So, procs...

[Naraka]

9 hours ago, Llewellyn Blackwell said:

Like right? How can anyone post as this guy you responded to be taken seriously. Like since the dawning of the age of villains, the Brute was well understood to be an AT that did not need a lot of its enhancement slots devoted to raw dmg% boosts. The rage bar alone covers a huge chunk of their total damage buff cap.  Hell one of the things I love about Brute is you can easily just put a couple franken slot set IOs for acc/recharge,and end cost reduction on each attack for leveling, and never suffer blue bar issues even at the levels most others all do just because they do not need to devote their slots to raw dmg.

 

I actually agree here, when leveling my brutes, I usually focus on END redux, Acc, rech and get those ToHit/recovery IOs and use inspirations for +res/def/healing ontop of whatever my armor provides.  In the case of procs, they also get a nice boon having a low melee mod so slotting for damage isn't quite the premium except for certain high-damage attacks.  So make the attack cheap to use and proc it out...although proc rate sometimes affects if slotting for rech is even a goal at all...but then I also don't mind having a squishy character (again: inspirations) and tend to play in the mid levels anyway.

 

8 hours ago, Cherry said:

After reading this entire thread, some of you take this way too seriously and I'm glad I don't team with you.. you would make this game no fun for a player like me, and yes I know I'm the kind of player that would drive you nuts. There is a place for everyone in this game but some of you need to stop acting like elitist bullies and embrace the community as a whole and stop trying to change the way others want to play, or how they want to build. Leave this elitist crap for the PVP threads. 

 

And y'all do realize this dev team is all volunteers, right? Stop demanding things from them and show a bit more gratitude we even have this game back to play.

 

Partially agreed.  I personally feel people fixating on solving certain problems and not making precise calculations to determine if you are doing blah blah blah feels pretty elitist.  I'm not here trying to get the devs to do overtime, I'm just asking for civil exchange and input on suggestions.  The devs can decide to read and interpret that how they will.  I'm also not trying to change others way of playing...at least not anymore than others have pushed to change the way I now play.  It basically limits me from playing anything above lvl 45, half-and-half solo, limited build focus (so no soft-cap, limits on perma-stuff, budget limits on builds, etc) or sometimes only uniques and generic IOs.

 

I'm perfectly content with all the limitations I work with and still like discussing stuff (even if it's more a bias on anti-power creep).  I find it's moreso the elitists that want to keep their power so much so they feel obligated to stifle expression and free thought on a public message board.  I've even repeatedly said I don't want to remove proc bombs but I'll be put in the camp that is anti-proc bomb regardless.

 

Why is it so hard for you to set aside your bias and just stop and think "what if"?  

[Mezmera]

50 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

I know how to tweak it, my sus was more on the logic behind the point being made. A defender can catch up to a non-IO'd blaster in damage. I don't see how that makes a case for procs being overpowered considering an IO'd blaster would absolutely dust a defender in damage. @Mezmera Is the issue that Defenders should never do blaster-tier damage even if a blaster can outpace it in damage?

 

Blasters slot sets typically for bonuses.  Proc builds don't benefit them unless it's something like say the aoe hold from their secondary with a long recharge that they can make a mini-nuke to double dip into for moar damage.  Their main arsenal is already potent and due to the fast recharges on all of these powers slotting procs is typically done for a set you like for the bonuses.  

 

What blasters gain in IO's is survivability from defense bonuses and more recharge, dmg and accuracy bonuses to accentuate their already potent attacks.  Defenders already have the survivability in the bag so they can exploit proc'ing.   

 

Defenders exploiting procs aren't getting "left in the dust" any more in terms of damage if a blaster is IO'd.  It's the tankyness of a blaster you build for.  

 

But lets not get started on blasters since they've been made into demigods since the game was last on live.  

 

 

[BlackHearted]

23 hours ago, Arli said:

 

What @th0ughtGun said is not incorrect. They do make a valid point. Building soft capped on a character will not always diminish team performance; suggesting that it does is a fallacy, as it is not true in every circumstance. Some teams value team members that have soft capped defenses if going for specific objectives that might warrant such a build. Some speed teams will value this in specific instances (think ITFs when hunting crystals and you have poor RNG with the map, and it splits - et cetera). Just because a player may build a soft capped build for their character doesn't mean their team buffs will be missing or less effective. I've seen players straight up skip team buffs (and they didn't have soft capped builds). Relying on teammates to bring necessary buffs is only reliable when you have teams built specifically for that. Otherwise, it's a game of chance if you ever do team compositions through looking for group - unless you specify specific builds and/or ATs.

The teams that have placed top 3 in the speed competitions we've held on HC did not run soft capped builds. There's certainly nothing stopping people from join'n teams with a soft capped build and doing just fine in a speed run setting (pve in CoH is overtly simple and doesn't actually require an optimal build to get decent performance), but it is most certainly an objectively bad decision to build for self soft capping on a toon intended for speedies as that would require skipping some amount of either dmg proc rech bonuses or HP bonuses which is the focus for builds intended to be used in that setting done by those who post the best time results. (and movement cap*)
 

[Galaxy Brain]

1 minute ago, BlackHearted said:

The teams that have placed top 3 in the speed competitions we've held on HC did not run soft capped builds. There's certainly nothing stopping people from join'n teams with a soft capped build and doing just fine in a speed run setting (pve in CoH is overtly simple and doesn't actually require an optimal build to get decent performance), but it is most certainly an objectively bad decision to build for self soft capping on a toon intended for speedies as that would require skipping some amount of either dmg proc rech bonuses or HP bonuses which is the focus for builds intended to be used in that setting done by those who post the best time results. (and movement cap*)
 

 

When talking speedies, do people build for specific encounters / tasks, or are there more generalized teams that speed everything with the same exact character makeup?

Edited July 7, 2021 by Galaxy Brain

[Naraka]

5 hours ago, ScarySai said:

 

Nerf everything powerful in the superhero game, then we can truly balance the game that thrives on powerful characters doing OP things.

[Mezmera]

16 minutes ago, BlackHearted said:

The teams that have placed top 3 in the speed competitions we've held on HC did not run soft capped builds. There's certainly nothing stopping people from join'n teams with a soft capped build and doing just fine in a speed run setting (pve in CoH is overtly simple and doesn't actually require an optimal build to get decent performance), but it is most certainly an objectively bad decision to build for self soft capping on a toon intended for speedies as that would require skipping some amount of either dmg proc rech bonuses or HP bonuses which is the focus for builds intended to be used in that setting done by those who post the best time results. (and movement cap*)
 

 

People familiar with each other communicating with one another to coordinate shoring up another's weakness all in an effort to create a super team that we then use to base our judgment's by seems strange to me.   

 

Before IO's I'd get into a power super group team playing their way through missions while half were radiation and the others were something else and all with the leadership pool.  They'd decimate the +5 baddies that would sometimes spawn, all with SO's.  

 

So you're point is coordination is very effective...

 

And then we're supposed to base our build decisions based on these unicorn like instances?   

Edited July 7, 2021 by Mezmera

[BlackHearted]

28 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

When talking speedies, do people build for specific encounters / tasks, or are there more generalized teams that speed everything with the same exact character makeup?

Depends on the constraints of the competitions.   If going for the world record for a specific TF for example you would build the optimized team for that specific TF.. as an example the record holding team before the record reset for ITF ran 7 fire/fire blasters and 1 kin.... Due to the large number of "trash mobs" that need to be cleared out the -res and buffs from a fire/cold corr would be less valuable than the added dmg of an additional blaster..... 

The team that had the record for MLTF on the other hand ran 6 fire/fire's and a fire/sonic & fire/cold corrs... that TF has more big AV targets and less mobs to clear out in between objectives.

For general casual speedy runs we're typically much more lax about it and folks just bring w/e and you'll usually end up with someone going "Oh we've already got a X let me swap to the thing we don't have"  if there's a glaring balance issue.......  For just the daily runs to grind merits most folks aren't that picky about an ITF taking 11 mins instead of something that's more of an actual speed time for that TF (<8 mins).

*addendum.. as a futher example for the speed competitions that were held, we had constraints on teams... no swapping toons in between TFs, no more than 2 of the same AT etc..... So for those we would run 2 blaster 2 corrs a dom and scrapper/ 2 blasters 2 corrs  a defender a dom as the ideal set ups depending on if LGTF or some other TF with a mechanic like the mini hami was in it etc.

Edited July 7, 2021 by BlackHearted

[BlackHearted]

2 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

So you're point is coordination is very effective...

 

And then we're supposed to base our build decisions based on these unicorn like instances?   

 

My point is that people should be realistic about math. Being over the soft cap is superfluous for a squishy AT, and that's what's gonna end up happening in a team setting if there's any buffs at all being applied to an already softcap'd build. 

I don't personally have any strong feelings one way or the other about other people choosing to make sub optimal builds.  

[Super Atom]

@Mezmera  I don't agree with a single thing you typed, but in the interest in keeping this on topic and not turning into a numbers war about Blasters vs defenders, we'll just nod and move on.

 

I think wide-changes for procs isn't needed and power creep from IO's on a whole is a larger concern, individual procs could be adjusted though, like Gaussian's.

[Marbing]

38 minutes ago, BlackHearted said:

 

My point is that people should be realistic about math. Being over the soft cap is superfluous for a squishy AT, and that's what's gonna end up happening in a team setting if there's any buffs at all being applied to an already softcap'd build. 

I don't personally have any strong feelings one way or the other about other people choosing to make sub optimal builds.  

Soft capped builds aren’t sub optimal, they just aren’t speed run builds. There is a huge difference and optimal depends on the situation. PUG don’t work like that and that is a far larger subset of the population than world record speed runners. I don’t see a reason to discuss this any further. The horse has been beat to death.

Edited July 7, 2021 by th0ughtGun

[BlackHearted]

4 minutes ago, th0ughtGun said:

Soft capped builds aren’t sub optimal, they just aren’t speed run builds. There is a huge difference and optimal depends on the situation. PUG don’t work like that and that is a far larger subset of the population than world record speed runners. I don’t see a reason to discuss this any further. The horse has been beat to death.

Again, that's objectively not correct. Optimal team builds won't be self soft capped.  If you wanna say they work just fine sure... and it is quite clearly a popular way to build... but they're not optimal, and there fore ARE sub optimal.. something being a popular idea does not make it the correct thing to do mathematically.

[ScarySai]

1 hour ago, BlackHearted said:

if you dont see the obvious fact staring you in the face that you're skipping potential dmg/resistance anytime you go for softcap on a build like a defender or corr then i don't know what to tell you fam... that makes no logical sense to do on a build that's intended for teaming... aim'n for 25ish% def so you'll be over the cap with a team full of maneuvers (or one cold or FF or like 2 darks etc etc) on the other hand actually makes logical sense to do for a team build.

 

[Marbing]

16 minutes ago, BlackHearted said:

Again, that's objectively not correct. Optimal team builds won't be self soft capped.  If you wanna say they work just fine sure... and it is quite clearly a popular way to build... but they're not optimal, and there fore ARE sub optimal.. something being a popular idea does not make it the correct thing to do mathematically.

False.

 

That’s just not how this game works. There are different builds for different things and no one build is the “correct” build. 
 

Just look at the builds for those world record runs. See a pattern? All fire? Hmm looks like fire is great for speed runs doesn’t it? So only Fire is optimal then? You keep bringing up speed runs but all you have show is fire builds. So I am left to assume you believe Fire is the only thing a blaster should ever play because everything else is suboptimal. 
 

Again, you are using a very small subset of the entire gameplay to make a point and you aren’t making the point you think you are making. Try a different approach.
 

Look, I get what you are trying to say, but you don’t seem to be listening to what I and others are saying.

 

Edited July 7, 2021 by th0ughtGun

[BlackHearted]

1 minute ago, th0ughtGun said:

False.

 

That’s just not how this game works. There are different builds for different things and no one build is the “correct” build. 
 

Just look at the builds for those world record runs. See a pattern? All fire? Hmm looks like fire is great for speed runs doesn’t it? So only Fire is optimal then? You keep bringing up speed runs but all you have show is fire builds. So I am left to assume you believe Fire is the only thing a blaster should ever play because everything else is suboptimal. 
 

Again, you are using a very small subset of the entire gameplay to make a point and you aren’t making the point you think you are making. Try a different approach.
 

 

 

I feel like you don't know what the word optimal means asking me something obvious like weather or not i think fire fire is the optimal blaster.. or are just being a troll at this point....two things can't be optimal.. so if one is.. the other isn't. 

Self soft capped builds aren't optimal for game play in general unless you plan to play under a lot of self imposed constraints like not using insperations or external buffs.. and even then it's not always the optimal thing to do.  

I was talking about speed runs b/c it is a clear example of being able to define what is and isn't optimal in a setting....the goal is obvious and you can compare times to compare results...... and ppl wanted to challenge me on that example even though the evidence is glaringly obvious.. so i pointed out how backwards it is to claim a def cap build is optimal in a speed run setting... as is supported by the evidence of the builds used to achive the best times.

And please refrain from making assertions about my thoughts on other players or what they should do with their time/efforts,  As i stated i don't care what other ppl do with their builds or what they play,

[Marbing]

32 minutes ago, BlackHearted said:

I feel like you don't know what the word optimal means asking me something obvious like weather or not i think fire fire is the optimal blaster.. or are just being a troll at this point....two things can't be optimal.. so if one is.. the other isn't. 

Self soft capped builds aren't optimal for game play in general unless you plan to play under a lot of self imposed constraints like not using insperations or external buffs.. and even then it's not always the optimal thing to do.  

I was talking about speed runs b/c it is a clear example of being able to define what is and isn't optimal in a setting....the goal is obvious and you can compare times to compare results...... and ppl wanted to challenge me on that example even though the evidence is glaringly obvious.. so i pointed out how backwards it is to claim a def cap build is optimal in a speed run setting... as is supported by the evidence of the builds used to achive the best times.

And please refrain from making assertions about my thoughts on other players or what they should do with their time/efforts,  As i stated i don't care what other ppl do with their builds or what they play,

So because you have a different definition of optimal than me somehow that makes me a troll? Seriously? 
 

Okay, so you have your little fire fire blaster there set up for your optimal team build and you are sitting in PI and on lfg chat you say “blaster lfg” do you also add “lfg that has some +def and +res so I can reach my caps because I built this toon to be optimal for team play and thus rely on others!” ? No of course not, no one does that. People build for soft cap so they don’t HAVE to rely on others to get there, because in general play that isn’t alway reliable. They also do it because they want to be able to switch over to solo anytime without having to switch into a completely different build every time. People do it because it is the optimal way to make your toon viable in as many situations as possible and not just specific situations. It is optimal for the casual player. No it isn’t the optimal build for world record speed runs or for farming or for PvP or any other specific role, but people still build for it in mass for the reasons listed above. Stop trying to put everything into specific corners of gameplay. That’s not how this game works. If you want to build for speed runs, that’s great for you. If you want to build a fire farmer, go for it! If you want to PvP, that’s fantastic! But most people aren’t building for that, so stop telling people their builds aren’t optimal for YOUR style of play, because they may not be playing the game the same way that YOU do. 
 

Wish you the best, though, bro! Have a good night!

Edited July 7, 2021 by th0ughtGun

[Galaxy Brain]

40 minutes ago, BlackHearted said:

Self soft capped builds aren't optimal for game play in general unless you plan to play under a lot of self imposed constraints like not using insperations or external buffs.. and even then it's not always the optimal thing to do.  

 

I think there is a key disconnect here. 

 

Yes, in a group where you all know each other and what you all bring to the table to bounce off one another you can definitely squeeze more performance out by not "wasting" stats that are covered by allies. However, if you are NOT in that scenario then you are at the mercy of the odds of folks showing up that can shore up your holes, in which case the small hit to max performance potential will be most likely sacrificed for more self sufficiency, making that character optimal for the scenario of random teaming as more often they may be more successful than the hyper-specialized one.

Edited July 7, 2021 by Galaxy Brain

[BlackHearted]

3 minutes ago, th0ughtGun said:

So because you have a different definition of optimal than me somehow that makes me a troll? Seriously? 
 

Okay, so you have your little fire fire blaster there set up for your optimal team build and you are sitting in PI and on lfg chat you say “blaster lfg” do you also add “lfg that has some +def and +res so I can reach my caps because I built this toon to be optimal for team play and thus rely on others!” ? No of course not, no one does that. People build for soft cap so they don’t HAVE to rely on others to get there, because in general play that isn’t alway reliable. They also do it because they want to be able to switch over to solo anytime without having to switch into an completely different build every time. People do it because it is the optimal way to make your toon viable in as many situations as possible and not just specific situations. It is optimal for the casual player. No it isn’t the optimal build for world record speed runs or for farming or for PvP or any other specific role, but people still build for it in mass for the reasons listed above. Stop trying to put everything into specific corners of gameplay. That’s not how this game works. If you want to build for speed runs, that’s great for you. If you want to build a fire farmer, go for it! If you want to PvP, that’s fantastic! But most people aren’t building for that, so stop telling people their builds aren’t optimal for YOUR style of play, because they may not be playing the game the same way that YOU do. 
 

Wish you the best, though, bro! Have a good night!

you're using a different definition than the dictionary uses for optimal if you think there's multiple optimal ways to do something.

I'm sorry if your upset to learn your def cap builds aren't optimal but that's math, not an opinion.

And again please stop making assertions about me or speaking to me in gendered terms... i didn't tell anyone what they should do, only pointed out the facts about the math, there's no need to be rude.

[BlackHearted]

5 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

I think there is a key disconnect here. 

 

Yes, in a group where you all know each other and what you all bring to the table to bounce off one another you can definitely squeeze more performance out by not "wasting" stats that are covered by allies. However, if you are NOT in that scenario then you are at the mercy of the odds of folks showing up that can shore up your holes, in which case the small hit to max performance potential will be most likely sacrificed for more self sufficiency, making that character optimal for the scenario of random teaming as more often they may be more successful than the hyper-specialized one.

Even being generous about the situation self def cap isn't optimal unless the player is working under several self imposed constraints.  external buffs exist.. if someone chooses to not use them that's obviously within their rights to do, but it doesn't make their build more better and there for isn't optimal going by the numbers.

Edited July 7, 2021 by BlackHearted

[Marbing]

46 minutes ago, BlackHearted said:

you're using a different definition than the dictionary uses for optimal if you think there's multiple optimal ways to do something.

I'm sorry if your upset to learn your def cap builds aren't optimal but that's math, not an opinion.

And again please stop making assertions about me or speaking to me in gendered terms... i didn't tell anyone what they should do, only pointed out the facts about the math, there's no need to be rude.

Lol not upset, 😂, wow…

I couldn’t care less, just pointing out the holes in your logic.
 

Also, there aren’t multiple optimal ways to do one specific thing, I never said that. There are different specific things all having a specific optimization. Let’s not get it twisted, okay? I can see you are clearly upset. I am sorry about that. I will leave this be now. 

Edited July 7, 2021 by th0ughtGun

[Super Atom]

1 minute ago, BlackHearted said:

Even being generous about the situation self def cap isn't optimal unless the player is working under several self imposed constraints.  external buffs exist.. if someone chooses to not use them that's obviously within their rights to do, but it doesn't make their build more optimal.

 

Using outside buffs and inspirations is not the sign of an optimal build. soloing +4/x8 incarnate enemies without insps or buffs is optimal. If your build needs help, it's a bad build.

Edited July 7, 2021 by Super Atom

[ScarySai]

Builds that perform extremely well solo, generally, are going to perform well in teams by default.

 

You can be pedantic and try to point out the fractional differences between some build that's made to be carried by cold doms and kins and a build that's got slightly less procs and recharge, but the reality of the situation is that it really doesn't matter in most cases, especially when pugging.

[Galaxy Brain]

@BlackHearted, as what @Super Atom and @ScarySai said, it really depends on what you are aiming to be optimal at.

 

A Marlin may be the optimal build for a fish in the ocean, but it won't fare well in the Amazon River despite it being water and even connected to the ocean. A bull shark may not be as amazing as the Marlin all things considered, but it can excel in both the Ocean and Amazon river. Which fish is more optimal here? 

[BlackHearted]

Really amusing to see ppl claim doing less dmg than is possible is optimal. Y'all should check out dictionary.com sometime. 

If ppl don't see the error in the logic then i suppose there's no point in me discussing it further.

[Monos King]

17 minutes ago, BlackHearted said:

Really amusing to see ppl claim doing less dmg than is possible is optimal. Y'all should check out dictionary.com sometime. 

You should probably sit back, take a drink, and think about why multiple people are saying what they are rather than flaunt your ability to google. You're fixed to your opinion, and it's making you narrow minded. Even I, who is decidedly in the camp procs are ok (to go back to the main topic), am seeing you make no good point for our side.

 

It's been said before, I'll say it again for posterity's sake. There can't be one optimal build. Because when you are playing this game, the goal is not to do one thing, 24/7. You might need to escape, you might need to survive strays, you might need to maintain your recharge or endurance. So when you build, you will have a specific goal in mind. And that objective is what decides what is OPTIMAL.

 

The closest thing to that, however, would be becoming a well rounded ace which has achieved total self-sufficiency

This is because the definition of said sufficiency is "needing no outside help in satisfying one's basic needs", which in this case would be being able to drop your character into various environments and be able to succeed in all of them. Alone. Because degrees of success are what determine what is optimal, having the largest range of success over a panel of activities would by definition make it MORE optimal. Which is the exact opposite of a team play build. 

 

Dodging their remarks won't help this conversation progress to where it should be. Let's get this back on track, namely whether or not proc building offers some sort of displacing advantage, and quantifying it.

[Galaxy Brain]

One thing we should define is:

 

What is a proc build?

 

 

Im not sure there are many people who are literally slamming as many procs as possible in every power possible, but I can see people pushing 2-3 per power. However, I bet 1 per damage power and a dedicated proc-monster wouldn't be out of the question.