"Fun" is a Four-Letter Word

[Blackbird71]

3 hours ago, DrZeus said:

As far as are you splitting hairs by differentiating between fun and enjoyment?  I doubt it.  

 

Then please define the two terms in a manner that distinguishes them, because as far as the English language is concerned, they are synonymous and often used to define each other (Merriam-Webster:  fun = "someone or something that provides amusement or enjoyment").

 

If you're using them to mean two separate things, then those meanings need to be explained and agreed upon upfront in the discussion, otherwise people will continue talking past each other as they adhere to different understandings of the words.

[DoctorDitko]

There are ~7 billion ways to rate fun in games.

 

Mine is, after a game, is everyone sorry it was over? Are we high-fiveing one another and eager for the next session? Or are folks mad at one another?

 

Zero-sum games suck. Kirk voice: "I don't believe in no-win situations."

(When I wrote games, I also aimed for "Everybody learned something!" But that may or may not happen here.)

 

More than any MMO I've known, this one did all this. They avoided loot quarrels, shoehorn archetypes, "ultimate" builds, guild mandates (especially after eliminating Prestige). Creativity is rewarded, diversity is respected (if not celebrated, again c.f. Star Trek) and nobody has to spend their first week in game hunting rats.

 

There are other ways to have fun, but this game checks so many boxes for me, If it was VR, it would need to be prescription-only.

 

 

[oedipus_tex]

The original CoX era is bookmarked by specific timestamps in my life, both involving hurricanes. I played it for the first time while staying with a friend who had electricity in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. Years later, while staying with a friend for a different hurricane, I read the announcement that it was closing. 

 

More broadly, in its original run, CoX was a Saturday night choice between a real life night out at the goth/electroclash club I had gravitated to in lieu of gay bars, or ordering a pizza and spending the night leveling an alt. Both involved costumes and antics of different sorts. Escapism was probably the motivation. It's impossible to separate the game from the time period; unfortunate emo fashion choices (no I will not share pictures), the end of the Bush presidency, the first hints that we might see same sex marriage in our lifetimes, and the persistent tumult of conflict in a very conservative region of the country. All of this is probably always why my characters have always been slapstick or caricatures, basically electronic drag performances. The "city" part of "City of" is a mostly apolitical fantasy world that is an almost too-perfect reflection of American kitsch, so it was a natural place for camp and parody.
 

Also, I initially was not impressed with the game. I was a veteran of text based MUDs, and around this time had achieved my "dream" of joining the development staff of one of them. Just prior to finding CoX I had resigned after a year volunteering as the Magic Guru, having written only one new spell but having learned how to program, a skill I would go on to use to begin game modding. When CoX closed, it affected me more than the shuttering of a video game probably should. I went into developer mode, trying to bring the spirit of CoX to game after game. The real game's reappearance was a shock to me as I'm sure it was to many.

 In its second run, I'm coming to the game in a much different position. I'm much older, for one. It's also possible for me to mod the game, on a private server, which was only a dream years ago. I play on Homecoming because this development team has a great vision, stable servers, and I've always found them extremely reasonable.

I also don't know how to define "fun." For me it's always been about being able to get lost in the para-game, meaning the game itself but also the forums, MIds, and so on. And, in particular, being able to weather whatever the current climate of the real world might be, in every sense of that word.   

[Earnest Victory]

6 hours ago, Blackbird71 said:

just trying to interpret your original post

Start by reading all the words actually written there next time. 
 

 

6 hours ago, Blackbird71 said:

If you can't tell if you're having fun because you have to wait and see what the outcome is to decide if what you are doing currently is fun, then It seems to be pretty clear that your enjoyment is dependent on the outcome, and that you're entire effort at fun could be wasted if the outcome doesn't go your way, regardless of the path to get there. 

Yes, basically. Sometimes fun is like that. Pretending that fun is only 'are you enjoying this moment, yes or no' is like pretending that sadness is only when you are crying. Or worse, not pretending and actually believing that. 

[roleki]

My brain is just six different monkeys on various stimulants with their tails tied together, so forgive me if this rambles and/or doesn't make a lick of sense either in general or the context of the thread.  Honestly, it's the monkeys more than me.

When CoH went away, I spent the first few weeks or a month trying various games, never finding anything that seemed capable of holding my interest the way CoH had.  Eventually I quit trying to find a replacement game altogether, and started a new hobby - buying Lego collections off eBay/garage sales, cleaning them, sorting them, reconstituting the component sets where possible, then flipping the uninspiring sets back on eBay. 

 

At last count, I had about ~380 gallons of Lego left from that sidetrack; to put that into perspective, think of the kid in your neighborhood who had ALL the Lego sets... they probably had about 8 or 9 pounds of the stuff.  I'm sitting on ~500 pounds of it, or, about 60 spoiled-kids' worth of Lego.  It's a literal boatload of Lego, if the boat in question wasn't too big.

Anyway, when I bought that stuff - in lots of five or 10 pounds at a time - it would invariably arrive in a musty old box containing a miasma of bricks, cat hair, random colored pencils, bits of Contrux and Lincoln Logs, rubber balls, Penny Racers and so on.  After cleaning the lot, I would turn on a college/NFL game and just spend those three or 4 hours sorting Lego.  First macro (bricks, plates, slopes, Technic, etc) then micro (small bricks, medium, wide) then final (1x1 bricks, 1x2 bricks, 1x3 bricks) and so on, occasionally getting little dopamine hits from finding the black sword that only ever came in THIS set, or finding a space guy what still has a crisp logo on his torso, etc.

 

Point I am getting to is this: if it's that boring to READ about sorting Lego, imagine actually doing it. 

 

But I kept doing it, because that process of putting the brain in park and reducing the world to a PBAoE was extremely therapeutic and something that just worked for me, even if the overwhelming majority of the time the tasks were repetitive, tedious, and not what we would classically label 'enjoyable.'   As a bonus, when I was done, I had SOMETHING to show for it... if you count a couple of extra dollars and 'grounds-for-divorce' amounts of Lego as SOMETHING.

 

So now there's this thread about a video game, wondering what we think of as fun.   

 

I don't have "fun" researching the minutiae of a powerset on CoD.  It's not "fun" agonizing over whether I would benefit more from a moderate endurance discount if I slot this HERE, or if I should put that slot over here and get a small damage boost to complement all the -Res out of the secondary.  It's not "fun" crafting an Air Burst then converting it to a Touch of Lady Grey to a Reactive Defenses to a LotG 7.5% enhancement and stashing it in my base because the next character I have an idea for will need 5 of them.   It's not "fun" opening a Hero Pack, finagling that Kheldian ATO to something people actually want, catalyzing it, then dumping it on the market so I can leave placeholder bids for downlevel recipes that I can side-craft into Miracles and Steadfasts while still keeping inf on hand for impulse buys of the same.  Defeating thousands upon thousands of custom enemies in a cave is not especially "fun" - though it is a LOT like sorting Lego, with the same neuron-muting qualities that kept me sane in CoH's absence. 

 

What *IS* fun to me, is the end result of these tedious activities... I had an idea for a character, sketched it out, leveled it, equipped it just so, tested it, analyzed it, tweaked it, and now I can break it out once every week or so and melt U'Kon G'rey with it or figure out what kind of ITF I've just volunteered for with it, or just smash huge mobs of Nemesis in PI until I get a catalyst and can park the character again.  Sometimes, on a character that I felt went particularly well, I'll just open up the Enhancement screen and kind of marvel at it, like I'm Agent Smith looking at the Matrix.   

 

And that's it.  I guess I'm a destination kind of guy. 

 

The 'journey' might have been fun for me at one point, but having done everything 30 or 50 times before, I am well past that.  Amassing influence doesn't hold any appeal to me, it's a means to an end, or in this case, 50 or 60 ends.  Spending influence doesn't do it for me either, because I was at the other end of the keyboard for every mouse click that earned it, and since that time was worth something to me, I'm not apt to piss it away.  I'm here to make builds that work in my own fashion, and I do so in a manner that doesn't rely on the proficiency or availability of others.  If that doesn't jibe with the spirit of an MMO or ignores the intentions of the devs... I'm not even sorry, I'm just over here having a good time.

[DrZeus]

1 hour ago, Blackbird71 said:

If you're using them to mean two separate things, then those meanings need to be explained and agreed upon upfront in the discussion, otherwise people will continue talking past each other as they adhere to different understandings of the words.

And... they will debate it.  Mostly because people enjoy doing that.  You are trying to apply logic to the idea... but I'm not talking about logic, I'm talking about what we find in emotional research.  Logic is a great way to guess without having facts on hand, don't get me wrong, but it's no substitute.  Prediction never implies post hoc knowledge.

 

And... during research you don't have to establish the operational definitions of every term beforehand.  Because ultimately... you can't.  If I use Embarrassment and Humiliation ... I could try to distinguish between the two all I want.  But that distinction won't actually alter any of the results.  When I ask someone "In X situation, on a scale of 1 to 10, how embarrassed do you feel"... and then "how humiliated do you feel"... the fact is... they give different answers.  It is the person... the subject who decides they're not synonymous, not the experimenter.  Which is fine... we're studying the participants, not the experimenters.

So my guess... based upon years of reading emotional research literature... is that "on a scale of 1 to 10, how fun is it" and "on a scale of 1 to 10, how much do I enjoy it"... would get two completely different responses.  They'd be correlated to be sure.  But they'd get different responses.  I'm sure a confirmatory factor analysis would put them in the same category, and show them as distinctly different too.

 

 

It is interesting someone above said that in order to really figure this stuff out, NCSoft would have to hire some full time psychologists.  They almost did.  I only had my master's at the time, but I did interview and made the short list for being hired on at one point... due to my pitching that psychological analysis would be utilitarian in this regard.  I'm not sure I would have been a good fit at the time, but at this point (doctoral education behind me and a lot more knowledge under my belt) I'd think a game company with an MMO would be a fool not to hire people like me to study what people want in their game and why... and then design how to deliver it.

[Blackbird71]

25 minutes ago, DrZeus said:

And... they will debate it.  Mostly because people enjoy doing that.  You are trying to apply logic to the idea... but I'm not talking about logic, I'm talking about what we find in emotional research.  Logic is a great way to guess without having facts on hand, don't get me wrong, but it's no substitute.  Prediction never implies post hoc knowledge.

 

And... during research you don't have to establish the operational definitions of every term beforehand.  Because ultimately... you can't.  If I use Embarrassment and Humiliation ... I could try to distinguish between the two all I want.  But that distinction won't actually alter any of the results.  When I ask someone "In X situation, on a scale of 1 to 10, how embarrassed do you feel"... and then "how humiliated do you feel"... the fact is... they give different answers.  It is the person... the subject who decides they're not synonymous, not the experimenter.  Which is fine... we're studying the participants, not the experimenters.

So my guess... based upon years of reading emotional research literature... is that "on a scale of 1 to 10, how fun is it" and "on a scale of 1 to 10, how much do I enjoy it"... would get two completely different responses.  They'd be correlated to be sure.  But they'd get different responses.  I'm sure a confirmatory factor analysis would put them in the same category, and show them as distinctly different too.

 

 

It is interesting someone above said that in order to really figure this stuff out, NCSoft would have to hire some full time psychologists.  They almost did.  I only had my master's at the time, but I did interview and made the short list for being hired on at one point... due to my pitching that psychological analysis would be utilitarian in this regard.  I'm not sure I would have been a good fit at the time, but at this point (doctoral education behind me and a lot more knowledge under my belt) I'd think a game company with an MMO would be a fool not to hire people like me to study what people want in their game and why... and then design how to deliver it.

 

We're not talking about surveys though.  In a discussion like this, not defining the key terms upfront is how you end up in endless circles of arguments, as if people are using the same words with different meanings, they will never reach any kind of agreement.

 

In the absence of any such definitions, I have to fall back on standard accepted English language definitions, and according to those, "fun" and "enjoyment" are synonyms, and therefore trying to separate them is splitting some very fine hairs.  To claim that it is not requires different definitions.

[roleki]

35 minutes ago, DrZeus said:

It is interesting someone above said that in order to really figure this stuff out, NCSoft would have to hire some full time psychologists.  They almost did.  I only had my master's at the time, but I did interview and made the short list for being hired on at one point... due to my pitching that psychological analysis would be utilitarian in this regard.  I'm not sure I would have been a good fit at the time, but at this point (doctoral education behind me and a lot more knowledge under my belt) I'd think a game company with an MMO would be a fool not to hire people like me to study what people want in their game and why... and then design how to deliver it.

 

Not to derail, but I was part of the verrry long Alpha/Beta of Fortnite, and it felt like they had done exactly what you suggested, except instead of focusing on the top two or three answers, they tried to stuff EVERY 'want' into the core game.  It was huge in places, unwieldy at times, fun in a general sense, and had the potential to be somewhat deep... but then they just shoehorned PUBG into it, and nobody even knows Save The World even exists.

 

  

4 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

 

We're not talking about surveys though.  In a discussion like this, not defining the key terms upfront is how you end up in endless circles of arguments, as if people are using the same words with different meanings, they will never reach any kind of agreement.

 

In the absence of any such definitions, I have to fall back on standard accepted English language definitions, and according to those, "fun" and "enjoyment" are synonyms, and therefore trying to separate them is splitting some very fine hairs.  To claim that it is not requires different definitions.

 

That would have to be one heck of an abridged dictionary to consider "fun" and "enjoyment" synonymous.  Consider the following two sentences, neither of which a living human would phrase as such but I did so here in an effort to avoid splitting even more hair...

1:  Schindler's List was not a fun movie, but I derived enjoyment from watching it.  

2:  Schindler's List was not a movie that provided enjoyment, but I had fun watching it.  

 

Fun and enjoyment are NOT the same thing.

Edited July 23, 2021 by roleki

[DrZeus]

48 minutes ago, roleki said:

 

Not to derail, but I was part of the verrry long Alpha/Beta of Fortnite, and it felt like they had done exactly what you suggested, except instead of focusing on the top two or three answers, they tried to stuff EVERY 'want' into the core game.  It was huge in places, unwieldy at times, fun in a general sense, and had the potential to be somewhat deep... but then they just shoehorned PUBG into it, and nobody even knows Save The World even exists.

 

  

 

That would have to be one heck of an abridged dictionary to consider "fun" and "enjoyment" synonymous.  Consider the following two sentences, neither of which a living human would phrase as such but I did so here in an effort to avoid splitting even more hair...

1:  Schindler's List was not a fun movie, but I derived enjoyment from watching it.  

2:  Schindler's List was not a movie that provided enjoyment, but I had fun watching it.  

 

Fun and enjoyment are NOT the same thing.

For your first point... yeah, you really have to be careful with how much you ask.  It would be great if we could just ask everyone 500 questions... we'd cover everything.  But it would be so long we wouldn't get honest answers (people just click through).  There's a happy medium there, and a lot of science behind how to make the perfect survey.

 

And... while your second point is obviously correct...  I didn't want to bother get into it.  I don't care to argue semantics, and blackbird is specifically saying "argue semantics with me".  Bird has an understandable reason for it... but again... I don't think this is a thing you can apply logic or argumentation to.  There's simply no need, and to do so is to miss the important stuff... facts.

Blackbird.... The fact is... it doesn't matter if we're not doing a survey HERE.  Because when humans are given surveys... they respond in a particular way that proves they do consider the two things different.    So to say that they don't... and to try to apply logic to WHY they might not... it just really missing the fact in front of our faces.  And honestly... scientists don't argue why you should beleive science.  If someone doesn't want to... it's either because they don't understand it... or they just don't want to (often out of fear).  I don't talk people out of that.  To a point I try to make them understand it... but only to a point.

Also.. keep in mind that humans have variability.  If asked two questions, one with enjoyment and one with fun... perhaps you would answer the same with each one.  On every subject.  You'd be the exception to the general rule, but hey, humans are all different.  Just know that if you do work this way, most other people do not.  That's the first rule of statistics: they don't apply to individuals (and you're an individual)

 

[Crystal Dragon]

I might have skimmed past a few larger wordy posts just to remark a few points in the thread that I've noticed to be reoccurring. (No offend to anyone that had responded with thoughtful posts, I respect that, but have a very limited attention span for reading at times.)

• "Fun" itself as a term, is subjective to opinion and bias of the individual finding enjoyment.
• Enjoyment in a game, is multispectrumed, and can't necessarily be filtered into a single category or factor but can be split into multiple facets in composition. 
• To compile such a composition of "fun" aspects could lead to an absolute monstrosity of a game, but taking elements in small parts to improve on an already established game isn't always a bad move either.

Last but not least, I thank everyone for contributing to the thread discussion, and thank you all for keeping cool heads about it. Sometimes picking apart what makes fun of one's self can be a very definite form of self reflection and therapeutic in itself.

[GraspingVileTerror]

@roleki beat me to it, but yes:  People derive a sense of enjoyment from -sad- things that they definitely do not describe as "fun."  This has been the lynch-pin in many versions of that particular discussion in the past.  And a game does not need to be fun to be enjoyable.  Not everyone will agree with that, but since -some- people hold that to be a self-evident truth, the subjective nature of fun and enjoyment manifest that truth.

 

It's not my intent to be rude here, but I'm not sure I can address this without being blunt:

I really think you missed the entire point of this thread, @Blackbird71.

This isn't meant to be a debate or an argument.

The purpose of this thread was a call for individuals to share their points of view and insights in regard to their personal and subjective opinions on the concept of "fun," as it relates to City of Heroes in particular.  We've seem great examples of this, and I really want to thank all of the active participants for their support in this.  We've also seen how different professional disciplines shape our various views on the process of defining "fun," with @DrZeus' perspective being one familiar to me from my own professional perspective.

 

My hypothesis was that we would see a lot of people giving significantly different answers, but all of those answers are valid due to the personal nature of the question.

And the point of that?

To emphasize to members of this community who may not have realized yet, but "fun" isn't universally defined, even if a dictionary or two have a definition written down (which, have been subject to change, historically, so it's not like that's a viable definition either).  Additionally, "fun" is not an ideal target for developers to pursue in regard to work they're doing on a game.  ESPECIALLY an MMO.  Especially -THIS- MMO!

 

Fun is an absolutely important metric for feedback, though.  So, I don't want anyone to feel like they can't talk about their own personal experiences with the game in that context.

I only wanted to illustrate how it's not terribly effective to brandish "fun" as if it were an objective fact or universal motivation.

In fact, we've already had at least TWO participants in this thread admit that this game is decidedly NOT fun for them, but that doesn't stop them from playing, as they have other important motivators keeping them present.

 

The Homecoming Servers have an official mission statement to put effort toward being welcoming to everyone, and to make City feel like home.

Their mission statement isn't "to make City fun."  

And, yes; a "fun City" is absolutely the most welcoming City for some people.

But it's not the sole metric by which we measure this game's importance.

And that's crucially important to remember.

 

 

 

And, to @tidge; I get the allure of trying to express something in a witty way.  Goodness knows I try (and fail) to inject some sardonics in to my posts here and there.  So, I'm not going to pretend to be guiltless, but there's a chance your criticism came across as needlessly aggressive due to a lack of context in your post.

Some levity is helpful on occasion.  The song lyric post, I think, fit that purpose better.  I believe all the members of this community (again, myself included) could stand to be a little more even-handed when criticizing others.

And, to that end, if I overstepped with this bit, please feel free to let me know.  I'll try to do better next time.

[Blackbird71]

21 minutes ago, GraspingVileTerror said:

To emphasize to members of this community who may not have realized yet, but "fun" isn't universally defined, even if a dictionary or two have a definition written down (which, have been subject to change, historically, so it's not like that's a viable definition either).  

 

Fun is an absolutely important metric for feedback, though.  

 

One thing that really bothers me about threads like this is the frequent self-contradictions.  In order to mean anything at all, a "metric" must be measurable, and in order to be measurable, it must be clearly defined.  Yet you insist that your "metric" cannot be defined.  The cognitive dissonance here is astounding.

[DoctorDitko]

So, cognitive dissonance isn't fun? Followers of Eris Esoteric would beg to disagree!

 

"This statement is false."

[Darmian]

I'm having thoughts about this re cultural background.  I have had a hell of a lot of "fun" at wakes.  Great craic as my lot say.  It can be very much the nuances that bind or divide us in many ways.

 

[tidge]

9 hours ago, Blackbird71 said:

 

In order to mean anything at all, a "metric" must be measurable, and in order to be measurable, it must be clearly defined.  Yet you insist that your "metric" cannot be defined.  The cognitive dissonance here is astounding.

 

I propose that fun be measured by the consumption of Awaken/Bounce Back/Restoration.

[Col. Kernel]

On 7/22/2021 at 1:45 PM, Earnest Victory said:

And if the answer is "I literally can't tell yet"? 

Some enjoyment is conditional on the outcome of an activity. It can retroactively turn to dust if, for example, your time is wasted. Or it could crystallise if it leads to a particularly incredible moment. 

Even had the leadup to both those moments were exactly the same, in one you might have fun and n the other you wouldn't. Trying to dumb it down just means your view is too ill considered to actually apply. 

I'll stick with the 'over'thinkers, thanks.

 

I'll disagree with you.  Here are 2 personal examples.

 

1)  I do HIIT (brief but grueling workout with a trainer) twice a week.  Do I enjoy it?  No.  Then why do I continue?  Because I want the end result, obviously.

 

2)  I ride a recumbent trike for extended distances.  It makes me hot, sweaty, and generates fatigue, much like #1, only it takes a lot longer.  What's my goal?  I don't have one*, I ride for enjoyment.

 

* Ok, so I do have a goal.  I'm trying to work up riding a Metric Century (100 km, roughly 65 mi.)  However riding so I can ride longer isn't exactly what I would consider to be an end result, like running a Dr. Q (WST) for 244 Merits.  I want to ride longer because I enjoy the activity.

[DrZeus]

9 hours ago, Blackbird71 said:

 

One thing that really bothers me about threads like this is the frequent self-contradictions.  In order to mean anything at all, a "metric" must be measurable, and in order to be measurable, it must be clearly defined.  Yet you insist that your "metric" cannot be defined.  The cognitive dissonance here is astounding.

I'm not sure where the cognitive dissonance is... perhaps you could be using the word incorrectly.  (typically happens when words and actions are not aligned, and in this case... there are no actions to align, so the term cognitive dissonance isn't really applicable)

 

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say your personality involves... some extremely lawful tendencies.  (to mix both psych and D&D).

The metric they're using is measurable.  Just not being measured in this instance, how it would be measured was already spoken of.  And it is clear that most people in the discussion seem to understand the definition - and have tried several times to explain it to you.  I thought their analogies were quite good.  The issue isn't with them.. it's with your lack of understanding on what they're saying.  They seem to be understanding just fine.

 

The entire point of communication is to get across a certain message... and to receive it.  People have tried to re-explain what they're talking about (their job as a sender).  You as a receiver might just not be able to understand what they're saying.  It happens sometimes.

[Naraka]

I find fun in many ways (from bouncing around random ideas, to creating some obtuse concept character and picking powers/using powers to play out that concept) but a probably unique amount of fun I get is from solving puzzles without being handed the solution.

 

In the context of this game, it's more or less approaching combat or teams and then adapting to the situation to fit in or understand how to best take down a target/group or to understand the mechanisms of how the enemy fights. In most games, it's learning about a class/job/powerset through observation and trial/error, even some of the minutiae of weaker aspects of a game's mechanics that are often skipped or deemed as useless. Because doing so might give insight on how something was designed and overall purpose or concept. It also gives a wider perspective on various ideas to improve certain aspects of a game and it's mechanics.

 

In games, we can afford to make mistakes and solve problems through trial and error, unlike in real life. I feel part of that prerogative is rarely exercised in gaming or not respected so the amount of enjoyment players could get from accomplishing things becomes muted. 

 

Being among the newbies migrating to FFXIV, I find the opportunity for solving the complexities of the encounters as well as the complexities of your own job is alive and well partly to do with players respecting that sense of discovery and problem solving. 

[Naraka]

On 7/22/2021 at 9:36 PM, Blackbird71 said:

 

Seriously, if your idea of fun is so tenuous that any past enjoyment could be instantly nullified and become retroactively unfun because of some prospective future event, and if that dampens your ability to enjoy the game in the present, then you're in the wrong hobby.

 

Big "payoff" moments are great, but when you're gaming in a medium that could be (and has been) cancelled at any time, then if you can't enjoy the journey for the steps along the way then you will always be disappointed in the end, and you will never have fun, so best not to waste your time now.

 

I'm not trying to be mean or judgmental here; just offering some advice that is hopefully helpful.

 

I like to attribute this to the prolific "critic culture" we have that is so rampant. Everyone is so hellbent on rating everything, a 7 out of 10, four starts, 44%, S-rank, ect.  The individual aspects start to only ever matter as a part of the whole.

 

Not crapping on critics, as they provide a service to the indecisive, but everyone doesn't need to be a critic lol. You can enjoy some stuff, not like other stuff and go about your day. You don't have to question your present cognitive dissonance on the quality of everything constantly. 

 

FYI, I'm agreeing with the quoted post there. Sometimes, people are far more critical than necessary maybe because the entertainment and luxury industries have asked us to be but if we're being frank, needing everything to climax to some "payoff" to be enjoyable is an illusion as reality often doesn't confirm to that outcome.

[golstat2003]

17 hours ago, Blackbird71 said:

 

One thing that really bothers me about threads like this is the frequent self-contradictions.  In order to mean anything at all, a "metric" must be measurable, and in order to be measurable, it must be clearly defined.  Yet you insist that your "metric" cannot be defined.  The cognitive dissonance here is astounding.

 

I'd be careful in trying to boil things that deal with actual human emotion down to a metric. I don't think that was the point of the thread.

[golstat2003]

6 hours ago, Naraka said:

I find fun in many ways (from bouncing around random ideas, to creating some obtuse concept character and picking powers/using powers to play out that concept) but a probably unique amount of fun I get is from solving puzzles without being handed the solution.

 

In the context of this game, it's more or less approaching combat or teams and then adapting to the situation to fit in or understand how to best take down a target/group or to understand the mechanisms of how the enemy fights. In most games, it's learning about a class/job/powerset through observation and trial/error, even some of the minutiae of weaker aspects of a game's mechanics that are often skipped or deemed as useless. Because doing so might give insight on how something was designed and overall purpose or concept. It also gives a wider perspective on various ideas to improve certain aspects of a game and it's mechanics.

 

In games, we can afford to make mistakes and solve problems through trial and error, unlike in real life. I feel part of that prerogative is rarely exercised in gaming or not respected so the amount of enjoyment players could get from accomplishing things becomes muted. 

 

Being among the newbies migrating to FFXIV, I find the opportunity for solving the complexities of the encounters as well as the complexities of your own job is alive and well partly to do with players respecting that sense of discovery and problem solving. 

 

I play both this game and FFXIV.

 

When I want to have fun just mindless running through mobs and living out the superhero power fantasy (especially after a long day of IT QA, where you most assuredly CANNOT do things mindlessly), I come here.

 

When I want a more modern mmo approach (where I have to move in certain ways to avoid certain bad actions --pre-moving or moving just in time or pattern versus the "yellow" markings on the floor that indicate a big bosses major attack is about to land; or do a series of actions to end an encounter faster--for instance BLM rotation to get max dps) I play FFXIV.

 

Sometimes you want the fun of complexity (FFXIV / WoW encounters). Sometimes you want the fun of simplicity. (COH / Genshin Impact)

 

EDIT: For those who don't know BLM, is Black Mage in FFXIV (arguably the job with the highest potential dps in the game), and there are certain rotations you have to get down (with appropriate level of spell speed) to maximize the dps that BLM can do. Thankfully there are no dps meters unlike WoW, so you have much room to learn without folks yelling at you when you get it wrong :p)

Edited July 24, 2021 by golstat2003

[Crystal Dragon]

I play quite a few different games, but City of Heroes has taken it's front seat with me ever since HC brought it to the public and opened its doors. What I think is fun, may not be fun for someone else, but in groups it can be entertaining to read and watch how things evolve in written format. I don't look to push for progression, or engage with the pvp scenes, because it's not fun for me. Focusing on minimaxing/DPs counts/attendance points, all of that is wow speak, things I left behind more than six years ago and I'd like to leave buried in the grave that is that games history. I did my part, I got to a point in wow that I was ranked in the top 50 hunters worldwide, during Wrath of the Lich King, and I had a great time finding an RP on there, but that time is done and over with. My focus has shifted from raiding and working with large numbers, to focusing on the little things, the little matters that make the environment, and the game ambiance in itself different and more welcoming for any level of gaming experience. 

 

I get the importance of finding something entertaining and engaging and rewarding and I feel like some people completely miss that point with this thread of discussion and are choosing to cherry pick, and pull apart others play styles to tell them they are wrong, when they are not. How one person finds enjoyment, doesn't mean you will have the same level of enjoyment as they will do the same practice and methods, but that doesn't mean you can harass someone over it and try to derail the thread in itself. I'm not picking out names, they know who they are and honestly need to take a step back to recognize that this isn't a thread for argument or debate, but rather discuss what IS fun, in fundamentals, rather than taking it as a lead to attack one another. That's not what we are here for. We exist, we share a game world together, and we engage in any number of ways within this game world. Let's take a closer critical look at that, and see where the differences lay in what each of us determine fun and how we decide what is fun for us as a person rather than judge others based on their play styles and preferences for gaming.

 

Honestly, I like reading philosophical threads like this. It's interesting to read other peoples points of views without the shades of "This is the right way, and nothing can change my mind" sort of lens on.

Edited July 24, 2021 by CrystalDragon
Correcting grammar.

[GraspingVileTerror]

There was a lovely quote I saw recently which I think might sum up what you're getting at there, @CrystalDragon:

"It is not our differences that divide us.  It is our inability to recognize, accept, and celebrate those differences."  -Audre Lorde

While the origin of that quote is in regard to something quite a bit more important than our little gaming community here, I do think it's a beautiful sentiment that is absolutely applicable!

[MunkiLord]

Fun makes me smile, I think that is a good general way to describe the word to me. Going into a mob and blowing it up is fun, this makes me smile. Barely surviving a +3x8 mob of Carnies is fun. Playing Hades puts a big ass smile on my face. In most cases I see fun and joy as two sides of the same coin.

 

Fun by itself isn't enough to keep me engaged for too long though. I need something to work toward. First it was the soft cap, then soloing various TF, another build, X amount of influence, etc. For AC Odyssey I wanted to get every vantage point, Hades all the achievements, etc. Mix in fun of course, but I personally like that long term goal that requires repetition and can sometimes be tedious.

[Blackbird71]

10 hours ago, DrZeus said:

I'm not sure where the cognitive dissonance is... perhaps you could be using the word incorrectly.  (typically happens when words and actions are not aligned, and in this case... there are no actions to align, so the term cognitive dissonance isn't really applicable)

 

 

The phrase can also be applied to two contradictory thoughts or statements.

 

10 hours ago, DrZeus said:

The metric they're using is measurable. 

 

A metric cannot be measurable (and therefore, is not a metric) if it is not defined.  Others have suggested that "fun" and related terms mean different things, contrary to their standard definitions.  This means those terms are currently undefined.

My whole point was that if you are going to claim that "fun" and "enjoyment" are two separate things, when standard English definitions make them synonyms, then definitions need to be provided for the discussion at hand to continue.  Otherwise, claiming they are different is, in fact, splitting hairs.

 

And now I think there has been quite enough hair splitting over the topic of splitting hairs.

Edited July 24, 2021 by Blackbird71