So, procs...

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 minutes ago, Parabola said:

For a start it wouldn't deal with those single procs like gaussian's that some regard as problematic

 

Good point. But for any like those, we just go with the straight nerf route. Cut the PPM and buff in half at the base. Proc-ED will layer on top of it.

[Marbing]

Add procs with secondary effect buffs, so that Corruptors/Controllers/Masterminds and make up some ground buff/debuff wise vs Defenders. Add more chance to hold/disorient/sleep procs in the game and increase their effectiveness and even make some of them AOE so that non-control toons can make up some ground vs control toons. It seems the dmg procs help low dps toons make up ground so why not do it in reverse also? This way any AT can encroach on any other AT's performance with a sufficient build, instead of just a few having that ability. In the name of build diversity!

 

As far as the incarnate level shift stuff: Make more incarnate content where that would be a requirement! I know it is a huge ask, but add more end game high level content and zones (like Dark Astoria) where all the mobs are also level shifted. Add more complex missions that require real teamwork to finish (not just smash and burn content that can be run through in minutes with a team of fire/fire blasters... 😒). Ideally you would add content to the game that would require a full team of highly coordinated incarnate builds to finish, give some sort of awesome accolade at the end for finishing some set of them. Look at how Hami raids work (outside of a Hamikaze!), there are certain Mitos that can only be killed by melee, some by range, some under the affects of cc. Make more content like that! That requires a well balanced team, because you will NEED control, you will NEED range, you will NEED melee, etc etc to finish it. You can get even more creative with it than that, that is just an example. Heck even content that limits you to a team of 4 or you cant do the mission! Just brainstorming here...

 

 

Edited July 8, 2021 by th0ughtGun

[Myrmidon]

29 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

 

That would certainly make some Hamidon raids impossible to carry out, considering that Hamidon sometimes spawns in less than one minute of monster hunting.

Ok, inspiration base storage only works on the Hamidon/Eden inspirations.

[Bill Z Bubba]

10 minutes ago, th0ughtGun said:

Make more incarnate content where that would be a requirement! I know it is a huge ask, but add more end game high level content and zones (like Dark Astoria) where all the mobs are also level shifted.

 

But the mobs aren't level shifted in DA. You are. Fighting +4s in DA while you're level shifted +3 means you're fighting +1s where in PI fighting +4s you're fighting +3s and I would have to argue that Carnies/Arachnos at +3 are more difficult than DA Banished Pantheon/Tsoo at +1 even with their baked in +13%ToHitBuff. Especially given that I'm still getting +4 rewards either way.

[Bill Z Bubba]

As for Hami raids, forgive my senility if I'm wrong, but weren't those happening before in game email and the market? How were folks getting EoEs then?

[Marbing]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

But the mobs aren't level shifted in DA. You are. Fighting +4s in DA while you're level shifted +3 means you're fighting +1s where in PI fighting +4s you're fighting +3s and I would have to argue that Carnies/Arachnos at +3 are more difficult than DA Banished Pantheon/Tsoo at +1 even with their baked in +13%ToHitBuff. Especially given that I'm still getting +4 rewards either way.

That's what I mean though, add in more +1, +2, etc level shifted mobs in some zones, or let us raise the difficulty past +4.

[Bionic_Flea]

Original Hammy didn't rely on EoEs and the zone allowed 200ish players.

 

[Apparition]

3 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Original Hammy didn't rely on EoEs and the zone allowed 200ish players.

 

 

 

Yep.  EoEs/the Hamidon raid revamp and the auction house were added in the same issue, Issue 9.

[Olerus]

Having lived through I6 when it came out, I have a hard time imagining anyone seriously considering that round 2 could happen without a mass playerbase departure.  It would be exactly the type of thing I mentioned before that would make it hard for me to keep playing on the server: a wrecking ball to virtually every build that changes the rules they work on.  One could imagine what would happen if set bonuses were capped at 4 instead of 5 in the next patch, for instance.  I highly doubt I'd want to invest the mental energy to rework all of my characters.

 

And what, really would this improve?  Was the I6 to I8 metagame so fun that we want to return to its powerscales?  It was regarded as far from a glory age in the game at the time, and I honestly believe that inter-archetype balance right now is better than it was at any point on live.  Every class can do good damage, every class can be extremely survivable, every class has a decent leveling experience.  Right now, the most obvious balance issues are the underperforming powersets, not overperforming combinations or ATs.  

 

 Some people obviously enjoy a more 'competitive' game with slower clears and less certain outcomes even at the peak of performance, but I think the peaks and valleys of the game's playerbase has shown that this isn't the popular opinion.  Extra difficulty from general nerfs needs to be done with extreme delicate hands and for good reasons:

• to delivery more satisfying and engaging endgame content
• to promote inter-archetype and powerset balance
• to keep rewards and progression at intended rates

I don't think proc ED and inspiration limiting does the right things, for the right reasons.  I do generally believe that Incarnate systems need a balance pass, both for what they do to trials and to their impact on 45+ content, because they do increase progression rates considerably and because iTrials may be better if ATs each have a specific purpose, which is difficult with how much a character can gain outside of their AT's specialty.

 

That said, I will always support additional levers on the difficulty system, particularly those that go beyond numbers and level.  Which is to say, I support the no-inspirations limit people can choose to go under in the taskforce system, and would support a system that could put limitations on builds.  The challenge is that players that want harder difficulties often aren't satisfied with being able to put higher difficulties on themselves, especially for no added reward: they want to face the same difficulties in generic team content.  And if you make optional subsystems optimal for rewards/time, you may screw up the progression rate the system is balanced at (see: +4/x8 missions).  But I do think build limits would be a thing for the Flashback system and could potentially give added rewards (chance to drop new enhancements for instance) and/or badges.

 

I also wonder how people would react to enemies that made procs less generally viable.  If neo-Warriors for instance were retrofitting to have an unlucky aura that reduced PPM rates to 0.5 PPM, then 6 slotting procs suddenly has a limit to where it increases damage.  I don't think the CoH system would make it easy to make enemies immune to procs or reflect them, but it might be possible to mess with PPMs dynamically.

Edited July 8, 2021 by Olerus

[Marbing]

Since it is a bit off topic and a different discussion, I opened a thread to discuss adding more difficult content to the game:
 

 

 

Just FYI in case anyone wanted to take that discussion there, so that this thread can remain about proc balance. 😄 No offence to anyone intended. 

[America's Angel]

  

30 minutes ago, Olerus said:

I also wonder how people would react to enemies that made procs less generally viable.  If neo-Warriors for instance were retrofitting to have an unlucky aura that reduced PPM rates to 0.5 PPM, then 6 slotting procs suddenly has a limit to where it increases damage.  I don't think the CoH system would make it easy to make enemies immune to procs or reflect them, but it might be possible to mess with PPMs dynamically.

 

Great post. Just wanted to highlight this bit. I'd LOVE more extremely hard TFs with dynamics like this.

 

Crimson Prototype is one of the best boss fights in the game. His stackable -HP and lowest-possible-chance-to-hit of ~30% means he just straight up cheats versus a lot of player builds.

 

I'd love future level 50 AVs to...

• Be immune to proc damage
• Have a much higher base accuracy, and accuracy buffs to cut through softcapped builds
• Have Elusivity
• Have a dynamic where if their res goes down, their regen goes up. (And vice versa!) And if the two stats are debuffed equally...they don't move. (To counter all of the -res and -regen debuffs in the game.)
• Have an AoE heat exhaustion attack.
• Have AoE -accuracy powers
• Have every ST attack of theirs do the same -end as the malta sapper power, or the same -heal on the enemy as Absorb Pain does to the caster
• Ignore taunt
• Always goes for the target with the lowest threat value
• Etc

 

These are the sort of things that would make the game harder. 

Edited July 8, 2021 by America's Angel

[Naraka]

Another easy solution that I don't recall hearing: what if procs just had recharge enhancing properties, maybe even along with other stats.  Example: Blasters Wrath has Rech/fire damage proc; just give every proc get an attuned Rech/damage proc.  If all you're trying to do is balance the proc chance in proc bombs, that could be another option that also comes with a benefit.

 

And I'm for looking at some of the weaker procs to just make them uniques.  They don't have a proc chance, they just go off 100% in the attack you slot it in but you can only slot it once.  Beef up the effect a bit too.  Putting these in fast rech powers would be better.

[Galaxy Brain]

52 minutes ago, th0ughtGun said:

That's what I mean though, add in more +1, +2, etc level shifted mobs in some zones, or let us raise the difficulty past +4.

 

The only issue here is that the level shifts are optional on the player's end, and fighting beyond +4 for those who we cannot guarantee are shifted is simply a slog and a half.

[Marbing]

23 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

The only issue here is that the level shifts are optional on the player's end, and fighting beyond +4 for those who we cannot guarantee are shifted is simply a slog and a half.

The option to raise our own difficulty beyond +4 would also be optional though. And mobs that are level shifted would only be in incarnate zones, where you wouldn’t want to go unless you were level shifted. 

Edited July 8, 2021 by th0ughtGun

[Apparition]

22 minutes ago, th0ughtGun said:

The option to raise our own difficulty beyond +4 would also be optional though. And mobs that are level shifted would only be in incarnate zones, where you wouldn’t want to go unless you were level shifted. 

 

The thing is though, mobs beyond +4 aren't more difficult.  They're just much more time consuming.  That's the only difference.  As I've posted here -

 

 

 

 

At level 43 (without any Incarnate abilities), all +5 to +7 mobs were were a slog.  Not difficult, just time consuming.  The level 34+ respec trial took about three times as long as normal, but was it any more challenging?  Not at all.

[aethereal]

2 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

The thing is though, mobs beyond +4 aren't more difficult.  They're just much more time consuming.  That's the only difference.

 

I mean, they do more damage and hit you more often.

 

Like, are you so ferociously damage-mitigated that that's not a big deal?  Sure, I can believe you are so ferociously damage-mitigated that that's not a big deal.  But if "doing more damage and hitting you more often" do not constitute more difficulty, I'm not real sure what does.

[Apparition]

4 minutes ago, aethereal said:

 

I mean, they do more damage and hit you more often.

 

Like, are you so ferociously damage-mitigated that that's not a big deal?  Sure, I can believe you are so ferociously damage-mitigated that that's not a big deal.  But if "doing more damage and hitting you more often" do not constitute more difficulty, I'm not real sure what does.

 

 

They hit more often and do more damage, but not enough to be really noticeable if people keep buffs up like they should be doing anyway.  Greater difficulty has to come in through either nerfs, new mechanics like America's Angel pointed out, or both.  Greater level differences aren't going to do it.

[arcane]

11 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

The thing is though, mobs beyond +4 aren't more difficult.  They're just much more time consuming.  That's the only difference.  As I've posted here -

 

 

 

 

At level 43 (without any Incarnate abilities), all +5 to +7 mobs were were a slog.  Not difficult, just time consuming.  The level 34+ respec trial took about three times as long as normal, but was it any more challenging?  Not at all.

I tried to trigger your bug by starting a level 49 mission at +4x9999 but it didn’t work 😕 

[Marbing]

2 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

 

They hit more often and do more damage, but not enough to be really noticeable if people keep buffs up like they should be doing anyway.  Greater difficulty has to come in through either nerfs, new mechanics like America's Angel pointed out, or both.  Greater level differences aren't going to do it.

Hmm... I see your point, to an extent. Just creating larger HP bags. I will say it wasn't my only suggestion though, but part of a larger suggestion. I see nothing wrong with people being able to increase their personal difficulty past +4. But you are right, it wouldn't be the end all be all solution. It would have to be part of a larger solution. 

Edited July 8, 2021 by th0ughtGun

[aethereal]

8 minutes ago, Apparition said:

They hit more often and do more damage, but not enough to be really noticeable if people keep buffs up like they should be doing anyway.  Greater difficulty has to come in through either nerfs, new mechanics like America's Angel pointed out, or both.  Greater level differences aren't going to do it.

 

The purple patch definitely scales down your offense much more strongly than it scales up enemy offense.

 

Comparing a +4 to a +7 enemy, you do about 1/6th as much damage to the +7 enemy.  They do about +20% more damage to you.

 

So, I mean, I don't exactly agree, I think it's certainly possible to challenge people through level differences, but I agree with you that with the current purple patch, it definitely becomes a case of "you can't hurt them," long before they are pushing your defenses hard.

Edited July 8, 2021 by aethereal
typo

[aethereal]

7 minutes ago, th0ughtGun said:

Hmm... I see your point, to an extent. Just creating larger HP bags. I will say it wasn't my only suggestion though, but part of a larger suggestion. I see nothing wrong with people being able to increase their personal difficulty past +4. But you are right, it wouldn't be the end all be all solution. It would have to be part of a larger solution. 

 

I mean, I think also that a lot of content is SO easy.  Like, if you can solo +4/x8 (and a lot of people can), then 8 people on the team who all can solo +4/x8...  that's a lot.  It's gonna take an enormous amount of increased difficulty to catch back up to "about ten times the power necessary to overcome this mob."

 

Against the right opponents, bigger bags of HP can be a potent difference -- there are enemy types that, with some characters, I definitely rely on "kill enough of them to lower incoming damage before my defenses get overwhelmed" (much of my high-level play has been with bio armor, where your defenses are clicky-based.  It's presumably less important to apply the death debuff with mitigation that's more steady-state).

Edited July 8, 2021 by aethereal

[Apparition]

6 minutes ago, arcane said:

I tried to trigger your bug by starting a level 49 mission at +4x9999 but it didn’t work 😕 

 

 

Hrm, that's strange.  It definitely worked for me, and it has been working for @Yomo Kimyata as well.

[Marbing]

3 minutes ago, aethereal said:

 

I mean, I think also that a lot of content is SO easy.  Like, if you can solo +4/x8 (and a lot of people can), then 8 people on the team who all can solo +4/x8...  that's a lot.  It's gonna take an enormous amount of increased difficulty to catch back up to "about ten times the power necessary to overcome this mob."

Agreed. That is where other balance measures must be taken, to even things out. But there seems to be a lot of resistance to that... So was trying to approach this from a different angle.

 

But you are right, a simple level increase to the mobs (optional or not) wont solve all of our problems. I do, however, still think the option should be there as an addition to other changes that would need to be made around that. 

Edited July 8, 2021 by th0ughtGun

[Galaxy Brain]

2 hours ago, Olerus said:

And what, really would this improve? 

 

This is what we should really, REALLY, be thinking about.

 

Yes, you could take a belt sander to everything to make it perfectly "balanced", but at the cost of players being flung out in the sawdust as you strip away what is fun about the system that is being balanced. Perfect balance rarely if ever equals actual fun. 

 

The issue though in my opinion is that procs / slotting options cause inequity. Think about how many sets people go into thinking "sweet, I can slot the FF proc here, XYZ things there, etc". Not all sets get these opportunities nor the best version of said opportunities. Sure, a set with a KB power may be able to use FF or SA for great effect, but a set with a few AoE KB powers gets WAY better results. Sets without -Def powers end up with a slew of powerful options that are not available, sets without +Def have less pool power flexibility, so on and so forth. 

 

Another bit that AA did touch on is that most of the game "checks" the same skills: can they hit you (likely not) and do their hits matter (usually not)? Players are able to circumvent a lot of this by having near always 95% hit chances vs enemies while being nigh untouchable themselves, which devolves into "damage wins" as that is the only relevant stat left when you can easily smack everything. With that in mind, a lot of bonuses that could be introduced need to compete against more raw damage + the attributes that let players successfully apply it.

 

As long as encounters can be simply won by more firepower, more firepower will be the best solution as defenses / etc are accounted for. In terms of proc diversity, cool procs like unique mez effects / turning powers into a Parry / etc are sort of invalidated by how encounters scale. Combine that along with how certain powersets / power types / or even whole AT's get wildly different IO experiences, and we get threads like this.

 

Incarnates do not help matters, though they are a different can of worms. Neither exist in a vacuum as an IO'd build + Incarnates should be demonstrably be better than the sum of it's parts.

 

 

Edited July 8, 2021 by Galaxy Brain

[Glacier Peak]

21 minutes ago, arcane said:

I tried to trigger your bug by starting a level 49 mission at +4x9999 but it didn’t work 😕 

Did you try using the command [/setdifficultyteamsize x], with x representing the '9999' number? I was able to do this for the first respec trial on a solo run and holy yikes, I was working my butt off with the spawns. I had to use everything, pets, temps, nukes, the whole bag.