New Support Friendly IO sets

[MsSmart]

This is only a recommendation to assist support classes to have better means to provide support, as opposed to spending the majority of their IO slots in trying to figure how to survive first and then see what is left to help the team do better.

 

The above statement, addresses the dilemma of all support classes, do I use my IO slots to be more survivable so I am more likely to be able to support (buff) my team mates albeit a bit mediocre; or do I remain highly susceptible to be spammed status effected, and killed since I am glass jawed natured but my buffs are out of this world?

 

When designing these support alts, it is very much a bit of magic and science to it, what is the best compromise between dying real quickly and not being able to do my job, but while I can, wow are my buffs good or being extremely survivable but my buffs are nothing to be excited about.

 

So this QoL is to make these difficult decisions less hard.

 

If you look at the vast majority of IO sets, you will see that movement, regeneration of hits and end are usually given in the first two IO combos, by the third IO combo usually you see resistances bonuses, the fourth IO combo is usually improvements to damage, accuracy, and power recharge buffs, and lastly on the 5th and 6th IO you see specific and positional defense improvements which are very valuable to support type's survivability.

 

Because support types have to use 5 and 6 IOs to get what they critically need for survival, they do not get to "Franken-Slot" as much as in my experience my melee types can; which has tremendous impact in your character's performance.

 

By having on the 2 combo give specific defenses at 2.5% each for 4 different forms of specific attacks, and the 3rd combo give 2.5% to the three positional defense types, it will allow the support to use the remaining slots to intensify the effects of the powers used for support, that is my healer can heal you faster and with greater magnitude, and also be more resilient to the spam status effects and barrage of NPC AOEs, PBAOEs, etc. Same with other support classes that provides you buffs or de-buff the enemy.

 

Also note that this recommendation would also provide great benefit for Scrapers type classes as well, which is always a good thing :<)

 

Hugs

 

Sue

 

PS: I do not, repeat, do not, advocate to change existing IO sets! I am asking for new ones to be created over time, and not immediately, but perhaps release a couple of IO sets per game release, thus a slow steady improvement.

 

[aethereal]

Anything that makes defense easier to get with fewer slot investments will benefit DPS more than support, and further skew the game to be DPS-heavy.

[Andreah]

These could be limited by archetype, by tagging them into a (hypothetical) new set of ATO/SATOs.

[arcane]

I’m sorry Sue, but I would be opposed to making any defense set bonuses easier to get at this point. 

[Greycat]

I ... honestly have to wonder what you're doing if your support is getting killed/mezzed that fast and that often. About the only time I see that is on MSRs during the bomb (and very beginning of bowl rush) phase, and even that's not always a mass of death.  Maybe in PVP, but that's a vastly different environment with very specific needs.

 

Plus... yeah, I'd have to agree, these would just be gobbled up by DPS. Most have some sort of self heal (or +regen) that would use the exact same sets, and probably more than one if you're throwing bonuses in that early. Other support types? +Def (FF, fortitude, etc.) and +res buffs would obviously be grabbed instantly, and even some you think might be "safe" to do this with (say, def debuff) can be taken - and probably would, for the min/maxers - in some attack sets.

[aethereal]

1 minute ago, Greycat said:

I ... honestly have to wonder what you're doing if your support is getting killed/mezzed that fast and that often. About the only time I see that is on MSRs during the bomb (and very beginning of bowl rush) phase, and even that's not always a mass of death.  Maybe in PVP, but that's a vastly different environment with very specific needs.

 

Plus... yeah, I'd have to agree, these would just be gobbled up by DPS. Most have some sort of self heal (or +regen) that would use the exact same sets, and probably more than one if you're throwing bonuses in that early. Other support types? +Def (FF, fortitude, etc.) and +res buffs would obviously be grabbed instantly, and even some you think might be "safe" to do this with (say, def debuff) can be taken - and probably would, for the min/maxers - in some attack sets.

Def debuff -- available on every single one of Rad Blast's attacks and a not insignificant number of melee attacks.  To-hit-debuff -- all dark sets.

 

There are a few exotic mezz types that aren't very available to DPS -- confuse, perhaps most prominently, but there are also very few fears.  But those mezzes also aren't available to the overwhelming majority of support.

 

If we did want to try to patch AT balance with sets (which is probably not a good idea in general), the right thing to do would be to make the sets be of new types that were simply not available to the DPS ATs, and just grant access to those sets to appropriate powers in the appropriate ATs.

 

But at that point, why not just, like, give those ATs stronger Epic Armors or something?

[MsSmart]

I concede that a massive change to huge number of IO types where you reverse defense with resistances, could be perhaps hurt the balance. But if we limit the type of IOs that the reversal of resistance and defense with regards to how many combos in a set is required, would like provide the utility I seek for the support types.

 

I would think Defensive set of IOs with reversed Resistance with Defense, would not be unbalanced, since Defense IO slotting powers are few for support, in general short of weave and leadership, you may get one or two more additional opportunities to slot them.

 

I can see "pure" buff and status effect sets, that is powers that purely does a status effect (hold, immob, etc) or buff (regen, recharge, etc) would have versions where the resistance improvements based on numbers of IOs in the set  with defensive improvements. Note that powers that does something else and has a status effect as a side would not get these reversed IO improvement sets.

 

Grey Cat:

     The reason you don't see support dying like flies, is because the player does pay much more attention in order to survive than a melee for obvious reasons, besides that, its the IO builds that makes the difference, a huge difference! But the price of this survivability you see so well and comment about, does come at a price, that is their support quality is modest at best. What I seek is to find ways to improve in that support quality. My first stab of improving the quality of support was by making it easier for support to Franken-slot their characters with out compromising their survivability, and to do that, if the defense improvements came before the resistance improvements in some IO sets, it would then, go a long way to accomplish my goal of having better quality of support through Franken-slotting.

 

Now a little context:

 

     I have tankers, really ultra survivable tankers (some I am yet to see an AV or bunches of mobs hurt them), yet despite of being super tankers they have reasonably descent DPS because I can Franken-slot ( you would think the price of being invulnerable, would be really bad DPS). Since I can, why do I say I can Franken-slot them very easily? Because a huge number of IOs give me regeneration or recovery with the first 2 IOs, and the 3rd and 4th IOs loads me up with resistances; little wonder my tankers get to be so good so easily. Scrapers don't have it so easy, for they are mostly defense dependent for survival, and unlike support, they get lots of defensive IO slotting opportunities, yet a little help with the reversed IO improvements will go a long way in helping them as well.

 

As a question for my edification:

 

     I saw comments of issue with Blasters (DPS), having better defense (doubtfully they would get much out of this, since they get so few defensive powers to take advantage of the reversal), and potentially more DPS. Can someone describe, why is it so bad, for the "glass cannon" folks to have? How does it break anything? Please note, I am not saying it does not, all I am asking is for the how, what are the mechanics, I see this as a learning opportunity, so please help me learn and understand.

 

Thank you

 

Sue

 

 

[Greycat]

21 minutes ago, MsSmart said:

 

Grey Cat:

     The reason you don't see support dying like flies, is because the player does pay much more attention in order to survive than a melee for obvious reasons, besides that, its the IO builds that makes the difference, a huge difference! But the price of this survivability you see so well and comment about, does come at a price, that is their support quality is modest at best. What I seek is to find ways to improve in that support quality. My first stab of improving the quality of support was by making it easier for support to Franken-slot their characters with out compromising their survivability, and to do that, if the defense improvements came before the resistance improvements in some IO sets, it would then, go a long way to accomplish my goal of having better quality of support through Franken-slotting.

 

All I can say is that I 100% disagree with the premise you're starting with. Can IO builds make a difference? Sure. But I play quite a bit of support. I don't do "builds." And I haven't had survivability problems, or support problems. I'll be on commons late into a character's life - and, of course, played back when we didn't *have* IO sets and the game was a bit rougher.

 

What it *sounds* like, to me (and I may be wrong on it, but I've run into it enough that this is sounding familiar) is that you might be concentrating too much on one side of the character. "I'm a bubbler" or "I'm Kinetic" or (shudder) "I'm a healer," that last one being the worst because of concepts hauled in from other games that just aren't needed here ("Focus on healing, let the DPS do the damage, if you're doing anything but healing you're doing it wrong" - and in some other games that's certainly needed... but not *here.*) A more *balanced* character can do a lot more *without* having to focus on just one side or the other. Granted, it's easier with some sets - FF throws out bubbles with two clicks on the team every four minutes, for instance, and hangs close enough for dispersion bubble to help the squishies who are probably a bit away from the fight - than with others, but your blasts (which for most sets are also debuffing) and / or controls are going to make a huge difference in team survivability as well. And sadly they're ignored by some percentage of support players in favor of "I need full leadership" or "Hasten+Medicine pool."

 

They also, though, can give that survivability you're looking to new IO sets to add. For instance, defenders and corrupters... just out of *habit,* I tend to load their ST ranged up with thunderstrikes because I like the set and it's reasonably cheap. What does it end up giving as bonuses? Recovery (helpful on busier support sets,) and ranged and energy defense. You're not going to softcap that, but it's enough to be pretty useful.

[kikyoku]

OK but, how about a new category of IOs that can only be used on support abilities?

 

Like specifically tag powers that don't buff the user. That would basically lock out tanks/dps builds from using them.

 

I too have had issues on supports of difficult survivability, which is an inherent function of the class, I get it, but supports are already being marginalized in incarnate content, making them more mez resistant or damage resistant would help them get by. Forcing them to take pool powers and specific sets to survive splash damage dilutes their strengths considerably.

 

They definitely don't need sets that just hands out free defense, but some anti - mez procs or bonuses to support functions instead of regen/recovery (which support ATs tend to have less issues with) would be nice.

[...]

I think the problem is the massive amount of survivability that IO sets can give. Specifically, blasters, scrappers and stalkers can become tank-mages. 

 

Brutes and Tanks are already tank-mages.

 

Why play support at all?

 

Honestly, the game has had way too much power-creep since live. Time for nerfs! NERF IOs! NERF Nukes! Nerf brutes! NERF ALL THE THINGS!!!1!

[arcane]

6 minutes ago, Vooded said:

Why play support at all?

Pfft, this nonsense again. Support is amazing in this game. 

[...]

7 minutes ago, arcane said:

Pfft, this nonsense again. Support is amazing in this game. 

 

U right, I wrong.

 

But seriously, there has been too much powercreep since the early days of live.

[arcane]

5 minutes ago, Vooded said:

 

U right, I wrong.

 

But seriously, there has been too much powercreep since the early days of live.

True dat in every way

[SwitchFade]

Sorry, the premise of the case for change here is flawed.

 

Support sets are extremely potent. Here's a list of support sets that can not only solo, but turn a team into a freight train of bonkersauce

 

Earth/storm

Fire/kin

Rad/dark

Dark/dark

/Plant

Kin/rad

/Time

I'll/kin

 

 

The list goes on and on...

 

On all of these it's quite easy to hit absurd levels of mitigation, damage, support and control.

 

I would have to respectfully...

 

No vote.

Edited June 22, 2021 by SwitchFade

[JayboH]

30 minutes ago, Vooded said:

I think the problem is the massive amount of survivability that IO sets can give. Specifically, blasters, scrappers and stalkers can become tank-mages. 

 

Brutes and Tanks are already tank-mages.

 

Why play support at all?

 

Honestly, the game has had way too much power-creep since live. Time for nerfs! NERF IOs! NERF Nukes! Nerf brutes! NERF ALL THE THINGS!!!1!

More creep was planned, we were only going to get more powerful, by design, intentionally.

 

...granted new challenges were planned for that increase of course.

[MsSmart]

2 hours ago, Greycat said:

 

All I can say is that I 100% disagree with the premise you're starting with. Can IO builds make a difference? Sure. But I play quite a bit of support. I don't do "builds." And I haven't had survivability problems, or support problems. I'll be on commons late into a character's life - and, of course, played back when we didn't *have* IO sets and the game was a bit rougher.

 

What it *sounds* like, to me (and I may be wrong on it, but I've run into it enough that this is sounding familiar) is that you might be concentrating too much on one side of the character. "I'm a bubbler" or "I'm Kinetic" or (shudder) "I'm a healer," that last one being the worst because of concepts hauled in from other games that just aren't needed here ("Focus on healing, let the DPS do the damage, if you're doing anything but healing you're doing it wrong" - and in some other games that's certainly needed... but not *here.*) A more *balanced* character can do a lot more *without* having to focus on just one side or the other. Granted, it's easier with some sets - FF throws out bubbles with two clicks on the team every four minutes, for instance, and hangs close enough for dispersion bubble to help the squishies who are probably a bit away from the fight - than with others, but your blasts (which for most sets are also debuffing) and / or controls are going to make a huge difference in team survivability as well. And sadly they're ignored by some percentage of support players in favor of "I need full leadership" or "Hasten+Medicine pool."

 

They also, though, can give that survivability you're looking to new IO sets to add. For instance, defenders and corrupters... just out of *habit,* I tend to load their ST ranged up with thunderstrikes because I like the set and it's reasonably cheap. What does it end up giving as bonuses? Recovery (helpful on busier support sets,) and ranged and energy defense. You're not going to softcap that, but it's enough to be pretty useful.

 

Greycat:

 

    There is wisdom in your words, but only to an extent, where play style can mostly overcome the obvious weaknesses and vulnerabilities that the support types have, but in truth it is only to a limited extent (I will give you that this extent is the lion's share of the load). I do disagree wholeheartedly to dismiss the value of a good IO based build as you indicated, it is unwise to dismiss the benefits of them, just because you don't use them, it does not mean they are without value, all it means you do not use them. I will be glad to meet you in Everlasting with any of your support alts, with any of mine, and lets see how we both perform, given you do not do builds, while I very carefully put my builds together by choosing IOs for functionality (thank heavens for MIDS), frankly I am looking to be taught something out of it, to which ultimately would help me become a better character designer and player.

 

    But to be fair, what is your definition of survivability? How many times in a TF you die, and you still feel your survivability is just fine? We could be differing here, and thus our point of reference on what is needed could easily converge. My definition, since I am supposed to be heroic, regardless of class is not be defeated at all in a TF in a +4/8 environment, lets use as a reference ITF. Between my play and IO sets, unless I am distracted or become complacent none of my classes or alts dies ever, and that includes controllers, defenders, and what not. Of course, outside of my tanks, you are not going to see me rush any cluster of mobs either, ha ha ha (but now we are getting to proper play style), but getting hit from behind by an ambush is no fear on my part by the way, I can survive it, while I move to get behind the tanks and let them draw enemy focus away from me.

 

     I do appreciate and concur that the niche class character play style is not quite the ultimate expression of best performance or even fun, and a blend of abilities, that is diversity is more productive and really fun. But in my view that's were the IO focused build shines, for they truly empower the player to stretch out and diversify and why the request to make defense for support types easier to acquire; lets be frank the IO sets are truly framed to help tankers the most right out of the gate, would it not be fair, to give that courtesy of focused IO sets to each class type as well?

 

     But the offer is there, come to Everlasting, and look me up, all my characters has Sue as part of their name, my real life name by the way, and lets get together and have some fun! Teach me some of your practices, let me see you in action and learn from observation, and maybe just maybe I could share some new wisdom with you as well in fair exchange, so you get something out of it too! Besides us both having fun! Looking forward to meet you and becoming friends!

 

Hugs

 

Sue

Edited June 22, 2021 by MsSmart

[...]

1 hour ago, MsSmart said:

My definition, since I am supposed to be heroic, regardless of class is not be defeated at all in a TF in a +4/8 environment, lets use as a reference ITF.

 

I disagree. The game is too easy. Everyone should have a legitimate chance of death. And should die sometimes. Especially when they screw up. Especially on +4.

 

As is... well let's just roll our faces on the keyboard some more, and pat ourselves on the back for it. 

 

2 hours ago, JayboH said:

More creep was planned, we were only going to get more powerful, by design, intentionally.

 

...granted new challenges were planned for that increase of course.

 

Said content never came. And won't. At least not for years. 

 

Don't get me wrong. HC staff are amazing.

 

But there are certain realities we all need to face. 

[JayboH]

1 hour ago, Vooded said:

 

Said content never came. And won't. At least not for years. 

 

Don't get me wrong. HC staff are amazing.

 

But there are certain realities we all need to face. 

Not really, everyone has been exposed to this level of power for years already at this point.  I mean, there isn't any new realities we need to face that we haven't already for years.

[Greycat]

2 hours ago, MsSmart said:

 But to be fair, what is your definition of survivability? How many times in a TF you die, and you still feel your survivability is just fine? We could be differing here, and thus our point of reference on what is needed could easily converge. My definition, since I am supposed to be heroic, regardless of class is not be defeated at all in a TF in a +4/8 environment, lets use as a reference ITF. Between my play and IO sets, unless I am distracted or become complacent none of my classes or alts dies ever, and that includes controllers, defenders, and what not. Of course, outside of my tanks, you are not going to see me rush any cluster of mobs either, ha ha ha (but now we are getting to proper play style), but getting hit from behind by an ambush is no fear on my part by the way, I can survive it, while I move to get behind the tanks and let them draw enemy focus away from me.

 

Everlasting's my primary server.

 

That said, focusing on the above - why do you assume I die on a TF? I can play the same TF ten times, with ten different teams, same settings, and have the experience range from "never dying" to "seven team wipes in a row" depending on who's playing. Builds are only a part of that, after all. And frankly I'd find the second experience more interesting, finding out why and trying to fix or work around it (barring some odd gameplay bug, like, say, all Council Vampyri suddenly spawn as AV-level Nosferatu or something, and every spawn has three of them at least.)

 

Honestly, using ITF is ... meh, as a measure. It's almost guaranteed, unless you specifically recruit not to, that you'll have a couple of Incarnates (if not a full or near full team of them,) and it pretty much trivializes the run. Which, sure, can be fun on occasion, but...

 

That whole "I never die" thing is also *part* of why I don't do builds. I find it *freaking boring* to basically have no risk. It's why I want the old Quantums back with their unresistable Nictus damage for Khelds, the old Cysts, etc. And yeah, I have characters that can do +4x8... but I don't because I tend to find *that* boring. "Minions down, let me punch these two bosses for a while... next group... " (on top of the just-plain-silliness of having a full city's worth of people wandering around in a lab or office or cave to beat up. I know it's a game, and that that gives the XP for a full team, but ... eh.)

 

I've been a standard part of the "not dying" thing. I was in a SG where we'd run at max level... and it was basically myself and the SG leader going nuke-nuke-judgement-judgement-nuke, while the others were soloing spawns as well. It's amusing, sure... for a short while. Neither of us were tanks, but... there just wasn't much there. Even trying ot keep up with the story on AEs, it still got rushed through because it was just that hard to challenge that group. (Which also got *me,* as one of the main people writing the AEs, to come up with things like time manipulation using groups... as in *everything* had it. Have them try to figure out what to do with their recharge - even IO-boosted recharge - floored.)

 

(Part of the other reason I don't do builds, at least copying other peoples' builds, is that I end up not playing the character... since it feels like I'm playing someone else's character. I have no connection to them. It's just numbers that produce other numbers then, and if I wanted that, I'd open up Excel. But that's neither here nor there.)

 

Got off track there a bit. Regardless, even without "builds" (and don't get me wrong - as I alluded to before, I do use IOs. I tend to throw things in organically, "that looks interesting" or "that looks helpful" as I level) death is still... fairly infrequent, especially as I get higher up in levels.

[...]

9 hours ago, JayboH said:

Not really, everyone has been exposed to this level of power for years already at this point.  I mean, there isn't any new realities we need to face that we haven't already for years.

 

That's fair.

[arcane]

The whole thing about not dying on a +4x8 ITF is completely within the abilities of a decent support character that’s paying attention. That said, I don’t enjoy playing that “hardcore” all the time and tend to play more casually, recklessly, and aggressively sometimes. Sometimes it’s easy enough to string together a wakie+BF+blue and speed away, and I’m not solely focused on the game. For instance I died once on a +4x8 kill most last night, but I was consciously showing off a bit and standing way out on my own in front of the brute when the giant nictus ambush came. But if I wanted to not die and was willing to focus enough to do so? There’s no support powerset combo for which that would be too hard on an ITF.

Edited June 23, 2021 by arcane

[Biff Pow]

I agree with the premise of the thread but my idea of "support friendly IO sets" would be debuff and mez sets that also enhance damage (though not as much as the regular offensive sets.) No more franken-slotting (unless you choose to.)