damage) is going to be hyper-compared to every other AT with no/little context.

 

Hopefully, OP, having someone countering your points will get more of a discussion going than just jumping on your bandwagon.  You can passive aggressively thank me later.

[Madae]

Can't say I'm surprised that you'd double down on that. It's probably harder to admit to the slightly insulting and patronizing tone of your post, but I guess that's just my problem, eh? At any rate, it's not a discussion that needs to be "won", especially with someone that holds your opinions that likely won't change anyway. All I cared about is hearing more about why you think the things you do, not defeating you in verbal fisticuffs, so I don't feel like I need to address it, only listen to what you have to say.

Edited June 11, 2021 by Madae

[Naraka]

20 hours ago, Madae said:

 

This post would be better if you offered up an opinion on why you think this. It sounds oddly familiar, by the way, and isn't very helpful (see previous posts). I mean, if you don't want to have a discussion, that's fine, but it's not a convincing argument and does nothing to change opinions on the subject. I'm also very suspicious of any claims from people that apparently "enjoy the class so much" that they think absolutely nothing is wrong with it, or it couldn't be better.

 

No, I'll admit to having charged posts.  If you have a problem with it, don't complain about it. Report it.

 

EDIT: Also, to double down on something, you'd have to refute it first.

Edited June 11, 2021 by Naraka

[Madae]

I'm referring to the chip on your shoulder.

[Naraka]

So you're not going to actually engage any points I made. 

 

Understandable.

[Haijinx]

5 hours ago, Brutal Justice said:

 

Therefore, my suggestion, 40% defense hard cap for non tank types.

 

 

LOL, you got me!  

 

I wasn't expecting you to sneak this into this thread, but you did.  All sneaky Stalker like.  

 

Assassin's Blow style!  Noice! 

[Haijinx]

2 hours ago, Naraka said:

 

 

Go ahead.  Look on the Scrapper or Blaster forums and they too will have thread asking for buffs.  One has to wonder, they can't all be right, right?  But it's more plausible that they are all wrong for similar reasons.

 

 

And on Brute forums.  And on Tanker forums ... 

 

Some players are like drug addicts.  Feed their Power Creep Addiction and they want Moar and Moar. 

[Shred Monkey]

On 6/10/2021 at 1:37 PM, ZemX said:

 

What you're missing, I think, is that all the tricks with controlled crits, even the ATOs which are absolutely wonderful (not denying it) serve only to bring our damage output UP to Scrapper standard.  We burst better.  That's about it.  Scrappers have a higher base damage modifier which means better starting damage, better enhanced damage, and better damage buffs.  And they have a random crit rate (lower than ours usually) and their own crit-enhancing ATO too.

Just quoting this section to point out that in addition to the ATOs and crit tricks, Stalkers also get assassin's strike.  Quick strike is the highest damage-per-animation-time attack in the whole game.  With the balance change to TW, there's no scrapper attack chain that isn't improved by moving it to a stalker and replacing the worst DPA attack with AS.  You can usually boost your DPS even further by optimizing use of Assassin's Focus and the ATO procs.  Admittedly, some sets get more from these tricks than others, but they all do better than their scrapper counterparts.

 

 

[PainX]

a fair bit of base hp difference between brute->scrapper->stalker too so much so my SD scrapper has 2048hp my SD stalker 1656 as for why well i picture there was some intention of having scrappers being off-tank's when you consider the ST taunt and the later addition armor sets with taunt aura's built in seems like something they just never got around to fixing fully

 

infact the interresting part is they bothered to change those aura's for the scrapper as they only get mag 3 versus the brutes mag 4 aura meaning they had some kind of plan with that direction imo not gonna guess how or why but i suppose scrappers do come with a primary taunt ability we just dont really take it unless we pick katana since ST

[nihilii]

8 hours ago, Naraka said:

If you hadn't yet, try looking at any other AT forum and spot the thread asking for buffs to that AT.

 

8 hours ago, Naraka said:

Go ahead.  Look on the Scrapper or Blaster forums and they too will have thread asking for buffs.

 

Honestly, I have never seen a Scrapper thread asking for buffs to the whole AT. Or if I did, it was so long ago and so outlandish and universally decried it didn't stick with my memory... Do you have any example in mind?

[oldskool]

On 6/10/2021 at 11:47 PM, Naraka said:

As for not seeing a lot of Stalkers around...

 

I agree with what follows but to be fair to Stalkers, they remain hidden a lot.  

 

[Haijinx]

5 hours ago, nihilii said:

 

 

Honestly, I have never seen a Scrapper thread asking for buffs to the whole AT. Or if I did, it was so long ago and so outlandish and universally decried it didn't stick with my memory... Do you have any example in mind?

Most recent I can think of was a suggestion to buff the scrapper ATOs

 

Or add a crit on demand or something.  They wanted moar crits.

Edited June 12, 2021 by Haijinx

[Madae]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

Or add a crit on demand or something.

 

Maybe they should play a Stalker... I'm sure I can't think of any reason why they wouldn't just do that...

[Naraka]

7 hours ago, nihilii said:

 

 

Honestly, I have never seen a Scrapper thread asking for buffs to the whole AT. Or if I did, it was so long ago and so outlandish and universally decried it didn't stick with my memory... Do you have any example in mind?

 

It's on the first page.

 

 

[Madae]

There's a notable difference between that thread and this one... people actually agree with what I've said. But maybe that doesn't matter. Maybe it's just not reasonable to question anything CoH did or HC does. We should just live with it and not ask questions or make suggestions.

[Omega-202]

27 minutes ago, Madae said:

There's a notable difference between that thread and this one... people actually agree with what I've said. But maybe that doesn't matter. Maybe it's just not reasonable to question anything CoH did or HC does. We should just live with it and not ask questions or make suggestions.

I'm sure a lot of people disagree with you but don't care to argue the point because it's not worth our time.  Me for one. 

 

Stalkers are in a really good place and I don't forsee them getting any buffs.  Its really not worth discussing, especially when you have Sentinels and Kheldians in such bad shape.  

 

Just because a bunch of people don't pipe up to tell you that you're wrong doesn't mean you are right.  

[Madae]

1 minute ago, Omega-202 said:

I'm sure a lot of people disagree with you but don't care to argue the point because it's not worth our time.  Me for one. 

 

Stalkers are in a really good place and I don't forsee them getting any buffs.  Its really not worth discussing, especially when you have Sentinels and Kheldians in such bad shape.  

 

Just because a bunch of people don't pipe up to tell you that you're wrong doesn't mean you are right.  

 

Who said anything about being right? There is no right or wrong here, it's an opinion, and so far people agree with my opinion. I could just as easily say the exact opposite of what you said, too. Conjecture is not a valid argument.

[FUBARczar]

On 6/10/2021 at 1:42 AM, Haijinx said:

 

ATOs are the best available. 

 

They have a GLOBAL Proc ATO that gives free buildups.   

They have a Proc ATO that puts them back into Hide, allowing them to 100% crit 

Both sets have good bonuses and a nice fat recharge buff

 

And these both work together.  

 

---------

Armor sets almost as good as Scrapper, but with much lower threat.  While some sets are less good, many are just as good as the scrapper variant.   And Stalkers get the same base values as scrappers and brutes, not reduced ones like Sents 

 

--------

Progressively building crits, crit increase based on team size, etc.  Though TBH these are just icing on the cake.  

 

--------

All the newer primaries have the same AOE potential as scrapper sets.  

 

====

So really unless you pick an Older primary with poor AOE, and one of the secondaries that aren't as sturdy, your Stalker is going to play like a Scrapper with more reliable crits and lots and lots of extra buildups. 

Not completely true, and only part of the story.  And if it were true you'd see a lot more Stalkers than you do.  And the the fast AS could be improved.

---

Stalkers have fewer Base HP and lower base dmg than Scrappers

---

The fear in AS makes it harder to keep aggro than Scrappers

---

Energy Melee is the newest set and it lacks the PBAoE attack, Psi Melee lacks the Cone, etc.

---

etc.

---

An in-game example:

On the 4-man MoITF challenge (4-man same AT, +4/8, No Deaths/Temps/Inspirations) Stalkers can't catch Scrappers.

(I think this was the latest)

1ST 22:54 BRUTES @EV(Rad/Fire) @Impedix(Spines/Fire) @lucas(SS/Fire) @Sparta(Staff/SR)

2ND 23:59 BLASTERS @Acidalia(Fire/TA) @dayday(Fire/Temp) @Mr.FUBAR(Fire/Temp) @Raw(BR/TA)

3RD 25:09 CORRUPTORS @dayday(Fire/Time) @Midnight2(Fire/Dark) @Mr.FUBAR(Fire/Kin) @Stubb(Fire/Time)

4TH 25:28 SCRAPPERS @dayday(Elec/Fire) @Mr.FUBAR(WM/SD) @Gio(Psi/EA) @lucas(Spines/Bio)

5TH 26:18 STALKERS @dayday(StJ/DA) @EV(Fire/SR) @Mr.FUBAR(Psi/Rad) @lucas(Elec/SD)

6TH 26:21 DEFENDERS @dayday(Cold/Dark) @Mr.FUBAR(Dark/Fire) @Midnight2(Time/Ice) @Stubb(Kin/Elec)

7TH 26:23 TANKS @DaCrusha(Rad/DM) @dayday(Elec/SS) @Mr.FUBAR(Bio/TW) @Turtumos(Fire/Fire)

30 mins is the cut off

 

 

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, FUBARczar said:

Not completely true, and only part of the story.  And if it were true you'd see a lot more Stalkers than you do.  And the the fast AS could be improved.

---

Stalkers have fewer Base HP and lower base dmg than Scrappers

---

The fear in AS makes it harder to keep aggro than Scrappers

---

Energy Melee is the newest set and it lacks the PBAoE attack, Psi Melee lacks the Cone, etc.

 

 

Less HP, true, but also less threat.  Its noticeable on teams, aggro parts like the red sea.  Of course on all stalker team this doesn't help.  But on a normal team it does. 

 

Stalkers really aren't designed to keep aggro.  Neither are Scrappers from what Capt PH says but still, Its true if you want *some* aggro, playing Stalker is not your thing.  

 

Energy melee isn't really a New set.  

[FUBARczar]

On 6/10/2021 at 11:55 AM, Haijinx said:

It helps to remember Stalkers and Brutes were not designed to team with scrappers and Tankers originally.

 

Thus all the overlap

???

 

It's the same for every counter AT

Defenders/Corruptors

Controllers/MMs

Blasters/Dominators

Scrappers/Stalkers

Tanks/Brutes

 

And despite some overlap they are different enough even the two closest IMO Defenders/Corruptors.

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

 

Less HP, true, but also less threat.  Its noticeable on teams, aggro parts like the red sea.  Of course on all stalker team this doesn't help.  But on a normal team it does. 

 

Stalkers really aren't designed to keep aggro.  Neither are Scrappers from what Capt PH says but still, Its true if you want *some* aggro, playing Stalker is not your thing.  

 

Energy melee isn't really a New set.  

It was revamped with a new power and a new mechanic added.  It's a new set for all intents and purposes here.

 

Yes crappers are bad at holding aggro too.  AVs will run from Scrappers just as much as from Stalkers.

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, FUBARczar said:

???

 

It's the same for every counter AT

Defenders/Corruptors

Controllers/MMs

Blasters/Dominators

Scrappers/Stalkers

Tanks/Brutes

 

And despite some overlap they are different enough even the two closest IMO Defenders/Corruptors.

 

None of the Redside Ats were originally intended to play with the Blueside ATs 

 

So it wasn't even a consideration how similar (or not) ATs were to each other.