Ice Melee - "Greater" Ice Sword

[Sancerre]

So taking a hard look at Ice Melee's "Greater" Ice Sword, one would think this "Greater" version would be flat out superior in just about every metric compared to just a very standard Ice Sword.

 

How it stacks up (Tanker Numbers):

 

First off -- a look at the pieces that, frankly, very few people care about... yes the debuff numbers are better on Greater Ice Sword.  aside from maybe applications in PvP, the difference in travel speed is very negligible and appears to be there as more of a theme of the powerset... that is fine.  if critters want to run away, a -16% travel speed debuff isnt going to stop them all the same as the -8% debuff wont.  My point here is that this attack is not particularly rooted on a secondary status effect, so the focal point SHOULD be the damage part.

 

Next up -- the accuracy modifier.  it has a 90% base chance to hit instead of the standard 75% chance to hit.  this is certainly a nice bonus but probably very overlooked even by veterans of the powerset.  there are some niche applications in PvE here (where to-hit debuffs roll in) but for general content, you will be built around 95% accuracy regardless.  PvP goers probably care about this much more i suppose.

 

Now for the meat and bones here... the damage.  the damage is certainly higher as a raw number but it fails on the other 2 metrics, as the Tier 8 power of the set.

It has _BOTH_ a lower Damage Per Activation Time (18%) *AND* Damage Per Cast Cycle (13%).

My understanding is that the original developers (attempted to) 'balance' around damage per cast cycle, but eventually discovered it was a flawed metric to use.  I am not sure how much value DPCC stat actually has but it is conveyed in the stat sheet here, so i dropped it in.

As an interesting piece... there are recommendations for ice melee to pick up cross punch (a melee cone, from a power pool) instead because the DPA wins out against the "Greater" Ice Sword (single target melee, tier 8).  I think cross punch is a great attack (fully synergized), but this just feels wrong.

 

as a final comparison -- a look at the other 2 powersets with elemental sword attacks, fire and psi (data from Mids this time).

Psi Blade DPA: 66.72

Psi Blade DPCC: 14.02

Greater Psi Blade DPA: 87.49

Greater Psi Blade DPCC: 12.5

 

Fire Sword DPA: 61.81

Fire Sword DPCC: 11.22

Greater Fire Sword DPA: 67.52

Greater Fire Sword DPCC: 10.98

 

in both cases the 'Greater' version is fundamentally a better attack DPA wise. Again im really not sure on the value of DPCC, but included it for comparison.  Also note that these 'Greater' versions have the 90% innate accuracy all the same.

 

Proposal -- Can we take a look at bumping the numbers on Greater Ice Sword to be more competitive?

 

Change would effect Tankers, Brutes, and Scrappers (Stalkers do not get this button).  Not intending to turn Greater Ice Sword into the god killer sword, just bring it in line with ice sword's numbers so that it _feels_ more impactful to match the heavy looking animation time.  a straight 20% damage buff to Greater Ice Sword would just barely edge over the DPA stat above standard Ice Sword (currently 18% lower).  If you need to 'counter-balance' in some way, hit the recharge end -- 10 seconds to 12 seconds (20%).

[arcane]

Well considering Freezing Touch is some of the game’s best DPA - and Ice is no AoE slouch either... not sure there’s much of a need to address here.

[JasperStone]

This always been a problem with Ice Melee.

During live I had an Ice/Ice/Ice tanker as a main, brought her back on Homecoming. With slows and holds alway run her more as a superiorly armored Ice controller

 

It has always ranked at the bottom as far as damage is concerned. Keep in mind the Foot stomp used to be a sleep.

 

Why is Greater Ice Swords dmg out put made this way ... no idea.  Never liked it

[Sancerre]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

Well considering Freezing Touch is some of the game’s best DPA - and Ice is no AoE slouch either... not sure there’s much of a need to address here.

a bit of apples and oranges.  ice melee is _NOT_ the king of single target DPS despite it having _ONE_ very high DPA attack. 

i can ponder why Freezing Touch is as good as it is, or we can fix a thematic problem with a bad ability (Greater Ice Sword).

 

also Ice Sword DPA itself is very 'average' in comparison to other melee powersets T1/T2 attacks.  It is certainly nowhere near Dark Melee's Smite, for example.  'Greater' Ice Sword is actually just one of the worst single target DPA powers available across ALL of the melee powersets while offering very little meaningful secondary benefits... especially being at Tier 8, making this even more of an outlier.  The 20% request only brings it in line with standard ice sword... not particularly above and beyond.

[JayboH]

I was just happy with ice patch getting sped up in the last big patch

[Super Atom]

Increase GIS damage, add a small dot to ice-patch and call it a day. (when i say small i do mean small)

Edited July 5, 2021 by Super Atom

[Sancerre]

3 hours ago, Super Atom said:

Increase GIS damage, add a small dot to ice-patch and call it a day. (when i say small i do mean small)

 

i appreciate the feedback, but i do want to keep this thread focused specifically on greater ice sword and away from an 'ice melee rework' concept

 

that said i will branch off on a tangent here for the ice patch suggestion.  i am not personally opposed to the idea.  there are obviously implications attached to adding damage to ice patch of being able to proc bomb it.  however it could be implemented as _un-enhanceable_ damage as well.  anyways, further discussion on it would probably merit its own thread.

[macskull]

4 hours ago, Super Atom said:

Increase GIS damage, add a small dot to ice-patch and call it a day. (when i say small i do mean small)

Only way GIS gets better is by either reducing its animation time or increasing its recharge (which raises damage scale).

[Sancerre]

23 minutes ago, macskull said:

Only way GIS gets better is by either reducing its animation time or increasing its recharge (which raises damage scale).

 

i dont think reducing animation time is a thematically good option.  it is supposed to be the more weighty and impactful 'greater' ice sword.  the animation matches that already.  the damage doesnt.  the ability fails spectacularly in its current form.

 

to note, i did call out to increase recharge as well (10 -> 12 seconds).  i think more folks would be happier if it did noticeably more damage and DPA than standard ice sword, but i am not trying to create waves here.  i have have illustrated some guidelines to bring the skill into (what i believe to be) a functionally neutral state and 'worth taking'.

[Super Atom]

58 minutes ago, macskull said:

Only way GIS gets better is by either reducing its animation time or increasing its recharge (which raises damage scale).

 

or rename it Slightly-greater Ice Sword.

 

easier imo

Edited July 6, 2021 by Super Atom

[Sovera]

And that's why I use and recommend Frost over GiS. Frost does 9 damage less, animates in the same time, and hits in AoE.

[Sancerre]

12 hours ago, Sovera said:

And that's why I use and recommend Frost over GiS. Frost does 9 damage less, animates in the same time, and hits in AoE.

so we agree that Greater Ice Sword is terrible.  Lets take the opportunity to FIX it instead of just shunning folks away from it.

[Sovera]

Just now, Sancerre said:

so we agree that Greater Ice Sword is terrible.  Lets take the opportunity to FIX it instead of just shunning folks away from it.

 

?

 

Devs fix things. We spitball things on the suggestion forums. It's a laudable goal but has no bearing with fixing or the Sentinel AT would be in tip top shape by now.

[Super Atom]

5 minutes ago, Sancerre said:

so we agree that Greater Ice Sword is terrible.  Lets take the opportunity to FIX it instead of just shunning folks away from it.

 

Everyone has agreed on a lot of things for a long time through many many threads. My best solution in the meantime is play stalker. No GIS no problem.

[Galaxy Brain]

55 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

 

Everyone has agreed on a lot of things for a long time through many many threads. My best solution in the meantime is play stalker. No GIS no problem.

 

Shh, we're supposed to stay hidden.

[JayboH]

Not nuts about the idea for ice patch.  I think it's great as-is, especially now.  It's a great and cheap mitigation tool.  Think of what other sets have to go through to compare, that being Repel from Kinetics and Sonic Repulsion from Sonic Resonance, both requiring heavy endurance slotting on top of changing kb to kd.

[macskull]

22 hours ago, Sancerre said:

to note, i did call out to increase recharge as well (10 -> 12 seconds).  i think more folks would be happier if it did noticeably more damage and DPA than standard ice sword, but i am not trying to create waves here.  i have have illustrated some guidelines to bring the skill into (what i believe to be) a functionally neutral state and 'worth taking'.

You'd need to recharge to be about 13 seconds for GIS's DPA to exceed Ice Sword, even with a 12s recharge GIS is still a worse choice than plain ol' Ice Sword.

[Super Atom]

4 hours ago, JayboH said:

Not nuts about the idea for ice patch.

 

in my defense, i said that before i knew they decreased it's activation time 😛

 

back on topic though

1 hour ago, macskull said:

You'd need to recharge to be about 13 seconds for GIS's DPA to exceed Ice Sword, even with a 12s recharge GIS is still a worse choice than plain ol' Ice Sword.

 

I'd be ok with a 13 second GIS to increase it's DPA and kinda feel like it should it is GREATER after all

Edited July 7, 2021 by Super Atom

[JayboH]

8 hours ago, Super Atom said:

 

in my defense, i said that before i knew they decreased it's activation time 😛

 

It's the one thing I made a request for real early and was so happy they did it in the very next patch after I asked.

[Super Atom]

4 hours ago, JayboH said:

It's the one thing I made a request for real early and was so happy they did it in the very next patch after I asked.

 

well could you ask them to fix GIS next

[Sancerre]

18 hours ago, macskull said:

You'd need to recharge to be about 13 seconds for GIS's DPA to exceed Ice Sword, even with a 12s recharge GIS is still a worse choice than plain ol' Ice Sword.

 

My opinion, along with what appears to be general consensus of the thread so far, has been that Greater Ice Sword currently lacks punch and is very skippable in its current form.  whatever recharge it takes to make this thing use-able is fine in my mind.  there are other implications with recharge that surround the 'balance' of the skill.  If i could change the skill to be 'perfect for me', i wouldnt stop at 13s, but again the goal of this thread is not to shake-up the powerset.

 

8 hours ago, JayboH said:

It's the one thing I made a request for real early and was so happy they did it in the very next patch after I asked.

 

and thats the value of making a thread like this.  to bring attention to skills that _need_ modification.  i really appreciate the change to ice patch.  i do think it is in a great spot right now and is very powerful as is.

[Riverdusk]

Which is why I'll only play ice melee on a stalker.   Bye bye GiS, hello assassin strike in its place.

 

Yes, GiS needs a bit of love.  Frozen fists also being terrible doesn't help either.  

[Sancerre]

35 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

Which is why I'll only play ice melee on a stalker.   Bye bye GiS, hello assassin strike in its place.

 

Yes, GiS needs a bit of love.  Frozen fists also being terrible doesn't help either.  

 

i more or less dont mind frozen fists being the hot garbage that it is.  i think it is a general overlooked design 'problem' at this point with virtually every damage powerset in the game -- either the T1 or T2 power is skipped and never looked back on.  i do not necessarily see this as a problem, but instead a consequence of having greater amounts of recharge vs activation time of skills as your character progresses.  Frozen fists is technically useful while leveling (if you ignore the prestige powers).  This follows along with any other such T1/T2 powers... nobody concerned about optimizing damage will be taking T1 Bash in the War Mace tree, for example.

 

to the stalker point -- stalker has its perks and its downfalls.  there are 4 melee ATs in the game sharing virtually the same powersets (minor adjustments).  I dont think it would be fair to assert that Greater Ice Sword does not need to be changed because Stalker specifically doesn't even have access to the ability.  I do _NOT_ believe that was your intention with the comment anyways.  you are not the only one to have made this type of comment though, so i am just intending to be fully clear about the message for the topic.

 

**i suppose it was a bit unfair to write off frozen fists for tankers specifically as they are absolutely _forced_ to take it.  i will still, more timidly, stand with my original comment.  on a personal level, i dont mind it being what it is, but i am not opposed to changes to make it better (along with other such T1/T2 powers).

Edited July 7, 2021 by Sancerre

[Riverdusk]

2 minutes ago, Sancerre said:

 

i more or less dont mind frozen fists being the hot garbage that it is.  i think it is a general overlooked design 'problem' at this point with virtually every damage powerset in the game -- either the T1 or T2 power is skipped and never looked back on.  i do not necessarily see this as a problem, but instead a consequence of having greater amounts of recharge vs activation time of skills as your character progresses.  Frozen fists is technically useful while leveling (if you ignore the prestige powers).  This follows along with any other such T1/T2 powers... nobody concerned about optimizing damage will be taking T1 Bash in the War Mace tree, for example.

 

Yeah, I tend to take both T1 and T2 on my characters, so maybe I'm the exception. 

 

In this case I'm directly looking at stone melee as a comparison.  Stone fists is MUCH better than frozen fists and stone mallet is actually a tiny fraction better than ice sword (DPA wise).  I'd love to see frozen fists get the same animation as stone fists (but icy of course).

[JayboH]

3 hours ago, Riverdusk said:

 

Yeah, I tend to take both T1 and T2 on my characters, so maybe I'm the exception. 

 

In this case I'm directly looking at stone melee as a comparison.  Stone fists is MUCH better than frozen fists and stone mallet is actually a tiny fraction better than ice sword (DPA wise).  I'd love to see frozen fists get the same animation as stone fists (but icy of course).

What about comparing it to Barrage?