What are you guys doing to revive PvP? A suggestion.

[Illy]

When I played last year, pvp was already close to being nonexistent-- it consisted of very closed-off arena matches played out between very stale group compositions (blasters and more blasters). As I contemplated returning this year, I gathered from various player-sources that pvp really has died on Indomitable. 

 

At this point, no alteration to the game for the purpose of reviving pvp would be too radical. What do you have to lose? Things could not be in a worse state. 

 

My suggestion is to turn Indomitable into a world-pvp server. Close off lower level zones in hero/villain territory to the opposite faction so that there is no hazing, but open up the mid-to-higher level zones to pvp. Get rid of architect entertainment on this server, or there will be no one in the world to fight. Turn on prestige again and allow pvp kills to generate prestige for supergroups. Yeah, this is radical, but for players who are really opposed to such changes, there are other servers for them. 

 

I'm convinced that the only other change which has a chance at reviving pvp would be to vastly improve the reward system in arenas and zone pvp, but to what end? The game is too easy for any rewards to really matter to players-- prestige doesn't exist, and there is no content in the game that can't already be beaten easily. A pvp system which relies on players basically pvping for the sake of it, and for "fun", always dies a quick death. For active pvp to be sustained, a logical reward system needs to be in place. That, or pvp needs to be unavoidable. 

 

Sorry for the low effort post, I typed this quickly because I realize that it has about a 0.001% chance of coming to fruition. Developmental work is unpaid, and the community has proven to be recalcitrant to any challenge whatsoever. But I thought I'd give it a try, because I miss pvp . 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Super Atom]

PvP died December 2nd, 2008

[Haijinx]

3 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

PvP died December 2nd, 2008

 

Was totally ganked too. 

[Wavicle]

8 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

PvP died December 2nd, 2008

 

And they were singin', bye-bye, Miss American Pie
Drove my Chevy to the levee, but the levee was dry
And them good ol' boys were drinkin' whiskey and rye
Singin', "This'll be the day that I die
This'll be the day that I die"

[Super Atom]

A more serious reply to your suggestion though.

 

Open PvP on Indom wouldn't work as most of them don't PvP and forcing them now to leave their server would be silly. Increased rewards in PvP on homecoming is pointless, everything is super easy to get anyway.

 

Honestly? The only way to fix PvP would be to turn back time and not have IO's be so easily available and prevent issue 13 from happening so it doesn't make the PvP community go from extremely active across all servers with a huge test league to barren or dead on most servers (except freedom).

 

The 2nd best way is to listen to whatever the people who enjoy it currently have to say and do that so they keep enjoying it.

Edited July 18, 2021 by Super Atom

[Illy]

23 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

 

The 2nd best way is to listen to whatever the people who enjoy it currently have to say and do that so they keep enjoying it.

 

Generally speaking, pvpers tend to be their own worst enemy in this regard. 

[GraspingVileTerror]

Yeah.

@Illy's got it.

Fine-tuning PvP on the feedback of hardcore PvPers doesn't make PvP accessible to those who might be interested in dabbling, and eventually finding their way in.

Shifting PvP back toward a state where player performance feels consistent between PvE and PvP might help . . . but even that probably wouldn't be enough.

I think more objective-based PvP would probably help.  Give players content where they can engage with the game in a familiar context, but with the added threat of other players.

Still, a dedicated PvP build will utterly destroy a regular player, making for a hostile play experience that isn't conducive to long-term engagement.

 

And so . . .

Dropping the ceiling on PvP for -some- zones would probably be a great gateway.  If new players -couldn't- be utterly annihilated by a veteran PvPer, and be on even footing, it would give more space to learn, grow, and fail without the instant frustration of unavoidable defeat.

 

Flesh out the Shivan Shard with optional side-objectives.  Maybe have the giant Shivan monster spawn in-zone, and downing it grants a temporary, zone-specific buff.

 

Make the battle for Siren's Call more consistent, by having the NPC battles follow a set pattern of progression from one end of the zone to the other, taking Outposts, then offer players on that side a safe haven to retreat to as a reward for helping their side win.

 

Create a new PvP Zone to showcase and leverage newer gameplay mechanics in a PvP context.

 

It could be really wise to follow a MOBA framework (and trust me, I'm not a fan of MOBAs in general, but I admit that they have pretty much cracked the nut when it comes to objective-driven PvP where big strong player-heroes destroy scores of weak NPC enemies, before tackling one another).

 

Otherwise?

You just keep iterating on PvP using the feedback from the existing PvPers, and little by little they'll get their fill of the same-old, same-old.

Catering to an ever-shrinking demographic is a self-sabotaging approach.  Especially for something hinging on competitiveness in an otherwise cooperative environment.

Capitalize on what works in the rest of the game, and use it as the primary framework for attracting new players in to the scene.

[srmalloy]

2 hours ago, Illy said:

Developmental work is unpaid, and the community has proven to be recalcitrant to any challenge whatsoever.

Or looks at the cost (coder and artist effort to implement changes to make PvP more 'accessible') vs. the benefits (the fraction of the existing community who are already experienced with PvP, but lack a population of noobs unused to the differences between PvE and PvP to run roughshod over to demonstrate their 1337 5ki11z).

 

And I recognize that I'm biased on the subject; my experience in other MMOs is that PvP, particularly open-world PvP, is a venue for people who can't think of any other way to validate themselves than by proving their superiority using the single measure of how fast their level-capped combat monster with BiS gear can gank lowbies fresh out of the training areas.

 

The question is not "how can we make PvP more accessible?" but "How do we get more people, either already playing or new, interested in PvP?" And as long as, as @GraspingVileTerror mentioned, a dedicated PvP build in the hands of someone who knows how to play it properly can stomp all over someone new to PvP, you're going to get people going into a PvP zone, getting their ass handed to them, and deciding they're not interested in PvP. And nothing short of a major rework of PvP is going to change that. Right now, on Homecoming, the people who are interested in PvP are in PvP, and the ones who aren't... aren't. Giving people more to do while they're getting their ass kicked isn't going to make PvP more attractive to people who are uninterested in PvP.

 

[FrauleinMental]

If you want to obliterate the server population, this is a way to do it.  Plenty of people on Indomitable have little interest in PvP.

[Illy]

9 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

Or looks at the cost (coder and artist effort to implement changes to make PvP more 'accessible') vs. the benefits (the fraction of the existing community who are already experienced with PvP, but lack a population of noobs unused to the differences between PvE and PvP to run roughshod over to demonstrate their 1337 5ki11z).

 

And I recognize that I'm biased on the subject; my experience in other MMOs is that PvP, particularly open-world PvP, is a venue for people who can't think of any other way to validate themselves than by proving their superiority using the single measure of how fast their level-capped combat monster with BiS gear can gank lowbies fresh out of the training areas.

 

The question is not "how can we make PvP more accessible?" but "How do we get more people, either already playing or new, interested in PvP?" And as long as, as @GraspingVileTerror mentioned, a dedicated PvP build in the hands of someone who knows how to play it properly can stomp all over someone new to PvP, you're going to get people going into a PvP zone, getting their ass handed to them, and deciding they're not interested in PvP. And nothing short of a major rework of PvP is going to change that. Right now, on Homecoming, the people who are interested in PvP are in PvP, and the ones who aren't... aren't. Giving people more to do while they're getting their ass kicked isn't going to make PvP more attractive to people who are uninterested in PvP.

 

 

I'm sorry you feel that way about zone pvpers. Some of us prefer the sense of danger over the chance we might get one day to wreak havoc on noobs. I joined a pvp server on classic wow for that reason-- I was a noob, and never had the chance to faceroll anyone, as I never even reached the level cap, but had a blast running away/evading the zerg whenever they appeared in zone. That's why I like zone pvp. I don't think its fair to cast aspersions on this crowd, because they are probably compelled by other motives than self-adulation if they are over the age of 25. 

 

As far as your last paragraph, yes I agree, nothing short of a major rework will have the effect of generating more interest in pvp, which I acknowledge in the original post. 

Edited July 19, 2021 by Illy

[Illy]

4 minutes ago, FrauleinMental said:

If you want to obliterate the server population, this is a way to do it.  Plenty of people on Indomitable have little interest in PvP.

 

They are on the only unofficial pvp server; I would say the fault is their own at that point. And if they are uninterested in pvp, that is fine, they would not have to pvp, but they may have to occasionally evade enemy players. Obstacles and danger are features which MMO players are more accustomed to than you think, and for that reason I think a lot of these players would prove themselves to be less fragile than you assert. 

[Glacier Peak]

If I'm reading this correctly, the suggestion is to change the way everyone else plays to match the way you want to play?

 

Nah.

[FrauleinMental]

1 minute ago, Illy said:

 

They are on the only unofficial pvp server; I would say the fault is their own at that point. And if they are uninterested in pvp, that is fine, they would not have to pvp, but they may have to occasionally evade enemy players. Obstacles and danger are features which MMO players are more accustomed to than you think, and for that reason I think a lot of these players would prove themselves to be less fragile than you assert. 

I don't assert people to be fragile.  I just have no desire to be the object of your power fantasy.

 

But if every PvP zone is empty, what makes you think making every zone a PvP zone will magically make people like it?

[Illy]

38 minutes ago, FrauleinMental said:

I don't assert people to be fragile.  I just have no desire to be the object of your power fantasy.

 

But if every PvP zone is empty, what makes you think making every zone a PvP zone will magically make people like it?

 

I'm happy to interact with people on this thread who are willing to have a discussion. Perhaps you can scroll up and look at the more reasonable and civil posters who have put  forth their opinions without insulting me for no reason. When you calm down, we can chat, but until then you can talk to yourself. 

[Illy]

52 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

If I'm reading this correctly, the suggestion is to change the way everyone else plays to match the way you want to play?

 

Nah.

 

There are multiple servers which are designed to feature different playstyles for a reason. They could create a new shard if the players on indomitable are so opposed to it. 

[Darmian]

Sports teams! Super Powered Rasslin! 

 

Seems to me that the equivalent of WWE should exist in Paragon/RI. Team building! Trash talking! RPers support their guy! Faces and Heels! It's all there for the taking! Who will raise the belt at Supersmash 5000?

 

I don't know what the hell I'm talking about.

 

It's hot.

[aethereal]

I dunno if would work, but a big passle of badges seems like it might motivate people to try out PvP enough to see if they like it.

 

I'm talking like 20+ badges that you get by doing a large variety of arena PvP activity, not just one thing that you can get by collaborating with a friend.

Edited July 19, 2021 by aethereal

[Darmian]

14 minutes ago, aethereal said:

I dunno if would work, but a big passle of badges seems like it might motivate people to try out PvP enough to see if they like it.

 

I'm talking like 20+ badges that you get by doing a large variety of arena PvP activity, not just one thing that you can get by collaborating with a friend.

I'm going to be a downer, but I see dedicated badgers grabbing a second build for PVP, getting the badges and then never coming back. I could be wrong. 

[aethereal]

Just now, Darmian said:

I'm going to be a downer, but I see dedicated badgers grabbing a second build for PVP, getting the badges and then never coming back. I could be wrong. 

 

I'm sure a large percentage would.

 

But, if someone makes a second build, does a variety of PvP actions, and hates every second of it?  Then I think we maybe should stop trying to get that person to PvP.

[Darmian]

1 minute ago, aethereal said:

 

I'm sure a large percentage would.

 

But, if someone makes a second build, does a variety of PvP actions, and hates every second of it?  Then I think we maybe should stop trying to get that person to PvP.

They already do it for Arena stuff.  They collect the exploration badges in the PVP zones, grab whatever else is needed, like Gunner and so on, or take out so many pillboxes in RV etc, and then they're out.

[Super Atom]

Trying to make PvP friendly to non-PvPers is how CoH PvP was killed the first time.

 

Let's edit a active community to be for people who don't do it. Giant brain play, worked out amazing in 2008. Oh wait, instead it killed the community and made a ton of people quit the game entirely and spoilers, PvE'ers still didn't PvP.

 

Also, what do you think Homecoming is? It's a bunch of players already. They didn't magically become better judgement makers than your average player because they can modify the game. It's already players making the decisions.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Super Atom

[Illy]

2 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

Trying to make PvP friendly to non-PvPers is how CoH PvP was killed the first time.

 

Let's edit a active community to be for people who don't do it. Giant brain play, worked out amazing in 2008. Oh wait, instead it killed the community and made a ton of people quit the game entirely and spoilers, PvE'ers still didn't PvP.

Nothing like what I suggested was attempted... Nothing even close. 

[Super Atom]

Just now, Illy said:

Nothing like what I suggested was attempted... Nothing even close. 

 

That's because it wouldn't work and the latter half already existed in the form of PvP IO's.

[Illy]

11 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

 

That's because it wouldn't work and the latter half already existed in the form of PvP IO's.

 

Your only suggestion so far was to continue to listen to the same pvp community whose suggestions have been used to tune and tweak pvp into the current state that it is. 

We'll have to agree to disagree I guess. I'm completely the opposite; I think radical changes are the only thing that save dying features in MMOs, but that's just me. 

Edited July 19, 2021 by Illy

[Super Atom]

Just now, Illy said:

 

Your best suggestion so far was to continue to listen to the same pvp community whose suggestions have been used to tune and tweak pvp into the current state that it is. 

We'll have to agree to disagree I guess. I'm completely the opposite; I think radical changes are the only thing that save dying features in MMOs, but that's just me. 

 

Radical changes literally killed it in 2008. Aside from time travel, there is nothing to be done outside of PvP events and the occasional change based on feedback from that community. If they kill it again with bad ideas to try and get people who don't like PvP to PvP and make the current PvPers quit, there will literally be no PvP left.