Taunt aura for all scrapper secondaries?

[Deuce Spade]

I was trying to think of a reason not to give it to all scrapper secondaries.  The obvious one is burn on a scrapper, but the lower resist cap should keep brutes firmly in first place for farming.  Can you think of any other reason scrappers shouldn't have taunt auras in all powersets?  Seems like it would be easy enough to implement, since brutes already have them.

[Apparition]

The lead powers developer Captain Powerhouse stated a year or two ago that he doesn’t think that Scrappers should have taunt auras and any new Scrapper armor set will not have one.

[Deuce Spade]

Ouch.  Oh well, so much for that idea.

[tidge]

I can't divine the thoughts of Captain Powerhouse, but I agree with the assessment that Scrappers shouldn't get Taunt Auras moving forward.

 

On Live (even before City of Villains) some Scrappers could already be made survivable enough that players were questioning the relevance of Tankers. I don't see any reason to further blur the lines between Scrappers/Brutes/Tankers.

[BrandX]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

I can't divine the thoughts of Captain Powerhouse, but I agree with the assessment that Scrappers shouldn't get Taunt Auras moving forward.

 

On Live (even before City of Villains) some Scrappers could already be made survivable enough that players were questioning the relevance of Tankers. I don't see any reason to further blur the lines between Scrappers/Brutes/Tankers.

 

Everyone always says that, but then you suggest lowering the Brute Resist Cap to 85% so it's not equal to Tankers, and blurs that line less, and it's either laughing or whining at the idea.

[nihilii]

I wish all scrappers had taunt auras. The current state of things makes a huge difference in viability between different secondaries.

 

Objectively, as much as I hate it, it would make more sense to remove all taunt auras from scrappers than to keep "first-class citizen status" restricted to a select few powersets.

 

I'd rather see a middle of the road scenario where all secondaries get taunt auras, and the efficiency of said taunt aura is reworked. Sort of pulling numbers out of my ass, but I think the taunt auras are all something like 15s duration, and scrappers are mag3 compared to brutes and tankers mag4. I think it could make sense to drastically cut the duration, to something like say 3 or 4 seconds. Desired result being, if you're right up in there glued to the enemy you're hitting in the face, they won't run from you. But if you want to herd tanker-style, or even if you want to passively tag a group with a single AoE and expect them to gather nicely for you, you might see things spilling over.

[BrandX]

22 minutes ago, nihilii said:

I wish all scrappers had taunt auras. The current state of things makes a huge difference in viability between different secondaries.

 

Objectively, as much as I hate it, it would make more sense to remove all taunt auras from scrappers than to keep "first-class citizen status" restricted to a select few powersets.

 

I'd rather see a middle of the road scenario where all secondaries get taunt auras, and the efficiency of said taunt aura is reworked. Sort of pulling numbers out of my ass, but I think the taunt auras are all something like 15s duration, and scrappers are mag3 compared to brutes and tankers mag4. I think it could make sense to drastically cut the duration, to something like say 3 or 4 seconds. Desired result being, if you're right up in there glued to the enemy you're hitting in the face, they won't run from you. But if you want to herd tanker-style, or even if you want to passively tag a group with a single AoE and expect them to gather nicely for you, you might see things spilling over.

 

I think, if if it makes sense, the secondary should have a taunt aura.  By sense, I mean, what's the sets defense?  SR has no need to keep enemies around them, other than desired by some players.

 

WP has a -ToHit Toggle and more regen per enemy.  Makes sense.

 

Regen?  Nothing.

 

The one I would question is Fire Armor, as it's purely damage, but that's it's gimmick, so maybe, so it can do more of it's thing.

[Ratch_]

7 minutes ago, nihilii said:

I wish all scrappers had taunt auras. The current state of things makes a huge difference in viability between different secondaries.

 

Objectively, as much as I hate it, it would make more sense to remove all taunt auras from scrappers than to keep "first-class citizen status" restricted to a select few powersets.

 

I'd rather see a middle of the road scenario where all secondaries get taunt auras, and the efficiency of said taunt aura is reworked. Sort of pulling numbers out of my ass, but I think the taunt auras are all something like 15s duration, and scrappers are mag3 compared to brutes and tankers mag4. I think it could make sense to drastically cut the duration, to something like say 3 or 4 seconds. Desired result being, if you're right up in there glued to the enemy you're hitting in the face, they won't run from you. But if you want to herd tanker-style, or even if you want to passively tag a group with a single AoE and expect them to gather nicely for you, you might see things spilling over.

All the scrapper taunt auras are super inconsistent, with things like Bio, Rad, Invuln, and Shiled having roughly a 13-14 second mag 3 taunt and others like Energy Aura & Willpower only have a 1-3 second mag 3 taunt.

I am 100% with you in normalizing the playing field because I am getting pretty tired of feeling pigeon holed into a taunt aura secondary because of just how much that factor plays in being a force multiplier for damage.

My problem with the argument or stance for removing taunt auras as a whole is that playing without it is NOT fun. It's hell chasing enemies around on a melee focused AT. This becomes excruciatingly noticeable when you take said scrapper and attempt soloing an AV. Watching them run from you regenerating away all the damage you just did feels horrible because this means the DPS check is now that much higher 😞
   The proposed solution to that problem is supposed to be confront?....

 

The other half of this is what about the inverse with Scrappers compared with a blaster? These ATs are unique in that they both share having the highest damage scale, however the added existence of Sustains and Crashless Nukes far over step on the toes of melee Damage ATs. The taunt aura is how a Scrapper can keep up. Blaster's don't get taunt auras, but they make up for that with the added ability in most manipulation secondaries having a form of soft control, larger radius AoEs, and good ranged capabilities. Blaster's also do get more max targets on a majority of their AoEs which I like a lot, because scrappers can crit. It's a really nice tradeoff and a balancing factor.

Scrapper's are first and foremost a damage AT, removing taunt across the board is a massive nerf to damage. Could there be a compensation for the change (if it happens) that a Scrapper could get in place of taunt that would let them confirm damage?
 

[BrandX]

Where is this AV running away?  Maybe one AV ran away when I soloed them (Swan counterpart I think it was) with my EM/Regen (no taunt aura), but for most of them, they stayed right in melee beating back on me.

[tidge]

4 hours ago, tidge said:

I can't divine the thoughts of Captain Powerhouse, but I agree with the assessment that Scrappers shouldn't get Taunt Auras moving forward.

 

On Live (even before City of Villains) some Scrappers could already be made survivable enough that players were questioning the relevance of Tankers. I don't see any reason to further blur the lines between Scrappers/Brutes/Tankers.

 

2 hours ago, BrandX said:

 

Everyone always says that, but then you suggest lowering the Brute Resist Cap to 85% so it's not equal to Tankers, and blurs that line less, and it's either laughing or whining at the idea.

 

When did I suggest lowering the Brute Resistance Cap? This (original) post in the thread I'm responding to is about the Taunt aura on Scrappers. I'm going to ignore your attempt to put a Taunt aura on your word salad/strawman character.

[Ratch_]

1 hour ago, BrandX said:

Where is this AV running away?  Maybe one AV ran away when I soloed them (Swan counterpart I think it was) with my EM/Regen (no taunt aura), but for most of them, they stayed right in melee beating back on me.

Try Romulus and Director 11.

(Also, it's cool you use regen. I love that powerset)

Edited June 14, 2021 by Ratch_

[BrandX]

6 hours ago, tidge said:

 

 

When did I suggest lowering the Brute Resistance Cap? This (original) post in the thread I'm responding to is about the Taunt aura on Scrappers. I'm going to ignore your attempt to put a Taunt aura on your word salad/strawman character.

 

You didn't.  I have.  Point still stands.  People go "Let's not blur the lines between ATs even more" and then laugh/whine at the idea of a 5% reduction in Brutes max Resistance.

 

That said, I play Scrappers without a taunt aura just fine.  😛  If they have a taunt aura or if they don't, I'm still playing a Scrapper 🙂

[BrandX]

6 hours ago, Ratch_ said:

Try Romulus and Director 11.

(Also, it's cool you use regen. I love that powerset)

 

Yup.  Yup.  You're right.  I was thinking some storyline mission AVs.  There are those two TF AVs.

[arcane]

On 6/13/2021 at 4:18 PM, Apparition said:

The lead powers developer Captain Powerhouse stated a year or two ago that he doesn’t think that Scrappers should have taunt auras and any new Scrapper armor set will not have one.

Tbh I think they should just take away the existing taunt aura effects at this point. Go ahead and throw things at me.

[Haijinx]

36 minutes ago, arcane said:

Tbh I think they should just take away the existing taunt aura effects at this point. Go ahead and throw things at me.

would resolve some of that "why play a brute?" dilemma

 

The debuff type and damage effects still would give some ability to snag aggro for a few secondaries though, which wouldn't be so bad. 

[Haijinx]

8 hours ago, Ratch_ said:

Scrapper's are first and foremost a damage AT, removing taunt across the board is a massive nerf to damage. Could there be a compensation for the change (if it happens) that a Scrapper could get in place of taunt that would let them confirm damage?
 

 

How is it a nerf to damage? 

[BrandX]

Just now, Haijinx said:

would resolve some of that "why play a brute?" dilemma

 

The debuff type and damage effects still would give some ability to snag aggro for a few secondaries though, which wouldn't be so bad. 

 

Why play a brute?  Higher resist caps 😛  

 

WP is supposed to have it's weak taunt aura, which, if I'm not mistaken, isn't enough to keep Director 11 taunted. 

[Haijinx]

Just now, BrandX said:

 

Why play a brute?  Higher resist caps 😛  

 

WP is supposed to have it's weak taunt aura, which, if I'm not mistaken, isn't enough to keep Director 11 taunted. 

 

Seems kind of weak sauce tbh.   Its not like they are given any help getting there.  If they actually had higher numbers for their secondaries, like they have lower numbers for their primaries, I'd agree with you. 

[BrandX]

Just now, Haijinx said:

 

Seems kind of weak sauce tbh.   Its not like they are given any help getting there.  If they actually had higher numbers for their secondaries, like they have lower numbers for their primaries, I'd agree with you. 

 

Well, I got my Elec/Elec to pretty much 90% on S/L/F/C/E/P and over 42% Toxic/57% Negative.   Not going to see a Scrapper do that.

[Heraclea]

I kind of like the current setup, where it's possible to build a 'light' scrapper for stealth in the fashion of a stalker with more hitpoints (with the tradeoff being less predictable crits) versus a heavy scrapper that does have a taunt aura and can hold spawns together.  Scrapper is to me the most versatile and concept friendly of the melee ATs and this is one reason why. 

 

I do think fiery aura needs one, because the armor set should have one to do its job. 

 

The happy place for me is a defense based scrapper with taunt in its armor set.  Defense based, because a scrapper is at no disadvantage here like she would be on a pure resistance set.  Willpower is the exception that tests the rule; 75% smash/lethal resistance on a scrapper is more than enough with everything else that WP brings to the table.  My current main heavy scrappers are spines/energy, electric/shield, and savage/WP. all of which are combos that make them quite adequate moneymakers. 

 

 

[Ratch_]

Okay, I put together two videos to show as an example how effective taunt is as a mechanic in regards to improving Damage. To break this down we are using a mission titled "Track Down Trapdoor" which always has spawns at the exact same place and an EB at the end of the mission. Timer starts as soon as I take off (start at second 3 in both videos) and timer ends as soon as Trapdoor highlights blue.

There is blind and -toHit in this map, so I am using super insp (giant yellows) to mitigate as much as possible any variation so that I always have a 95% chance to hit. Also, the runs are exactly the same, with the second run utilizing Melee Radial Embodiment. This hybrid does absolutely nothing in increasing damage and the +def/+regen has very little benefit in this metric of clear time. What this hybrid does have though is a taunt aura.
 

 

I cleared this map in ~5:25 on the run without the hybrid toggled and then I cleared this map in ~4:45 with the hybrid toggled on. Keep in mind, I only had taunt from this hybrid running for 2 minutes before shutting off and it came back up again when I fought Trapdoor. You can clearly see the difference in effectiveness when it comes to clearing enemies out when you have the taunt running vs. not having a taunt at all.

[Ratch_]

2 hours ago, Haijinx said:

 

How is it a nerf to damage? 

It's not directly nerfing any form of damage, but taunt as a mechanic lets you confirm damage and lowers the amount of delay between using damage abilities since you don't need to waste time chasing.

 

It allows you to tap into your full DPS potential, including the likelihood of keeping targets close for AoE. More targets hit = more damage done.


BrandX isn't wrong, as not having a taunt aura isn't going to mean you aren't viable. Hell, in teams a majority of the time whether you can taunt or not won't matter one bit. However, there is no denying at how effective taunt is at allowing you to do more damage.

[arcane]

15 hours ago, Haijinx said:

 

Seems kind of weak sauce tbh.   Its not like they are given any help getting there.  If they actually had higher numbers for their secondaries, like they have lower numbers for their primaries, I'd agree with you. 

Plus that’s completely meaningless to most defense sets...

[Bill Z Bubba]

I like taunt auras. Scrapper BZB does kick the crap out of Brute BZB in hard target kill times, but thanks to Evasion's taunt aura on the brute, clear all times get far closer together as shown above.

 

Runners suck. Damn cowards.

[Bill Z Bubba]

15 hours ago, Haijinx said:

 

Seems kind of weak sauce tbh.   Its not like they are given any help getting there.  If they actually had higher numbers for their secondaries, like they have lower numbers for their primaries, I'd agree with you. 

 

2 minutes ago, arcane said:

Plus that’s completely meaningless to most defense sets...

 

SR and its scaling resists tilts its head quizzically.