Taunt aura for all scrapper secondaries?

[arcane]

12 hours ago, Ratch_ said:

It's not directly nerfing any form of damage, but taunt as a mechanic lets you confirm damage and lowers the amount of delay between using damage abilities since you don't need to waste time chasing.

 

It allows you to tap into your full DPS potential, including the likelihood of keeping targets close for AoE. More targets hit = more damage done.


BrandX isn't wrong, as not having a taunt aura isn't going to mean you aren't viable. Hell, in teams a majority of the time whether you can taunt or not won't matter one bit. However, there is no denying at how effective taunt is at allowing you to do more damage.

If taunt is such a boon, that’s a good reason for either all Scrappers to have taunt auras or none of them. And since we know for a fact it’ll never be all of them, that leaves us one option.

[arcane]

Just now, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

 

SR and its scaling resists tilts its head quizzically.

Key word was “most”.

[arcane]

All this said, the distinction between Scrapper and Brute doesn’t mean a lot to me because Bill’s ravings eventually got me addicted to Tankers. Even made that Shield/Energy the other day.

[Onlyasandwich]

35 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Runners suck. Damn cowards

 

Agreed! These days, my preference is for characters either with a taunt aura, or some type of extreme slow or hard lockdown for this very reason.

 

My poor little Claws/Fire Scrapper just runs up ready to unleash, but luits and above end up bolting with a sliver of health before I can cleanly finish the job.

Edited June 15, 2021 by Onlyasandwich

[BrandX]

34 minutes ago, arcane said:

If taunt is such a boon, that’s a good reason for either all Scrappers to have taunt auras or none of them. And since we know for a fact it’ll never be all of them, that leaves us one option.

 

Not really.  Nothing ever said all sets have to be equal.  We already know they're not equal in terms of survival.  Why would ability to taunt be the exception to the rule?

 

This isn't to say, I agree that all new sets shouldn't have a taunt aura.  Should be based on the set.  Just not on clear times.

[Ratch_]

I kinda like the idea of moving the taunt aura aspect into confront - just make that power a small endurance cost toggle that has a 8ft radius mag 3 x second taunt.

This would make it available to all scrappers, while still being optional for those that don't want to have it. It would require another power pick, which bites, but still seems like a fair possibility?

Edited June 15, 2021 by Ratch_

[BrandX]

1 minute ago, Ratch_ said:

I kinda like the idea of moving the taunt aura aspect into confront - just make that power a small endurance cost toggle that has a 8ft radius mag 3 x second taunt.

This would make it available to all scrappers, while still being optional for those that don't want to have it. It would require another power pick, which bites, but still seems like a fair possibility?

 

Terrible idea.  Some of those confronts are awesome animations and why I try to fit them into my builds!

 

That, and I like to be a Scrapper who can taunt an AV 🙂

[Deuce Spade]

The /FA example seems like a case where the taunt aura should have been included, or they might look at subbing out Burn for another power.  While people can probably come up with a niche build where Burn works on a scrapper (AOE immobilize in epic or Ice Patch or similar?), it's a counterproductive power to use with the set as currently designed.  Burn is far better on a blaster, and it sucks on a blaster.

[nihilii]

1 hour ago, Ratch_ said:

I kinda like the idea of moving the taunt aura aspect into confront - just make that power a small endurance cost toggle that has a 8ft radius mag 3 x second taunt.

This would make it available to all scrappers, while still being optional for those that don't want to have it. It would require another power pick, which bites, but still seems like a fair possibility?

Awesome, creative idea. Spending one power pick as Scrapper Tax to taunt would be a fair trade.

I can empathise with BrandX, though. Radically changing functionality sucks if you like what already exists. The cottage rule is a good rule, even if frustratingly restrictive at times.

 

Well, maybe it could be a weak taunt aura AND the old Confront rolled in one. With the new travel powers giving you extra trays and powers, one might assume the same tech could apply to primary powerset powers?

Edited June 15, 2021 by nihilii

[Brutal Justice]

I think only invuln and willpower should have a taunt aura because it’s directly linked to their survival and they don’t have any sort of +damage mechanic that a lot of the other sets have.  It should be removed from the other sets.

 

Stalkers deal with this all the time and they do just fine.  If you want to build your scrapper to be like a tank there should be sacrifices made.  Confront already exists on every scrapper.    Provoke is available to all, and with the addition of one more presence selection, unlocks a nice power in unrelenting.  Incarnate taunt aura is available.

 

There already exists multiple avenues to achieve a tanky scrapper.   That’s great!  Scrappers are not tanks/brutes and shouldn’t be holding aggro unless specifically built to do so.  

[Hew]

Giving all scrappers taunt auras is not much different from saying give all fenders or corrs mez protect. I mean, a few def/corrs have it, why shouldnt they all? After all, they do their job better if they arent mezd, right?

 

Lets not go there. I fully agree with PH on taunt + scrappers.

 

[tidge]

I simply want to congratulate @Brutal Justice for reminding this thread that there are differences between Taunt, Auras with a Taunt component, Confront,, and Provoke. Changing Confront (on the ATs which have it) into a aggro Toggle would have some serious balance issues, IMO.

 

I also happen to agree that it's the sets without a damage aura and a survivability mechanism tied to the aura that set those apart from classics like Fiery Aura... surely I'm not the only player that remembers how Fiery Aura Tankers used to simply consume DE Swarm for easy XP?

[BrandX]

2 hours ago, tidge said:

I simply want to congratulate @Brutal Justice for reminding this thread that there are differences between Taunt, Auras with a Taunt component, Confront,, and Provoke. Changing Confront (on the ATs which have it) into a aggro Toggle would have some serious balance issues, IMO.

 

I also happen to agree that it's the sets without a damage aura and a survivability mechanism tied to the aura that set those apart from classics like Fiery Aura... surely I'm not the only player that remembers how Fiery Aura Tankers used to simply consume DE Swarm for easy XP?

 

I'd say Ice Armor (with it's -DMG and +Def based on enemies) and Energy Aura with it's +Def PBAOE, may like a taunt aura to keep enemies close.

 

Fire Armor wants them close for more damage, but I'd say there's many who'd say that's the defense of Fire Armor, damage.

[arcane]

5 hours ago, BrandX said:

 

Not really.  Nothing ever said all sets have to be equal.  We already know they're not equal in terms of survival.  Why would ability to taunt be the exception to the rule?

 

This isn't to say, I agree that all new sets shouldn't have a taunt aura.  Should be based on the set.  Just not on clear times.

Fair point. Counterpoint ofc is that, specifically with respect to taunt, sets already *have* been extremely consistent with one another outside of Scrapper taunt auras. 

[Haijinx]

Its a situation where if you keep the taunt auras for scrappers, what are you doing for brutes?  Their damage was after all, reduced.

 

My suggestion - bump their Secondary up to 80% from 75%

 

Making it

80% Brute

75% Scrapper/Stalker

70% Sent

 

With Tanker Primaries at 100%

[Deuce Spade]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

Its a situation where if you keep the taunt auras for scrappers, what are you doing for brutes?  Their damage was after all, reduced.

 

My suggestion - bump their Secondary up to 80% from 75%

 

Making it

80% Brute

75% Scrapper/Stalker

70% Sent

 

With Tanker Primaries at 100%

Brutes have a 90% resistance cap.  They will be able to do things scrappers can't, regardless of taunt aura.  That's true of the brute/scrapper sets that share taunt auras now.  I'm mystified by the "if you give that to scrappers, what will brutes have?" line of thought.

[Riverdusk]

 

On the taunt aura issue, the main issues I have with scrappers and taunt auras are:

 

1.  That a pool power taunt (provoke) is more useful than the scrapper primary power taunt (confront).  

2.  That dealing with runners is a huge QoL issue for me (and I think many others).  It isn't even about "power", it is about runners in this game being a PITA (and UNFUN) to deal with while playing a melee class. 

 

I don't have nearly the same issue on stalkers because honestly usually on stalkers the thing I'm attacking is dead before it has a chance to even think of running.  😉  It is a very different playstyle having that huge burst damage available.  One of the main keys that triggers the run script seems to be a "low hp state".  Something you get a lot more often when playing a scrapper than a stalker in my experience.

 

If I want a damage melee without a taunt aura I just play a stalker, who has better ability to deal with the issue.  If scrappers lost their taunt auras all my scrappers would just be rerolled into stalkers instead honestly.

Edited June 15, 2021 by Riverdusk

[Haijinx]

2 minutes ago, Deuce Spade said:

Brutes have a 90% resistance cap.  They will be able to do things scrappers can't, regardless of taunt aura.  That's true of the brute/scrapper sets that share taunt auras now.  I'm mystified by the "if you give that to scrappers, what will brutes have?" line of thought.

 

They had that before their damage was reduced and tanks were buffed though, didn't they?

[Deuce Spade]

Just now, Haijinx said:

 

They had that before their damage was reduced and tanks were buffed though, didn't they?

They did.  I may not understand your point.

[Riverdusk]

6 minutes ago, Deuce Spade said:

Brutes have a 90% resistance cap.  They will be able to do things scrappers can't, regardless of taunt aura.  That's true of the brute/scrapper sets that share taunt auras now.  I'm mystified by the "if you give that to scrappers, what will brutes have?" line of thought.

 

Yep, many brute armor sets can reach that on at least some damage types.  So against those types a scrapper is doing slightly more damage, and yet taking 250%! of the damage (25% vs. 10%) of a brute is in return.  Not a very good damage/survivability tradeoff imo (which is why I avoid heavy resistance armors on scrappers entirely).  I don't see too many electric armor scrappers around for instance.

 

Also ends up making even the somewhat useful tier 9's (like willpower and shield have) kinda useless on a scrapper, not so much on a brute/tanker.  I can get to 70%+ s/l resistance with those sets and then I have a tier 9 that gives me a whole extra 5%? Oh boy!  Not really worth a power pick.   On a brute/tank it is getting you to that 90%, whole different story.

 

Then we go into a brute having more hps (and therefor also regen) than a scrapper by a pretty good margin.   

 

Totally agree, Brutes have plenty of "advantages" over a scrapper already in different ways beyond just a taunt aura.   If some people think brutes got shortchanged vs. tanks, okay, but don't start rolling it downhill against scrappers please.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

With Tanker Primaries at 100%

 

Not with the ridiculous damage output they're capable of now. Not even no, or even hell no, but a big whoppin #*($&#($*&#($*& NO.

[Riverdusk]

1 hour ago, BrandX said:

 

I'd say Ice Armor (with it's -DMG and +Def based on enemies) and Energy Aura with it's +Def PBAOE, may like a taunt aura to keep enemies close.

 

Fire Armor wants them close for more damage, but I'd say there's many who'd say that's the defense of Fire Armor, damage.

 

And bio with its +res per enemy aura.  All the scrapper secondary's that have taunt auras now tend to have them for good reason.

[Haijinx]

19 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Not with the ridiculous damage output they're capable of now. Not even no, or even hell no, but a big whoppin #*($&#($*&#($*& NO.

 

That is where they are now.

 

100% for Defensive values on their Primary.  

 

 

[Haijinx]

36 minutes ago, Deuce Spade said:

They did.  I may not understand your point.

 

Tanks were heavily buffed Damage wise, making them far more competitive to Brutes on damage 

 

Brutes had their damage output reduced, so that they would not eclipse Scrappers, now they are a fair bit behind.  So they are less competitive with Scrappers. 

 

While its true that Brute caps for resist are higher, they do not have higher base values for this function.  Nor do they gain any defense advantage over scrappers.  So Brutes primary reason they are more durable than scrappers are hit points, Not Resistance caps.  Not unless you heavily build for Resistance. Or are using one of a couple of resist friendly primaries.  So they lost out.   

 

So no one wants to give up taunt auras for scrappers, ok.  Some want more taunt auras for other scrappers.  Whatevs.  But what about Brutes?  Seems like BS from their standpoint. 

 

I generally hate power creep.  But if you are going to have it anyway, deal it out fairly.   

 

[Haijinx]

28 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Not with the ridiculous damage output they're capable of now. Not even no, or even hell no, but a big whoppin #*($&#($*&#($*& NO.

 

Please note, I didn't mean caps there.  I meant scaling

 

So you'd get for armor set scaling 

100% Tankers (same as now, PRIMARY)

80% Brutes (Improvement from now, Secondary)

75% Scrapper, Stalker (Same as now, Secondary)

70% Sent (same as now, Secondary) 

 

Could you argue Tankers should be LESS than 100%?  Probably.   But I was only trying to suggest a nudge Brutes up slightly to compensate for the damage they already lost.  Not address Tankers generous Damage Buff at all.