Can we please NOT force "Trinity Gaming" in CoX? (Dr Khan)

[WhiteNightingale]

(EDITED: Because seemingly it was all a freak incident and Khan's team size never got downsized to 4. Probably a mistake on my part mixed with an unverified report by a source I won't blame because honestly it was my fault for not properly verifying it. I apologize).

Edited June 17, 2021 by WhiteNightingale
MISTAAAAAAKE

[Apparition]

The required team size back on live was a minimum of four people.  In addition, it was available in Issue 15, four issues before any Incarnate abilities or content.  It was achievable with four people before Incarnates, it can definitely be achieved with four people with Incarnates.  Heck, it can even be soloed now.

 

Some teams will do better than others.  The same goes for all other content in City of Heroes.  Some teams will take twenty minutes to wittle Reichsman down, others five minutes.  You should have decent debuffs.  Cold, Dark Miasma, Rad, Trick Arrow.  Psionic damage is a big help, (Psionic Blast or Psionic Melee).

 

City of Heroes is a game where you can do nearly anything with nearly any group composition.  You can do the Dr. Kahn TF with any group composition.  You've done it.  And, just like anything else in CoH, you can do content much more efficiently and more quickly with a group composition more tailored for the task at hand.  That doesn't mean that it's broken nor that it needs to be changed.

Edited June 15, 2021 by Apparition

[Naraka]

Did you try taking it on at a lower level of difficulty? Or turn AVs off?

[Mr. Vee]

"Trinity play" I tend to understand as tank/dps/heals, which would be just as derpy for Reichs as most of the rest of the game. Debuffs are the way to go on him. And yeah, he's a big bag of HP with some cheap tricks but hardly impossible for 45's.

[AerialAssault]

Funnily enough, Reichsman is an AV you don't want to bring a Trinity team into. Rather, what you want is some support to debuff Reichsman enough for the damage dealers on the team to start dealing heavy damage. If your only source of damage is Judgement powers then you're going to be waiting a long time to chip through their monstrous 200k+ health pool.

 

I've often found Reichsman a dull fight but far from impossible on anything but the most disorganized teams.

 

I'll admit that I find it funny that a team of Incarnates fight something that won't immediately die to their awesome god powers and assume it's the fault of the game.

[ZorkNemesis]

1 hour ago, Naraka said:

Did you try taking it on at a lower level of difficulty? Or turn AVs off?

 

You can't turn AVs off on a TF.  Also Reischman would probably ignore that setting anyway, given he's the damn Reischman.

[Monos King]

3 hours ago, ZorkNemesis said:

 

You can't turn AVs off on a TF.  Also Reischman would probably ignore that setting anyway, given he's the damn Reischman.

Whats funny is, seeing as his rank is literally separate from arch-villains as just "Reichsman" he totally would be immune to that setting lmao

[Apparition]

6 hours ago, Mr. Vee said:

"Trinity play" I tend to understand as tank/dps/heals, which would be just as derpy for Reichs as most of the rest of the game. Debuffs are the way to go on him. And yeah, he's a big bag of HP with some cheap tricks but hardly impossible for 45's.

 

 

Yep.  You definitely don't need the trinity when fighting Reichsman.  You don't need a Brute nor a Tanker.  You don't need healing.  All you need is some debuffs.  I'm assuming that the OP had none.  Again, like I said above psionic damage really helps as well in this particular case, but it is far from needed.

[BrandX]

What was your team and what was your difficulty setting?

 

You said Incarnates.  Did you all have LORE pets?

 

It's already been stated, the TF came out before Incarnates were a thing.  

[Razor Cure]

Sorry your team struggled. But it also makes me laugh a LOT, given how much tought the red side version was/is/can be.

[kelika2]

you dont just pop incarnate stuff and get it done in like a minute?

[Sovera]

Reichman does not require the trinity. It is one of the few TFs in the game that -does- require a few team slots dedicated just for him.

 

Just like Lady Grey's TF -must- have Controllers or the team stalls so does Reichman nearly demands the team leader being savvy in bringing something that can debuff it efficiently (and the knowledge to run the TF at whatever difficulty they want, but do the last mission at +0 if they want to save themselves a lot of time).

[CaptainLupis]

33 minutes ago, Sovera said:

Reichman does not require the trinity. It is one of the few TFs in the game that -does- require a few team slots dedicated just for him.

 

Just like Lady Grey's TF -must- have Controllers or the team stalls so does Reichman nearly demands the team leader being savvy in bringing something that can debuff it efficiently (and the knowledge to run the TF at whatever difficulty they want, but do the last mission at +0 if they want to save themselves a lot of time).

Lady Grey TF doesn't really need controllers, I did it with 2 MMs that had one epic hold between them. Admittedly they were demons and necro pets, so a couple of holds in there, but still, no controllers required.

[nihilii]

Right, one standard hold with 16s recharge slotted 3 rech / 3 hold on a "standard" IO build running ~70%ish global recharge + Hasten will do the trick for LGTF. I think just about every AT can access that, so it's soloable for everyone given enough investment. If you have 2 characters with holds, no dedicated slotting required.

Reichsman is mosty the same. I don't think debuffs are all that important. His regeneration isn't all that impressive, it's the HP pool that is bonkers. You need damage most of all. I don't have characters strong enough to solo Khan, but I often dualbox Khan or Barracuda, and my duos are typically "damage guy" + "other damage guy".

[Thrythlind]

Last time I faced Reichsman was on Live and I was a Dark/Elec Defender and basically it was a long slugfest in which he couldn't do much but struggle because I'd debuffed him into the ground. That was well before incarnates were released.

[golstat2003]

4 hours ago, Sovera said:

Reichman does not require the trinity. It is one of the few TFs in the game that -does- require a few team slots dedicated just for him.

 

Just like Lady Grey's TF -must- have Controllers or the team stalls so does Reichman nearly demands the team leader being savvy in bringing something that can debuff it efficiently (and the knowledge to run the TF at whatever difficulty they want, but do the last mission at +0 if they want to save themselves a lot of time).

 

I pretty much try to look for at least 1-2 debuffers minimum when forming for high level tfs. (There aren't that many so it's not a burden for team forming).

[Apparition]

4 hours ago, nihilii said:

Right, one standard hold with 16s recharge slotted 3 rech / 3 hold on a "standard" IO build running ~70%ish global recharge + Hasten will do the trick for LGTF. I think just about every AT can access that, so it's soloable for everyone given enough investment. If you have 2 characters with holds, no dedicated slotting required.

Reichsman is mosty the same. I don't think debuffs are all that important. His regeneration isn't all that impressive, it's the HP pool that is bonkers. You need damage most of all. I don't have characters strong enough to solo Khan, but I often dualbox Khan or Barracuda, and my duos are typically "damage guy" + "other damage guy".

 

 

Debuffs are definitely important.  Damage + damage doesn't really work with Reichsman in my experience.  One of the worst experiences I've had fighting him was on an all level 50 Stalker team.  It took over twenty minutes to finish him.  It really didn't help that the majority of us were s/l damage.  On the other hand, as long as you have at least one debuffer, it easily takes less than half that.

[Luminara]

4 hours ago, nihilii said:

I don't think debuffs are all that important.

 

4 hours ago, nihilii said:

You need damage most of all.

 

-Res what?

[arcane]

Yeah I’ve never had an ounce of trouble on this tf, but it sounds like there’s something I’m taking for granted.

[nihilii]

3 hours ago, Luminara said:

-Res what?

is good because it multiplies damage. That's a given. I only mean to challenge the notion debuffs are critical to the point a Khan team without debuffs is doomed.

Not necessarily just in this thread. I've seen people lament they need more -regen or -res... But -res isn't going to help during those fast Unstoppable cycles, and -regen isn't what makes a dent in his 220k potentially bumped to 300k HP. A combo of both, if you have enough to shut down his regen entirely, might let you succeed in the end.

 

Still, I think in this particular fight, there's better returns to be had in situational awareness.

 

i.e.

- unload at full strength between his Unstoppable cycles, and focus on using misc clicks, buffs, staying alive, keeping his regen in check while he's using Unstoppable.

- aggro holder should stick to melee, or if there's no aggro holder, make sure to stick in melee. Apply constant damage ideally. Being at range and "uninterrupted" seems to be what prompts him to use Dull Pain.

- watch for those Thunder Fist stunning through mez protection, and protect yourself in advance. I feel the single most likely cause of failure in a poorly organized PuG is when the team is barely making progress, then someone gets mezzed and dies, and it all goes downhill as others get distracted, try to rez him, etc..

 

Come to think of it, given that last point in particular, I'd welcome buffs more than debuffs in a weak PuG doing Khan. Making sure everyone is staying alive and well is the best way to ensure they're dealing damage.

 

But, yeah, I guess I'm more sour about this topic than I thought, now that I think about it. It's a pet peeve of mine to watch players lose fights due to their inability to switch tactics, give up, and attribute said failure to some team meta they should have had. In the grand scheme of things, if we're talking about a full team, it's obvious adding one competent debuffer is the best bang for your buck and is also more practical than expecting 7 casual players to magically improve their game.

Edited June 16, 2021 by nihilii

[arcane]

3 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

 

-Res what?

By the way, to what extent is it still important such a thing comes from a support AT? Most of my characters have a -res proc, many have like 3-4.

[Apparition]

11 minutes ago, arcane said:

By the way, to what extent is it still important such a thing comes from a support AT? Most of my characters have a -res proc, many have like 3-4.

 

Important, because I certainly wouldn’t expect a mostly or entirely PUG team to have -res procs slotted.  Heck, while I have a couple of builds with multiple -res procs slotted, most only have one, and quite a few have none.  Bringing a debuffer guarantees that you will have debuffs.

Edited June 16, 2021 by Apparition

[Luminara]

3 minutes ago, arcane said:

By the way, to what extent is it still important such a thing comes from a support AT? Most of my characters have a -res proc, many have like 3-4.

 

If I had to make an objective assessment based on the ready availability of -Res for all characters, in pools, procs and Incarnate abilities, I'd surmise that the fact that specific archetypes, and specific sets within those archetypes, allowing significantly greater amounts of -Res than external sources can provide was what was considered important during the original development cycle of the game.

 

In other words, my TA/Dark's -Res is always going to be higher than your Punchy/Dodgy's -Res, and guaranteed in both availability and application, and that's what the developers considered important.  Everyone can deal damage, but some specialize in dealing damage while others deal just enough damage to "get by".  In the same vein, everyone can apply -Res, but some specialize in applying -Res while others work within a more limited application framework (from a single-target pool power, or from a long recharge *PP power, or rolling the dice on procs).

 

I believe the only people who would consider it important to rely on a support character for -Res are the ones with the specific agenda of making teams "need" or want support characters.  No-one else really gives a shit, as long as the job is done at the end of the day.

[PeregrineFalcon]

You know, I read some of these threads and I wonder if some of you even understand the state that the game is currently in.

 

The game was already designed and built and ran and shut down. The current team of volunteers are trying to run the game that we used to play, not create their own. This is important because the game launched, 17 years ago, with a trinity. Tanker class, Defender class, Controller class - that was the post-EQ/pre-WoW trinity that existed in 2003 when the developers were applying the finishing touches to this game to get it ready to launch.

 

If you really wanted there to be no trinity in this game then you should have posted this on the beta forums back in March 2004. You're a little bit too late now.

[Ruin Mage]

The only TF that requires specific ATs is the Baracudda SF.

Because it has mechanics for it.

You can get away with any sort of combination/set up for Kahn, though your mileage may vary based on competency on playing an ancient MMO.

TBH, we need more stuff like the Bara SF.

Edited June 16, 2021 by Shadeknight