So, procs...

[EmperorSteele]

All I know is I slot up Dominate with procs and now I'm one-shotting Minions.

 

Fun, but probably O.P.

[Olerus]

16 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Just out of curiosity, what do you usually build for? I've tried expanding out to some oddball builds like as many +Heal procs as possible on a character and the like before 🙂

 

All of the builds are unique.  I have an Ill/Cold with a duo-only build that plans to softcap with the aid of an ally playing the same build.  My Stone/Dark tanker is built to be ridiculously, unnecessarily tanky, eschewing all Gift of the Ancients and +movespeed IO buffs to fully max resistances and get incarnate softcap defenses along with plugging the PSI hole; it only uses Combat Teleport and Teleport to move.  My Water/Time Blaster is all about recharge, trying to hit and stay and the recharge cap by using Agile/Ageless/Haste/Time Lord and Force Feedback on Geyser and Water Burst.  My Electrical/Radiation Sentinel is all about maximizing Endurance Drain and turning Ground Zero into a dramatically more effective AoE blast.

 

Most of the time, these builds do try to reach some type of softcap defense and pair it with a large source of recharge.  The puzzle comes from fitting everything else the build wants to do in without:

 

• running into endurance issues (common with an entirely procced out attack chain)
• missing more than 5% of the time versus normal +3 mobs (48% accuracy base)
• lacking a travel power when exemplaring to Posi 1 levels
• neglecting resistances or vital supplementary powers
• lacking 4-12 knockback protection
• missing any major build goal

The esoteric build goals I've had include:

• max +range on a Psi/Em blaster
• maximizing nonsuppressed +movespeed on a Claws/SR scrapper
• being able to break through an AVs purple triangles with a MM
• hitting incarnate soft cap defenses (59%)

[Olerus]

5 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

I don't envy the person who has to think about how to fix this.

 

Hopefully we can all agree though that this should not be a thing coming from a Controller APP power:

 

 

 

That's a DPA of 353 before adding extra damage from Fulcrum Shift or the like. 

 

The thing is, to actually achieve 353 DPA from that power you need:

 

* 84.1% in accuracy buffs (after Kismet's +6% Tohit boost)

* some way of accounting for 12.34 endurance/second being added into an attack chain

 

These aren't minor considerations, and honestly I enjoy the fact that a build can get to the point that it can get a powerful attack but needs to make substantial sacrifices or planning decisions to fully optimize it.  And barring the help of a coordinated team, it is unlikely that a build could do that on all of its powers and get away with it. 

 

As far as that power goes, it is intended to be a high damage attack. It isn't listed as an Extreme damage 'massive attack' for nothing.  The point of Controller APPs is to give them things they don't have in their Primary or Secondary powersets, namely attacks and defense/resist toggles.  The question of scale is still present, but adding procs is not creating new functionality for this power, but enhancing its primary function.  I think a bigger aberration is the fact that the best blasts available to defenders are Char and Dominate from their APPs.  

 

 

[Super Atom]

Honestly, after seeing a lot of people express their opinions and how they build and enjoy the game, nerfing procs on a whole would be a detriment to the game. However, there are a small number of procs that could be nerfed a little and some that could be beefed a little still.

 

like that dang guassians

Edited July 7, 2021 by Super Atom

[Marbing]

55 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

Honestly, after seeing a lot of people express their opinions and how they build and enjoy the game, nerfing procs on a whole would be a detriment to the game. However, there are a small number of procs that could be nerfed a little and some that could be beefed a little still.

 

like that dang guassians

I think you are hitting the nail on the head, this may be more about tweaking things instead of a straight nerf.

 

I’d say introduce more procs that do different things (like -tohit, -def, -reg, -rec, -hp, -end, or the opposite for player buffs), buff up the procs that are barely used so that they are more interesting and more likely to be used over a straight damage proc, and find a way to balance out damage procs (and Gaussians) so that they can’t be abused so heavily. I don’t mean nerf them entirely, find that happy medium where they can still be used to great effect but not completely abused to insanity. Especially for some of the powers mentioned here. I know people keep saying oh but that end/acc/rech is bad because of the procs blah blah so it’s a trade off blah blah but let’s get real here those things can be accounted for with incarnates and IO sets VERY easily. Not a hard mountain to climb, I do it all the time. 

 

 

 

Edited July 7, 2021 by th0ughtGun

[Naraka]

3 hours ago, Olerus said:

 

The thing is, to actually achieve 353 DPA from that power you need:

 

* 84.1% in accuracy buffs (after Kismet's +6% Tohit boost)

* some way of accounting for 12.34 endurance/second being added into an attack chain

 

These aren't minor considerations...

 

 

[Galaxy Brain]

1 hour ago, th0ughtGun said:

I think you are hitting the nail on the head, this may be more about tweaking things instead of a straight nerf.

 

I’d say introduce more procs that do different things (like -tohit, -def, -reg, -rec, -hp, -end, or the opposite for player buffs), buff up the procs that are barely used so that they are more interesting and more likely to be used over a straight damage proc, and find a way to balance out damage procs (and Gaussians) so that they can’t be abused so heavily. I don’t mean nerf them entirely, find that happy medium where they can still be used to great effect but not completely abused to insanity. Especially for some of the powers mentioned here. I know people keep saying oh but that end/acc/rech is bad because of the procs blah blah so it’s a trade off blah blah but let’s get real here those things can be accounted for with incarnates and IO sets VERY easily. Not a hard mountain to climb, I do it all the time. 

 

I agree with this take. A far bigger issue that somewhat feeds into this is that a lot of procs are honestly just... bad. Of course when compared they lose out to damage procs, but if they were on the same level they may compete for slots.

[Mezmera]

8 hours ago, Lockpick said:

Procs are fine.  IMO the devs should stop trying to "balance" the game and should focus on adding new features and content. 

 

Now although I do agree if they are looking into power creep that them looking into procs is a bit justified.  But really all I wanted since when they put up a pole long ago of people's wants for the future direction that more content to do would be my most appealing avenue of time spent tinkering with the game. 

 

You can only run the same old late content so much before it's just all so stale, so yes new intriguing fights and more end game content is the main want.  They can overlook all the OP things and not waste time tinkering with Titan Weapons and everything else if we all get more to do.  

[Galaxy Brain]

39 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

 

Now although I do agree if they are looking into power creep that them looking into procs is a bit justified.  But really all I wanted since when they put up a pole long ago of people's wants for the future direction that more content to do would be my most appealing avenue of time spent tinkering with the game. 

 

You can only run the same old late content so much before it's just all so stale, so yes new intriguing fights and more end game content is the main want.  They can overlook all the OP things and not waste time tinkering with Titan Weapons and everything else if we all get more to do.  

 

A note on that, new content then has to take into consideration who / what will be running it. If new content is "made for the IO crowd" it'd then reinforce that all these things are needed, and so on and so forth for other permutations of that argument.

 

So while yes, new content should be the number one thing, making sure the new content can hold up to the players is another beast which may need to take a look at the player power-creep in order to future-proof content.

Edited July 7, 2021 by Galaxy Brain

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

I agree with this take. A far bigger issue that somewhat feeds into this is that a lot of procs are honestly just... bad. Of course when compared they lose out to damage procs, but if they were on the same level they may compete for slots.

We covered that in the other thread, too.  "Bad" is subjective.  Someone disliking a KB proc doesn't mean someone else can't like it.  Someone finding little or no utility in a ToHit Buff proc doesn't mean someone else's build doesn't rely on it.  There are no bad procs, because a proc is just "something extra".  There may be procs which aren't right for you, or me, but they aren't bad, they're just not the bonus we want.

 

 

Going werebear on spawns may be one of the foundations of the game, but it's not the only foundation.

[Olerus]

1 hour ago, Naraka said:

 

It isn't that it is impossible.  Rather, it is that having to do the effort is a big part of why inventions work as a system.  I heavily used the system even back in I9 when it was first introduced, and I can tell you that all of the one-offs and proc heavy attacks have made it tremendously more interesting.  Back when it started, it was pretty simple:

 

• slot defense powers with 1 luck of the gambler and 5 red fortunes in every defense power
• slot 5 crushing impact in melee attacks, 1 touch of death or mako's bite proc if you were feeling spicy
• slot 5 positron's blast in ranged AoEs
• maybe slot impervium armor in resists for the recovery 
• etc.

It wasn't as easy to get softcap defenses, sure, but it was also significantly more formulaic.  The alternative of just slotting a purple set where possible and avoiding things that don't give balanced enhancements and set bonuses would lack this element.  Procced out powers outside of their impact on balance present a much more interesting puzzle than just "what 5/6 slot set bonus does the most", which was a something that dominated IO system for many years.  Now there is much more interesting interplay between enhancement values, set bonuses, and 1-offs and far less 1-slot or 5/6-slot reliance.

 

 And even then, most changes wouldn't fully address any balance discrepancies, it would just scramble builds temporarily.  Even with the old proc behavior, optimized builds still used as many procs as possible, they just slotted them in Smite and Shadow Punch instead of Midnight Grasp or Char.  I know because I soloed most of the GMs, AVs, and task forces with a Dark/Shield Scrapper back in the day doing exactly that.  Current proc mechanics aren't what is broken about bypassing the ED damage softcap.  The only real proc that behaves significantly better in comparison to its live version is Gaussian's. 

 

And even then, the biggest issue with balance at this point isn't IOs at all.  It is incarnates.  An Empathy/Dark defender with no IOs but T4 Incarnates can outdamage a TW/Bio Scrapper with maxed IOs but no incarnates, on the virtue of:

• A pet that does significantly more damage than the average player with no buffs, can be buffed to do even more, and pumps out -resistance to buff a whole league (BP Core)
• A nuke that wipes away minions/lieutenants every 2 minutes
• Near complete endurance mitigation and +15% recharge from Ageless
• Double-hitting attacks that also bypass the ED softcap thanks to Hybrid Assault
• less purple patch hit
• +33% damage from Musculature

These features mean that a team of Incarnates steamrolls both normal mobs (rotating Judgements) and AVs (Lore pets, particularly BP core).  While Incarnates are a part of builds now (I've certainly build around Ageless keeping Hasten permanent or Barrier keeping up softcap), the free nukes and lore pets (and arguably Ageless) aren't really something impacts planning and could easily be toned down with also putting a wrecking ball to virtually every IO build in the game.

 

[oedipus_tex]

I think the person who brought up Gaussian's really hit the nail on the head on the problem with a PPM system. The value of proc chance isn't linear. There is added value as a proc approaches greater certainty. Just the fact that you know the proc is very likely to trigger increases the value of the effect.

 

These two situations are not equally distributed:

• I can fire 3 Hold powers in 15 seconds; one of them will Hold a boss
• I can fire 1 Hold power in 15 seconds; it will almost always Hold a boss

 

Both scenarios above have a proc rate of 1 over a 15 second interval. But they are not the same. 

 

I don't bother putting a proc like +2 Hold in a Controller single target hold because its not reliable. In a Blaster's APP Hold power though, it is. It seems like the formula at the top end doesn't weigh the value of certainty enough. Seems there should be more of a curve, and that it should be very rare for a proc to have greater than around 35-40% chance to fire. Procs should always be a gamble. If that means there are some powers that are less proc-y than others, well, that's already true. 

Edited July 7, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Naraka]

30 minutes ago, Olerus said:

 

It isn't that it is impossible.  Rather, it is that having to do the effort is a big part of why inventions work as a system. 

 

~snip~

 

Current proc mechanics aren't what is broken about bypassing the ED damage softcap.  The only real proc that behaves significantly better in comparison to its live version is Gaussian's. 

 

And even then, the biggest issue with balance at this point isn't IOs at all.  It is incarnates. ~snip~

 

It was mostly just a fun jab since the considerations you're talking about aren't all that difficult to overcome at all.

 

Also, I already have a means of dealing with incarnates: I don't level past the upper 40s on teams just like all the incarnate wanking players tell everyone to do.

 

I'd say, if we're comparing the level of broken-ness of the two, procs are probably close to even with incarnates if only because they affect the entire game even as early as level 1.

 

On a completely other tangent, what is the earliest "proc bomb" one can make in the game?  I'm not asking to prove a point, I'm just curious.  I'd assume it has to be some Trick Arrow character paired with some set that has another hold or maybe Infrigidate?  And how much damage could it do at that level?

 

Edited July 7, 2021 by Naraka

[oedipus_tex]

2 minutes ago, Naraka said:

On a completely other tangent, what is the earliest "proc bomb" one can make in the game?  I'm not asking to prove a point, I'm just curious.  I'd assume it has to be some Trick Arrow character paired with some set that has another hold or maybe Infrigidate?  And how much damage could it do at that level?

 

 

 

The earliest proc bombs probably come from the temporary IOs you get at level 1 from the freebie vendor and can put into early AoE powers like Fireball and Water Burst. You should be able to have 5 procs in those by level 5. That will only last til level 20 though. 

[Luminara]

11 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

I don't envy the person who has to think about how to fix this.

 

Hopefully we can all agree though that this should not be a thing coming from a Controller APP power:

 

 

 

That's a DPA of 353 before adding extra damage from Fulcrum Shift or the like. 

 

I happen to have Seismic Smash on my Grav/TA.  I took her existing build and replaced the 5x Hecatomb with 6x procs to make a comparison.  No other changes were made.

 

With 6x damage procs, which includes the Hecatomb and Unbreakable Constraint procs, 41.15172835729581 damage per second.  The endurance cost is 17.84, the recharge time is 11.36s, the hit chance is 131%.

 

With 5x Hecatomb (excluding the Damage enhancement) and the Unbreakable Constraint proc, 35.60713561727144 damage per second.  The endurance cost is 13.52, the recharge time is 8.15s, the hit chance is 189.2%.

 

5.5 damage per second gained, at the cost of 4.32 extra endurance, 3.21 slower recharge and 68.2% lower hit chance.  There's nothing to fix here.  The DPS increase isn't huge, it's miniscule.  That miniscule gain isn't free, it has costs associated.  And capping damage doesn't give the proc bomb slotting a lead, it actually decreases the gain.  Just switching the secondary from TA to Kin and bumping FS up to 10 targets to cap damage, as a quick and dirty analysis, I see a DPS differential of 3.46336754116357 in the proc bomb's favor. 2 DPS lower than my previous calculations.

 

If this is the shining example of why procs "need" to be nerfed, I'd advise the nerf-herders not to hold their breath.  The HC team isn't going to be hornswoggled that easily.

[oedipus_tex]

31 minutes ago, Luminara said:

If this is the shining example of why procs "need" to be nerfed, I'd advise the nerf-herders not to hold their breath.

 

 

Congrats on finding a build you enjoy and thanks for weighing in. I appreciate your contribution to the conversation. But you know as well I do that you can get Recharge and Accuracy from places other than slotting the power itself. 

 

 

31 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 Just switching the secondary from TA to Kin and bumping FS up to 10 targets to cap damage, as a quick and dirty analysis, I see a DPS differential of 3.46336754116357 in the proc bomb's favor. 2 DPS lower than my previous calculations.

 

I'm sorry, I didn't follow you. On a saturated Kinetics build proc damage can only make you hit even harder. I know you know this so I am lost. Do you mean not putting Recharge in the power itself in a particular build slows down how often you can use it and therefor overall DPS? Of course that's true. 

Edited July 7, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Mezmera]

2 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

A note on that, new content then has to take into consideration who / what will be running it. If new content is "made for the IO crowd" it'd then reinforce that all these things are needed, and so on and so forth for other permutations of that argument.

 

So while yes, new content should be the number one thing, making sure the new content can hold up to the players is another beast which may need to take a look at the player power-creep in order to future-proof content.

 

We've had quite a few mid level arcs added recently.  Plus there's also the limitless archive of content to do pre-45.  Going Rogue was going to be throwing a bone to the people that found their forever character and wanted more challenging stuff to do at the end with them.  

 

The regular folk have had plenty of cake by now.  

[oedipus_tex]

I wanted to give Luminara the full benefit of the doubt so I took out my existing Grav/Kin/Earth build to see how revising Seismic Smash with her x5 Hecatomb x1 Unbreakable slotting would work out. Turns out that's pretty smart slotting for some builds, mainly because it nets you two very high damage high PPM procs while retaining set bonuses. So thanks to her for that. That's worth working into future builds, particularly on Dominators. It does imply you're swinging at creatures Scrapper-style and not doing other stuff, but I suppose that could be justified for a power like Seismic, a Mag 4 Hold, more than it would be for more traditional attacks. Also having it Recharge a few seconds faster, allowing you to Hold monsters faster could be a benefit the proc version doesn't attain.

 

Still, the damage is that high in part because of two high damage high PPM procs. Not sure it completely disproves the OPs point. Also there's the chance for +100% Recharge that easily slots into Fissure that throws this off a bit. Kinetics/Earth really shouldn't be struggling for global recharge so I wonder a bit about final calcs.

[Olerus]

1 hour ago, Naraka said:

 

It was mostly just a fun jab since the considerations you're talking about aren't all that difficult to overcome at all.

 

Also, I already have a means of dealing with incarnates: I don't level past the upper 40s on teams just like all the incarnate wanking players tell everyone to do.

 

I'd say, if we're comparing the level of broken-ness of the two, procs are probably close to even with incarnates if only because they affect the entire game even as early as level 1.

 

On a completely other tangent, what is the earliest "proc bomb" one can make in the game?  I'm not asking to prove a point, I'm just curious.  I'd assume it has to be some Trick Arrow character paired with some set that has another hold or maybe Infrigidate?  And how much damage could it do at that level?

 

 

The earliest procs in the game are the five P2W enhancements, along with ATO procs.  A character can slot 5 of them by level 5 into a strong early AoE and be effective for no cost; a bankrolled character could 6-slot said power with a decent ATO at level 7 or mix and match at level 5 with auto-slots in another power. PvP unique procs and a small number of other useful procs are available at level 7 as well.  This includes Achilles/Shield Breaker for defense debuff, Impeded Swiftness for Slows, Cloud Senses for ToHit debuffs, Neuronic Shutdown for holds, and Explosive Strike for Knockdowns.     

 

So ideally you'd want different types of attacks (Ranged/Melee/Hold/AoE/PBAoE), with multiple of the above effects, with some way to mitigate accuracy issues.

 

A Dark/Rad Dominator could reasonably do this at level 7.  Dark Grasp, which normally deals 14.5812 damage, would deal 41.1157 on average.  Contaminated Strike, which normally deals 24.7652 damage, would deal 36.8800 with a 29.43% chance of triggering Achilles' Heel.  At this level, a minion has roughly 58.80 HP, so they would survive either power but not both.  This isn't exactly setting the world on fire and is probably weaker than a blaster or scrapper slotting the P2W enhancements in their early AoEs and comboing them with BU/Aim.

 

This Villain build was built using Mids Reborn 3.0.3.1
https://github.com/Reborn-Team/MidsReborn

Level 49 Magic Dominator
Primary Power Set: Darkness Control
Secondary Power Set: Radioactive Assault

Villain Profile:
------------
Level 1:    Dark Grasp            NrnSht-Dam%(A), GldNet-Dam%(3), GldJvl-Dam/End/Rech(3), CldSns-%Dam(5)
Level 1:    Neutrino Bolt            AchHee-ResDeb%(A), ShlBrk-%Dam(5)
Level 2:    Contaminated Strike        ShlBrk-%Dam(A), AchHee-ResDeb%(7), GldStr-%Dam(7)
Level 4:    Living Shadows            JvlVll-Dam%(A)
Level 6:    X-Ray Beam            AchHee-ResDeb%(A)
Level 1:    Brawl                Empty(A)
Level 1:    Domination    
Level 1:    Sprint                Empty(A)
Level 2:    Rest                Empty(A)
Level 2:    Swift                Empty(A)
Level 2:    Health                Pnc-Heal/+End(A)
Level 2:    Hurdle                Empty(A)
Level 2:    Stamina                Empty(A)
------------

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

 

I happen to have Seismic Smash on my Grav/TA.  I took her existing build and replaced the 5x Hecatomb with 6x procs to make a comparison.  No other changes were made.

 

With 6x damage procs, which includes the Hecatomb and Unbreakable Constraint procs, 41.15172835729581 damage per second.  The endurance cost is 17.84, the recharge time is 11.36s, the hit chance is 131%.

 

With 5x Hecatomb (excluding the Damage enhancement) and the Unbreakable Constraint proc, 35.60713561727144 damage per second.  The endurance cost is 13.52, the recharge time is 8.15s, the hit chance is 189.2%.

 

5.5 damage per second gained, at the cost of 4.32 extra endurance, 3.21 slower recharge and 68.2% lower hit chance.  There's nothing to fix here.  The DPS increase isn't huge, it's miniscule.  That miniscule gain isn't free, it has costs associated.  And capping damage doesn't give the proc bomb slotting a lead, it actually decreases the gain.  Just switching the secondary from TA to Kin and bumping FS up to 10 targets to cap damage, as a quick and dirty analysis, I see a DPS differential of 3.46336754116357 in the proc bomb's favor. 2 DPS lower than my previous calculations.

 

If this is the shining example of why procs "need" to be nerfed, I'd advise the nerf-herders not to hold their breath.  The HC team isn't going to be hornswoggled that easily.

I guess I'm just crazy but, why would DPS matter on a controller? Wouldn't a controller be using more support and control powers? This wouldn't DPA be the point of using this type of slotting? Not to use it off rech but rather to delete targets?

[FreedomFarmFranchise]

On 7/5/2021 at 4:14 AM, FreedomFarmFranchise said:

OK WELL i just spent about 3hrs preparing a post for this topic, had everything written down over 2k words easy, had examples/facts to back my #crunching, basically i just made a MASTERPIECE of an argument about this and other topics of the sort......people talking about "OP" and "Overpowered" Unfair/Unbalanced.........

 

so in a nut shell ALL YOU COMPLAINERS, WHINERS, CRYMORES.....that have been spamming the devs/creators to "NERF" this, and "Balance" that, "fix those" and take out those" ect. 

YOU ALL NEED TO LEARN HOW TO BUILD A CHARACTER!!! PERIOD!!!!

 

Nothing is OP in this game, NOTHING is overpowered, and IF ANYTHING needs to be "fixed" its the ability to complain about somthing "YOU PERSONALLY" dont like and attempt to get it changed for SELFISH and UNEXPERIENCED reasons....."Literally complain about the most COSMETIC OF THINGS" 

 

Procs r being looked at? for what TO be improved if anything I HOPE, cuz honestly alot of the IO's/Sets r GARBAGE!!!! and NEVER USED BY ANYONE!.......but ofc there r the 6-8 Solid and ALWAYS USED set IO's in virtually every build...

 

IF YOUR LEVEL 50+ and you DEPEND/RELY/CANT SURVIVE w/o Inspers/Incarnates/team/temp buffs, YOU NEED TO GO BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD!!!!.......

with the exception of power pools and ancillary powers.....once lvl 50 and all powers have been chosen, and all IO's have been placed, your ability to survive, excel and conquer the PvE story content, should be a walk in the park!

 

sorry if i sound angry, im a little upset about these types of "adjustments" to the game.....but really im aggrivated with myself cuz i had a really good post before i lost it.....

 

i will later today maybe take time to try again, but i have 1 suggestion.........

 

..............THIS GAME NEEDS A COMPLEX CUSTOMIZABLE USER INTERFACE FOR # CRUNCHING AND UNDERSTANDING THE METADATA/ALGORITHIM  OF LITERALLY ALL THE STATISTICAL STATS....THAT ALLOWS US TO "TEST-RUN/TRIAL RUN" OUR TOONS IN A DESIGNED MISSION/ATMOSPHERE WE CAN LITERALLY LEARN AND TEACH OURSELVES HOW THINGS LIKE DIMINISHING RETURNS WORKS, HOW/WHEN/WHY/WHERE DO UNIQUE/PROC IO'S AND ALL BONUSES, POWERS, BUFFS, STEALTHS, ECT.........................

 

 

THIS POST DOES NO JUSTICE FOR WHAT I WAS MEANING TO SUGGEST SAY, SORRY!

 

    

I'm not tryna sound like a jackass but the truth is any 1 of my toons (including my petless mastermind) can out survive, out dps (single targets) and single handedly if needed (on PuG teams it's a givin) conquer any objectives to speed up missions, as well as buff my teammates while I branch off to complete these tasks so they continue to stay protected. I can fight +4/×8 in over capped mobs (I fight always inside the mob as well) and respond to pm's I often get while doing all this at the same time.....and it's because I'm self sufficient already. Being on a team that has any Xtra amount of support just makes me even more monstrous. I'm not a team to be the fastest, I'm on the team to be the most reliable. And when on teams with toons built like mine IDC what AT they r....we will devour ANYTHING! RSF IN 6MIN STF in 9min LGTF 13min Barracuda 17min ITF 8min these r just some of my best....but to give an AVG time for all TF PuGs u can add 20min to all still getting stuff done most TF under 30min

Edited July 8, 2021 by FreedomFarmFranchise

[Luminara]

36 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

you know as well I do that you can get Recharge and Accuracy from places other than slotting the power itself.

 

I believe I just pointed that out, by saying that the build was otherwise identical, with only the slotting in Seismic Smash changed.  And the math showed that having a pile of global +Recharge and +Accuracy only resulted in the proc bomb offering a minute increase in DPS.  In other words, the traditionally slotted Seismic Smash benefited from the same global bonuses that the proc bomb Seismic Smash did.

 

42 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

I'm sorry, I didn't follow you. On a saturated Kinetics build proc damage can only make you hit even harder. I know you know this so I am lost.

 

Capping the damage on the build, the proc bomb hits harder.  Per individual use.  When you use it, it hits for a lot.

 

The Hecatomb Seismic Smash also hits harder when it's also at the damage cap.  Not quite as hard as the proc bomb, but it's still a lot.  But it also cycles faster.  Cycling faster, the Hecatomb Seismic Smash narrows the gap by 2.1 damage per second, rather than falling farther behind.  With all other things being equal between builds, at less than capped damage, the proc bomb is slightly better damage per second, only slightly, than the traditionally slotted power.  At the damage cap, that lead diminishes, not increases, because the more rapid cycling of the traditional slotting brings it closer to parity.

 

Yes, you can find ways to increase the proc bomb's cycle time, but those same improvements would apply to the Hecatomb slotting.  I suspect the only slotting which would show a clear and sizeable advantage for the proc bomb would be if both powers were examined at the damage cap and very near the recharge cap.  The Hecatomb slotting would hit the recharge cap sooner, at which point the procs would finally begin to edge ahead, and possibly display a sizeable advantage when it hit the recharge cap.  But at that point, we're talking about extreme edge cases, and we both know the HC team isn't going to nerf procs because of edge case performance.

 

34 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

Still, the damage is that high in part because of two high damage high PPM procs.

 

Which you also used in your example.  You can't use them to demonstrate a high DPA proc bomb, then disallow them in a DPS comparison.

 

35 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

Also there's the chance for +100% Recharge that easily slots into Fissure that throws this off a bit. Kinetics/Earth really shouldn't be struggling for global recharge so I wonder a bit about final calcs.

 

Barring the 10% from Hecatomb, the builds I compared had otherwise identical global +Recharge.  The difference in cycle time, and therefore DPS, wasn't due to that 10% global +Recharge, it was due to the 89.92% Recharge Reduction in Hecatomb.

 

And if you're going to test with additional global +Recharge, it has to be applied equally, to the comparison build as well, to ensure that the comparison is accurate.

[Galaxy Brain]

2 hours ago, Luminara said:

We covered that in the other thread, too.  "Bad" is subjective.  Someone disliking a KB proc doesn't mean someone else can't like it.  Someone finding little or no utility in a ToHit Buff proc doesn't mean someone else's build doesn't rely on it.  There are no bad procs, because a proc is just "something extra".  There may be procs which aren't right for you, or me, but they aren't bad, they're just not the bonus we want.

 

 

Going werebear on spawns may be one of the foundations of the game, but it's not the only foundation.

 

People can certainly like procs that are not as good as others, just as much as people can like running X challenge builds! It however does not mean there cannot be an objectively bad proc not only due to the proc itself, but for how it exists in relation to what powers accept it + the "competition". 

 

An example of a proc that is just sort of poor could be Tempest with it's -13% End Drain. For one, it is end drain of which it's use is a bit dubious, and it's position as an ST Ranged proc means it really only Synergizes with Elec Blast type attacks, of which often get more out of End Drain slotting given it is not a guaranteed to go off per hit, let alone focusing on Sapping with ST attacks when you have Short Circuit + X that does the job to an entire spawn. If it is not slotted alongside -End synergies, its use is very questionable alongside what other options can be slotted not only from Ranged Sets alone, but also from whatever secondary sets the power may take alongside stuff like Sniper Sets, and so on. All things taken into account, I could confidently say that Tempest is not a very good proc option compared to most anything else you could slot into it's category. You could have a proc that does something amazing on paper, but in practice due to what accepts it and how it goes off / interactions within what accepts it, it can end up being an objectively worse choice than other options.

 

That is not to say other procs should be brought down, if anything it makes a case for Tempest to be brought up to snuff for those who find the idea of it fun. 

 

 

As for the seismic smash example, it is a good case to go 👀 over due to the silly amount of procs it can take + it being an amazing attack as-is, unlike some other examples where they do like 2 base damage + accept a lot of procs. The DPS view of it seems a little off tho, as wouldn't the DPA combined with other attacks be where it shines?

 

 

[oedipus_tex]

2 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

I believe I just pointed that out, by saying that the build was otherwise identical, with only the slotting in Seismic Smash changed.  And the math showed that having a pile of global +Recharge and +Accuracy only resulted in the proc bomb offering a minute increase in DPS.  In other words, the traditionally slotted Seismic Smash benefited from the same global bonuses that the proc bomb Seismic Smash did.

 

 

Capping the damage on the build, the proc bomb hits harder.  Per individual use.  When you use it, it hits for a lot.

 

The Hecatomb Seismic Smash also hits harder when it's also at the damage cap.  Not quite as hard as the proc bomb, but it's still a lot.  But it also cycles faster.  Cycling faster, the Hecatomb Seismic Smash narrows the gap by 2.1 damage per second, rather than falling farther behind.  With all other things being equal between builds, at less than capped damage, the proc bomb is slightly better damage per second, only slightly, than the traditionally slotted power.  At the damage cap, that lead diminishes, not increases, because the more rapid cycling of the traditional slotting brings it closer to parity.

 

Yes, you can find ways to increase the proc bomb's cycle time, but those same improvements would apply to the Hecatomb slotting.  I suspect the only slotting which would show a clear and sizeable advantage for the proc bomb would be if both powers were examined at the damage cap and very near the recharge cap.  The Hecatomb slotting would hit the recharge cap sooner, at which point the procs would finally begin to edge ahead, and possibly display a sizeable advantage when it hit the recharge cap.  But at that point, we're talking about extreme edge cases, and we both know the HC team isn't going to nerf procs because of edge case performance.

 

 

Which you also used in your example.  You can't use them to demonstrate a high DPA proc bomb, then disallow them in a DPS comparison.

 

 

Barring the 10% from Hecatomb, the builds I compared had otherwise identical global +Recharge.  The difference in cycle time, and therefore DPS, wasn't due to that 10% global +Recharge, it was due to the 89.92% Recharge Reduction in Hecatomb.

 

And if you're going to test with additional global +Recharge, it has to be applied equally, to the comparison build as well, to ensure that the comparison is accurate.

 

 

Thank you for the explanation. I appreciate you breaking it down.

 

Since this is a conversation about procs, I think it's fair to mention that what you are describing is also a proc build. One version is a 6 proccer in the style of Dominate, the other a 2 purple proc with more traditional slotting. Both are benefitting from the PPM systems interaction with long recharge powers. In the case of the Hecatomb build, the two procs are contributing ~200 points of damage per cast.

 

I quite like your slotting for some builds because it retains the set bonuses and utility of the power. I'm not sure I'd use it for a click-busy build. On a Controller I'm not usually in the position to hit attacks as rapidly as I would like. I usually click whatever is the most useful thing that happens to be recharged right now. Seismic is a very good power so I appreciate being able to access it more often. Just not sure I'd always want to do that, especially on Kinetics, which is where the value of the procs really sticks out to me--after saturating with Fulcrum Shift, I'm estimating a DPA in the 500s. If I were talking about a Scrapper I'd want to be able to take that swing every time it was up, on a Controller, particularly a Kinetics Controller, I'm less convinced I wouldn't loose those couple of seconds you are including in the calc on a heal, debuff, or mezz.

 

DPS depends on your willingness to hammer the power the instant it recharges. DPA is an always-in investment, which is why the huge DPA of this power sticks out to me. Same reason Arcane Bolt is so attractive on Controllers these days. 

 

 

[Luminara]

4 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

procs that are not as good as others

 

Subjective.  No different from saying that one kind of pet (cat, dog, sugar glider, hedgehog, etc.) is better than another, based on your personal preference.