Can we please NOT force "Trinity Gaming" in CoX? (Dr Khan)

[Alchemystic]

17 hours ago, Solarverse said:

 

I for one miss the trinity play-style this game once had. This game is just simply not that anymore and it never will be again.

 

17 hours ago, Luminara said:

It never was.

 

 

It wasn't so much a "trinity" but it did have classic RPG roles.

 

It's still comparable to the traditional DPS/Tank/Support formula, but the DPS and Support roles were split between Blaster and Scrapper, and Defender and Controller respectively. In those early years of the game team composition was very important, as players had to rely on the base mechanics of their archetypes unadulterated by IOs or Incarnate powers.

 

With the introduction of CoV, new archetypes compounded elements of the old ones, so moving forward the lines were blurred as there was less of a focus on dedicated roles anymore, especially when IOs came out not long after. Then if you fast forward to Going Rogue, all archetypes could intermingle, eliminating the need for specific hero/villain team compositions entirely, and with Incarnate powers allowing for far greater flexibility.

 

So the game certainly had a 'trinity play-style', though now those roles aren't as apparent anymore.

 

 

16 hours ago, Solarverse said:

It was for me...accept Controllers added a 4th to that. 

 

I can see that.

 

Judging by the Incarnate Hybrid slot abilities, we have Assault (DPS), Melee (Tank), Support, and lastly the 4th one; Control.

 

 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Tyrannical

[Cherry]

16 hours ago, Templarstone said:

For reference- 

Story Arc Updates

 

Barracuda Strike Force

 

Power of Black Scorpion (the power required to kill Reichsman) is now always granted to the team leader, regardless of Archetype

Defenders now receive Power of Ghost Widow

Masterminds now receive Power of Captain Mako

Removed broken hospital in the first mission of the Barracuda SF which caused you to get stuck outside the map

id like to highlight your signature quote. its pretty spot on.

 

"This is not the City of Heroes that you remember ,  it is a new game built on what we were forced to leave behind.  Change is going to happen , because Homecoming is not your personal museum to hold your nostalgic torch too.   It has active development and will continue to evolve just like the City of Heroes we knew was changing and evolving and was about to change in massive ways.  "

 

Forum Post count does not = Game Intelligence or Knowledge  it just shows how often people like to talk.

[PeregrineFalcon]

Just chiming in because I noticed that you all missed an important part of what I wrote: "that was the post-EQ/pre-WoW trinity that existed in 2003." Sit down, youngsters, and listen to grandpa for a minute.

 

Back before WoW the trinity was Tank/Heal/Control. The concept of a DPS character was starting to become a thing as well, and game developers were starting to like controls less and less. Which is why more modern games, have very little in the way of control, but I digress. Shortly after WoW launched the trinity got morphed, in the collective consciousness, to Tank/Heal/DPS.

 

And yes, the original Cryptic developers did talk back then, in the forums and in interviews, about the trinity. The classes and game were designed with the trinity "in mind", the game just wasn't designed for them to be mandatory. Just because the trinity isn't mandatory doesn't mean that it wasn't thought about or "in mind." Geez, one of our classes is even called a Tanker. That alone should be enough evidence.

 

Ok, youngsters. Class dismissed.

[golstat2003]

11 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Especially with today's game. There has been no team make-up that I felt couldn't accomplish anything in this game since IOs came out. That is cute though how some players still feel that they have to have a particular team make-up though. I'm not one of them...not since IO's. Now for nostalgia, I love when it happens by chance though, but I don't strive for it.

 

Yeah. NO.

 

That was true EVEN BEFORE IOs.

 

Some of us have VERY different memories of the game.

[Solarverse]

27 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

 

Yeah. NO.

 

That was true EVEN BEFORE IOs.

 

Some of us have VERY different memories of the game.

I noticed, heh.

[Arbegla]

I remember when the LRSF first came out that it was literally 1 Stone Brute, and 7 corruptors (not MMs, no Dominators, no Stalkers...) Because noone knew how to take out all the AVs without that level of durability and support.

 

On Liberty, my Bot/traps was one of the first Masterminds to be dragged around on a LRSF, before people knew the power of what /traps can do. Things changed with the times, its really that simple.

 

When the game first came out, people were used to certain things so they did certain things, and once they realized that those certain things didn't need to happen, and actually, running an all Controller team, or all Defender team was MORE effective then you're typical 'Tank/DPS/Heals' group.

[arcane]

35 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

 

Yeah. NO.

 

That was true EVEN BEFORE IOs.

 

Some of us have VERY different memories of the game.

Can you please link me to a video where 8 SO’d Dominators or Stalkers have completed the LRSF when it first came out, or something similar that would offer evidence supporting your version of the story. Or maybe 8 SO’d Blasters herding Monster Island. There are tons of CoH youtube videos, I’m sure there’s just mountains of evidence if my memory is incorrect.

 

(Apologies if my skepticism is too obvious I mean no personal offense <3)

Edited June 17, 2021 by arcane

[Arbegla]

11 minutes ago, arcane said:

Can you please link me to a video where 8 SO’d Dominators or Stalkers have completed the LRSF when it first came out, or something similar that would offer evidence supporting your version of the story. Or maybe 8 SO’d Blasters herding Monster Island. There are tons of CoH youtube videos, I’m sure there’s just mountains of evidence if my memory is incorrect.

 

(Apologies if my skepticism is too obvious I mean no personal offense <3)

 

Umm... that might actually be impossible, mostly because City of Heroes is literally older than 15 years old, and youtube has done more than a few scrubs since then.

[arcane]

Just now, Arbegla said:

 

Umm... that might actually be impossible, mostly because City of Heroes is literally older than 15 years old, and youtube has done more than a few scrubs since then.

Hmm, well they have a 13-year old video still that I made once. But yeah maybe we’ll never really know.

[golstat2003]

15 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

 

When the game first came out, people were used to certain things so they did certain things, and once they realized that those certain things didn't need to happen, and actually, running an all Controller team, or all Defender team was MORE effective then you're typical 'Tank/DPS/Heals' group.

 

Quoted for emphasis since part of the point of SGs like Repeat Offenders from what I recall, were specifically about team setups like this.

 

This is as far from traditional Trinity / RPG classic setup as you can get.

Edited June 17, 2021 by golstat2003

[Solarverse]

Just now, golstat2003 said:

 

Quoted for emphasis since part of SGs like Repeat Offenders from what I recall, were specifically about team setups like this.

 

This is as far from traditional Trinity / RPG classic setup as you can get.

Sounds like a bunch of Elitists. So is that what we are compared to...the rest of us I mean? Elitists always do things that nobody else can do. I and players on my level on the other hand are just not that.

[Arbegla]

5 minutes ago, arcane said:

Hmm, well they have a 13-year old video still that I made once. But yeah maybe we’ll never really know.

 

And they don't have the beta video of me (a bot/traps Mastermind) and Pulsaria (a grav/energy Dominator) duo-ing the ITF before it hit live, when people were screaming for it to be nerfed. And I'm pretty sure Purples, ATO, and PvP IOs weren't a thing when that happened.

[golstat2003]

1 minute ago, Solarverse said:

Sounds like a bunch of Elitists. So is that what we are compared to...the rest of us I mean? Elitists always do things that nobody else can do. I and players on my level on the other hand are just not that.

 

How is that elitist? I'm generally confused lol

 

it's just find 8 defenders or 8 corrupters and go.

 

Umm . . . huh?

 

Repeat Offenders (and folks that just formed teams like the above, aka not giving a rat's behind about traditionally trinity play) existed well before IOs. I don't get what you are saying.

Edited June 17, 2021 by golstat2003

[Arbegla]

6 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Sounds like a bunch of Elitists. So is that what we are compared to...the rest of us I mean? Elitists always do things that nobody else can do. I and players on my level on the other hand are just not that.

 

I really don't understand why it would be elitist to go 'We ran a Supergroup that was literally 'Oops all Defenders' and we rocked' especially when its just a numbers game. Healing is actually the LEAST EFFECTIVE mitigation in this game, mostly due to the fact that hit point totals are so low.

[golstat2003]

Seriously am I missing something here or have folks forgotten how powerful it was (and to an extent still is) to have a more control and buff/debuffing than tank/heal/dps on your team?

 

Like I remember threads where folks would inform folks that empathy really isn't that important if you have debuffs/buffs/control.

 

Like I'm seriously not getting some of the comments in this thread.

 

There is a VERY different memory of this game back in the day that some of us have than others. lol

[golstat2003]

1 minute ago, Arbegla said:

 

I really don't understand why it would be elitist to go 'We ran a Supergroup that was literally 'Oops all Defenders' and we rocked' especially when its just a numbers game. Healing is actually the LEAST EFFECTIVE mitigation in this game, mostly due to the fact that hit point totals are so low.

 

Yeah seriously HP in this game is not like that of bosses in WOW or other games.

 

Or heaven forbid FFXIV Online for some bosses.

 

Nothing in this game's past or present is anywhere near those in terms of trinity play. (Freaking FFXIV online mandates it in nearly every place).

[arcane]

6 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

Seriously am I missing something here or have folks forgotten how powerful it was (and to an extent still is) to have a more control and buff/debuffing than tank/heal/dps on your team?

 

Like I remember threads where folks would inform folks that empathy really isn't that important if you have debuffs/buffs/control.

 

Like I'm seriously not getting some of the comments in this thread.

 

There is a VERY different memory of this game back in the day that some of us have than others. lol

That’s why I didn’t say 8 defenders, controllers, or corruptors. I asked about blasters and dominators primarily because they are the examples I am actually skeptical of. All possible groupings of 8 must be successful for this “roles don’t matter” narrative to have been entirely true.

 

Obviously 8 support was always fine because they make everyone tankmages. But that alone doesn’t support your position that roles never mattered.

Edited June 17, 2021 by arcane

[Arbegla]

9 minutes ago, arcane said:

That’s why I didn’t say 8 defenders, controllers, or corruptors. I asked about blasters and dominators primarily because they are the examples I am actually skeptical of. All possible groupings of 8 must be successful for this “roles don’t matter” narrative to have been entirely true.

 

I mean, I'm sure it could be possible for that to be done today. get 8 blasters or dominators with just SOs, and go run it. The difficulty of the task forces hasn't changed throughout the years, just the things that the players have access to...

[Solarverse]

2 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

 

How is that elitist? I'm generally confused lol

 

it's just find 8 defenders or 8 corrupters and go.

 

Umm . . . huh?

 

Repeat Offenders (and folks that just formed teams like the above, aka not giving a rat's behind about traditionally trinity play) existed well before IOs. I don't get what you are saying.

 

Oh I see where your head is now. Look, I get that players have always been able to stack a team of 8 defenders and whoop down AV's. You stack enough debuffs on them they crash and burn. But really, that is not an "average" team you are talking about. What you just named off is a team completely designed to do one thing and one thing only...take an AV's accuracy, damage output, defense and regeneration and bring it to its knees.

I think the point that I am trying to make here is being missed in our case. My point is, in general, this game out of the ox was designed for a well balanced team, I.E., Trinity play style. You were not going to run in and take down (Synapse here, not even end game content) Clockwork King with 3 Blasters, 3 Scrappers and 2 Controllers. You had to have Debuffs, you had to have Heals, you had to have a solid Tank who could take Psionic Damage or avoid it or a Tank who had enough Healers backing him up that the Healers could heal the Tank through that damage.

Now I am sure you are thinking, "What? Clockwork King? Are you joking?" No...Clockwork King used to be a LOT harder than what he is now...I don't know if that is because he was nerfed, or if it is because power sets have been buffed to hell and back or maybe a mixture of the two...or...if it is because of the revamp that took place after E.D. But the way I remember it, the game generally seemed designed around balanced teams.

Again, it is just my opinion. No need for confused faces...I fracken hate confused faces.   😠

[golstat2003]

12 minutes ago, arcane said:

That’s why I didn’t say 8 defenders, controllers, or corruptors. I asked about blasters and dominators primarily because they are the examples I am actually skeptical of. All possible groupings of 8 must be successful for this “roles don’t matter” narrative to have been entirely true.

 

Obviously 8 support was always fine because they make everyone tankmages. But that alone doesn’t support your position that roles never mattered.

 

My argument is that traditional tank/dps/heal never existed in coh. It didnt.

[arcane]

4 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

I mean, I'm sure it could be possible for that to be done today. get 8 blasters or dominators with just SOs, and go run it. The difficulty of the task forces hasn't changed throughout the years, just the things that the players have access to...

Would probably need to be Dominators since Blasters have been buffed like crazy. Dominators have been buffed out of perma-dom too but oh well. Let’s say LRSF, 8 dominators, only SO’s, no incarnates, no temp powers, no emailing inspirations or purchasing t3’s. Shouldn’t need any of that if the spirit of this narrative is correct.

[Solarverse]

Just now, golstat2003 said:

 

My argument is that traditional tank/dps/heal never existed in coh. It didnt.

 

Okay, just so that we all understand that there is some common ground here...there have been and always have been exceptions to the "trinity" rule...however...I still believe that "generally speaking" the Devs had a trinity play style in mind when creating the classes and when judging the difficulty of the game.

[golstat2003]

7 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

 

Oh I see where your head is now. Look, I get that players have always been able to stack a team of 8 defenders and whoop down AV's. You stack enough debuffs on them they crash and burn. But really, that is not an "average" team you are talking about. What you just named off is a team completely designed to do one thing and one thing only...take an AV's accuracy, damage output, defense and regeneration and bring it to its knees.

I think the point that I am trying to make here is being missed in our case. My point is, in general, this game out of the ox was designed for a well balanced team, I.E., Trinity play style. You were not going to run in and take down (Synapse here, not even end game content) Clockwork King with 3 Blasters, 3 Scrappers and 2 Controllers. You had to have Debuffs, you had to have Heals, you had to have a solid Tank who could take Psionic Damage or avoid it or a Tank who had enough Healers backing him up that the Healers could heal the Tank through that damage.

Now I am sure you are thinking, "What? Clockwork King? Are you joking?" No...Clockwork King used to be a LOT harder than what he is now...I don't know if that is because he was nerfed, or if it is because power sets have been buffed to hell and back or maybe a mixture of the two...or...if it is because of the revamp that took place after E.D. But the way I remember it, the game generally seemed designed around balanced teams.

Again, it is just my opinion. No need for confused faces...I fracken hate confused faces.   😠

 

I would consider a well balanced team to be one with a blaster, controllers, defenders, etc. No need for a traditional healer or tank. In some specific content sure, but generally across COH. Not really. That was true even before IOs. Reapeat Offenders is just one example of taking that to the extreme.

[arcane]

Just now, golstat2003 said:

 

My argument is that traditional tank/dps/heal never existed in coh. It didnt.

Ok well I agree most with the guy that said there is no “hard trinity” but there was once a “soft trinity” in which team composition was relevant to success. Can we agree with that?

[golstat2003]

2 minutes ago, arcane said:

Ok well I agree most with the guy that said there is no “hard trinity” but there was once a “soft trinity” in which team composition was relevant to success. Can we agree with that?

 

If I get a team of 2 defenders, 2 dominators, 2 blasters, 2 controllers would you consider that soft trinity? If so then sure.

Edited June 17, 2021 by golstat2003