Regen and Incarnates

[00Troy00]

Is it possible with all of the incarnate bonuses, to make Regen into the damned near unlikable machine that it used to be back before Diminishing Returns reared its ugly head?

[Haijinx]

No

[SomeGuy]

3 hours ago, Haijinx said:

No

 

[ihatethewind]

No

[macskull]

I'm going to be different and say... yes but with that same assistance pretty much every other armor set in the game will still be better. Hell, you could completely revert every nerf to Regen since the beginning of time and it would still be a subpar set by today's standards.

Edited September 12, 2021 by macskull

[DreadShinobi]

2 hours ago, macskull said:

I'm going to be different and say... yes but with that same assistance pretty much every other armor set in the game will still be better. Hell, you could completely revert every nerf to Regen since the beginning of time and it would still be a subpar set by today's standards.

Pretty much this. Regen is currently in a state where no miraculous IO build, set combination, playstyle, or incarnate choice will ever save it from the current state that it is in.

 

Incarnates are accessible to every set. A shield defense scrapper with rebirth will be more survivable, deal more damage, and hold aggro better than anything you could hope for from a regen scrapper. You have absolutely zero benefit by choosing /regen - this should absolutely be a higher priority than it currently is in how patches are rolling out and where attention is being given.

[Maelwys]

Not on a Scrapper, no.

 

Regeneration on a SENTINEL is considerably better though.

 

You can certainly IO-out Regen Scrappers, and if you pair them with a primary like Broadsword or Katana then you can get very decent levels of regeneration and resistance whilst hitting the "59%" Incarnate content defence softcap. But that level of performance has very little to do with your secondary powerset. Almost everything regeneration brings to the table, willpower can do better (hitting the scrapper maximum HP cap is a little easier on regen) - but hey, it's still thematic. Even if you'll never actually be "the best you are at what you do" (TM)... 😉

[SomeGuy]

OK. Fine, I'll serious talk.

 

Regen out of the box on just SOs is good when compared to other sets when built to the same standard.

 

But

 

The rest of the game exists. Regen scales so incredibly bad with sets that it is laughable. It slides to dead last incredibly fast when sets are involved. And once you go no-holds barred and influence is no factor? You don't consider regen.  You want to. You get mad you considered it, but realistically can't. But you don't roll regen.

 

The first character I did set bonuses was my claws/regen scrapper. My second was a DB/SR scrapper. After that a ELM/SD brute followed by a SS/FA brute.

 

The ability to PLAY sr, sd, or fa was completely mind blowing compared to the "omg i'm dying click click click" style of x/regen. The set just doesn't give enough base defense or resistance to be worth anything, and everyone knows by now that HP/S is freaking useless for sustained survivabilty (if you disagree with this you're not pushing your character). Not to mention, the way regen survives? It has no protection from being debuffed in game. It doesn't even get that. Even then it would be horrible. HP/S is nice when you take a calculated risk that you can take that hit and be fine. It is NOT something you rely on to out-live your target/s. It has no layered ability to survive and it gives no extra boost to DPS. It has zero pros and only cons compered to other sets. WP has layered abilities to survive and is really the closest (if not THE closest) to old-school regen set-and-forget. Rad armor has great resistances and good HP/s and REALLY good stamina management. And it get's a +dmg when meltdown is active. Bio armor is squishy as hell, but it absolutely makes up for it in spades because of how much raw firepower it can bring. EVERY armor set except regen has a strong list of pros. Dark, invincibilty, energy aura, ice, you name it. The only thing you get out of regen is a strong example of your primary, and hopefully you enjoy playing it. Cause regen doesn't give you any benefit from it.

 

I get regen is a legacy set we'd love to see get love. But Super Strength is a legacy set and it's pretty obvious it's not getting that nerf rectified either.

[DreadShinobi]

Ironically enhancing your regen via IOs can be amazingly beneficial on most anything but regen.

[Maelwys]

To throw a few actual numbers at it... back in the "Olden Days" Pre-ED, you could six-slot things:

+ Instant Healing is +600% (Unenhanceable) +200% (Enhanceable).
6-slotted (Pre ED) that would have worked out at: +1199.6% Regen.
 

+ Integration is +50% (Unenhanceable) +100% (Enhanceable)
6-slotted (Pre ED) that would have worked out at: +349.8% Regen.
 

+ Fast Healing is +75% (Enhanceable)
6-slotted (Pre ED) that would have worked out at: +224.85% Regen.
 

+ "Health" wasn't a factor unless you took the fitness pool, so typically on top of this you'd just have the 100% Base Regeneration that everyone gets.
 

+ "Dull Pain" you could *just barely* get "perma" by 6-slotting it for recharge; which meant it granted +40% Maximum HP.
With accolades, you can bring that up to 2142 HP (Scrapper cap is 2409 HP)
 

So a pimped-out Pre-ED Regen Scrapper would have been sitting at about 1874.25% Regen total, applied to 2142HP.
That works out at a grand total of 167.2901 HP/Second
(Base regeneration is 5% HP every 12s. Extra regen shortens the time between ticks. So it's 2142.17*0.05=107.1085 HP regenerated every 12/1874.25%=0.640256 seconds)

Admittedly, power values will have changed a bit over time from patch to patch even leaving aside ED... but that's a rough ballpark number.



Now to give a few very rough modern-day comparisons... 

(i) My Kat/Regen's i24 build has capped (2409.52) HP and normally regenerates 71.25 HP/Second. (Plus a little extra from Panacea etc). When Instant Healing is active (roughly 50% uptime), that rises to 172 HP/Second. However they also have softcapped Melee Defence and between 50%-60% S/L Damage Resistance (depending on their current HP level) before incarnates. 
 

(ii) My SS/WP Tanker's i24 build has 3411.46 HP (Tanker Cap is 3534) and with one foe inside of RTTC Range, it regenerates 140.24 HP/Second. However they also have softcapped Typed Defence to everything except Psionic and hardcapped (90%) S/L Resistance.

So in terms of raw regeneration rate, modern-day scrappers probably still can't meet the old pre-ED performance values; as even WP Tankers will struggle to reach it. However, in terms of actual Damage Mitigation (Defence, Resistance, Absorption) and Damage Output (Set Bonuses, Procs, Incarnates, etc) the modern-day equivalents are miles ahead.

Edited September 12, 2021 by Maelwys

[macskull]

10 hours ago, Maelwys said:

Not on a Scrapper, no.

 

Regeneration on a SENTINEL is considerably better though.

 

You can certainly IO-out Regen Scrappers, and if you pair them with a primary like Broadsword or Katana then you can get very decent levels of regeneration and resistance whilst hitting the "59%" Incarnate content defence softcap. But that level of performance has very little to do with your secondary powerset. Almost everything regeneration brings to the table, willpower can do better (hitting the scrapper maximum HP cap is a little easier on regen) - but hey, it's still thematic. Even if you'll never actually be "the best you are at what you do" (TM)... 😉

Regen on Sentinels is absolutely better than the version the melee ATs get but as far as Sentinel secondaries go it's still not great. Granted, Sentinel secondaries are really weird...

[Krazie Ivan]

sorta?
...on avg, players are better than pre-ED, Enh are better, builds are better, and most newer sets are better. the holes and issues in Regen were exposed by all that creep, and even magnified, as other power sets benefit more from synergy with Enh-set bonuses + all the various boosters + Incarns. as a result, gameplay itself has reached new highs that peak pre-ED/nerfs Regen wouldn't have drempt possible.

so, Regen was never "unkillable" -far from it. but at the time you could run an avg Regen build & out-perform other sets with avg builds, so it earned a pair of rose-tinted glasses (or is it FotM tastebuds?).

imo, Regen can still out-perform other sets with avg builds... it just takes a truly exceptional build & player now. all equal, it can survive more than WP, but none of the other sets. not even saying this as a "get gud like me, noob" self-aggrandizing thing. that type of builder/player isn't me anymore, as reaction speed diminished with age & i've forgotten so much game-mechanic info from not playing for a long time.

wait, am i becoming Regen then? surpassed by newer human versions who synergize better with new tech of the world & make my old accomplishments appear less than what i remember them to be? is Regen the old man yelling about the Golden Era of hip-hop, how there use to be social & legal penalties for false advertising, and how it just wants some damn peace & quiet at home? ...i need to go lie down, next to the dead Regen chars.

[kelika2]

Even with IH and regen incarnate you can still get burst down.  max hp too.

went with barrier like i do on most every alt because not getting hit and taking less damage just outweighs regen

then i just stopped making regens

then i stopped making scrappers

 

90% willpower brutes over here (fiery aura excluded)

[SomeGuy]

15 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

Even with IH and regen incarnate you can still get burst down.  max hp too.

went with barrier like i do on most every alt because not getting hit and taking less damage just outweighs regen

then i just stopped making regens

then i stopped making scrappers

 

90% willpower brutes over here (fiery aura excluded)

This sounds soooo eerily similar to how I dealt with it. Fought tooth and nail to make it work. Slowly but surely stopped making regens. Still love scrappers though. I'll roll anything as long as it's fun.

 

But you did remind me of something. I remember when WP and DB were introduced in the same issue (there are a LOT of abandoned db/wp scraps now). Over time, I would think how I would fix regen. And it became clear to me they just said "screw it" and made another set. Introducing, Willpower! It's a solid set. Set and forget like old-school regen. Layers of different types of survivability. It's a very good set at what it does. Like, Invincibility got nerfed HARD, but it got rebalanced REALLY well. Willpower seems to be made at the attempt to do a good rebalance to regen. Regen is the only legacy melee armor set that is just...bad. Like, if Willpower didn't exist, sure. Regen. But Willpower does exist. So, I really scratch my head at anyone that goes out of their way to roll Regen knowing Willpower exists.

Edited September 15, 2021 by SomeGuy

[Bill Z Bubba]

If I was forced to delete 2 of my 3 BZBs, I'd end up keeping the scrapper as things stand right now.

[Koopak]

Oh wow a regen thread i missed, now I know iv been busy! Hey guys!

*cracks knuckles in preparation for usual essays*

Jokes aside I do feel the issues with Regen are grossly over stated. Regen could definitely use some love but its far from the dead set its often made out to be. Personally it seems to me that there are two core reasons for this, and they both are functions of player misinformation. Yes I'm saying that most people are probably playing the set 'wrong', but bare with me.

Whenever I see Regen discussions, the detractors always zero in on the same points, two of which are "hp/s is bad" and "pre-nerf regen was godly" and these, to me, show a disconnect with both the reality of game mechanics and the present state of the set compared to its past. This thread actually gets closer to openly discussing the second one, the rose tinted glasses for Regen, pre-nerf, so we will start there because i am a wind bag with nothing better to do. Besides getting work done.

The goggles! They do nothing!

Regen was slapped with a triple whammy, in a handful of updates it got directly or indirectly nerfed 3 times, and in the process tumbled from its position as king. Often when this happens in any game, the nerfed thing is seen as now 'bad' regardless of its actual performance, and i think wed struggle to find good data on that at the time. The real issue here however comes from the shape that those nerfs took, in particular, Instant Healing. By changing Instant Healing from a toggle to a click power, the set was fundamentally altered. Nerf, Buff, these terms matter less than CHANGED.

Prior to the changes, Regen was seen as powerful because it was set and forget with a panic button in the form of MoG (often skipped due to discomfort with the HP crash and Regen shutdown it applied) and a click heal in Reconstruction, and one permable click buff in Dull Pain. This is actually pretty common, many sets have a near identical configuration of 1 click heal, 1 T9 durability click, and a bunch of toggles and autos. Instant Healing changed the set to require proactive and reactive use of it to mitigate periods of increased damage, this shift to an active play armor, was further support by changed to MoG in which now a days the health penalties are removed, but the duration is reduced from 30 seconds to a mere 15.

This means that Regen is now an active play set, you cannot build it to perform at its best with a passive build. Attempting to build Regen as a passive play set is setting yourself up for failure. While you can in theory slot up with Leadership, Fighting, Jumping and load up on resistance and defense sets, you will never get the set to perform as well as other passive play sets doing so. This is part of why there's this default response of "just go Willpower" as its is a high regeneration rate passive set that you can just toggle up and forget all about it.

As an active set, Regen benefits the most from two things, recharge, and more click powers. Blasters and other non armor ATs often combine multiple powers in order to create a defensive chain that allows them to maintain scrapper like durability (obviously scrappers are tougher) and this logic can be applied to active play armor sets. This is why the highest performing Regen builds often focus on picking up synergistic pool powers such as Unrelenting, Rune of Protection, Unleash Potential, and the ever popular Shadow Meld, along with Haste and lots of recharge slotting. At the end of the day, Regen requires you to be present, to fight against that green bar dropping into the red actively, rather than just toggling up and maybe clicking a heal or a panic button when things get tight, then back to your rotation. If that's not your style, and you want the old school set and forget Regen? I get that, and yeah Willpower does it better, and yeah i kinda miss it too, but I wouldn't trade this active playstyle for anything personally.

Hurr Hurr green bar go burr....

Now to address the issue of "hp/s is bad" this is... partly true, but mostly wrong. Lets explore why its partly true first. Regeneration heals damage done, which means you have to take damage first, if that damage comes faster than your HP/s, then your health trends down, all well and good. The issue comes from Effective Health and Resisted Health, terms sadly under used in meta discussions, but highly useful. Your Effective Health is your max hp, multiplied by the applicable damage resistance and defense, your Resisted Health, is the same minus the defense. Regen as a set, lacks in both categories due to low base resistances and defenses. While Dull Pain has little trouble bringing an IOed out scrapper to the HP cap, most other sets can still get within a 35% margin or better and the basics of multiplicative math means that resistance and defense have huge impacts on Effective Health and Resisted Health, and regeneration, hp/s, has no impact what so ever. This means that any other set will have higher Effective Health and Resisted Health, which is why Regen is uniquely vulnerable to alpha strikes, when all the enemies use strong attacks at once or in rapid succession. Regen can, without effort to compensate, just be smacked down the ground suddenly and without room to react, a weakness most sets do not share.

That's pretty damning right? Well here's where things reverse a bit. Effective Health and Resisted Health have companions, Effective Regeneration and Resisted Regeneration, and these values matter for EVERYONE. Effective Regeneration is the hit points per seconds you heal, multiplied by resistance and defense. Resisted Regeneration is, you guessed it, the same minus the defense part. This is where Regen makes up lost ground, because you see, these values ALSO represent the amount of pre-mitigated damage you can take before your health begins to trend down, and no one has better base numbers to multiply than Regen does. Some sets can get close in certain situations to what Regen manages in raw hp/s while just using Integration and passive play, but the second you slap one of your click powers, Regen leaves all others in the dust. This works better than the Effective Health issue because instead of a 35% margin, we are usually talking about other sets struggling to hit even 40% of what Instant Healing can manage, meaning as long as you aren't one shot, you are usually able to stand up to significantly more abuse than expected. This is why Regen has that "immortal or dead" feel to it where your health either doesn't move, or you die near instantly.

What about the Sentinals!?

What about them? I routinely see people claim Sentinel Regen is better designed, but I just could not disagree more. The love comes from Instant Regeneration alleviating the Effective Health issue with stacking absorb, and being a toggle. The issue is that, even scaled up to scrapper values, Instant Regeneration is significantly less hp/s than Instant Healing, and is taking the place of one of the strong click powers the melee version has that grants it spikes of very high durability. Additionally Instant Regeneration does not scale with increased max health, a big influence on Instant Healing's strength. Dull Pain's replacement with an auto power is all well and good given that you basically always perma Dull Pain anyways, but the much lower max hp increase makes it not worth it, and removes its use as a second heal click.

Lastly there's Second Wind... god i hate Second Wind. On the surface its great, a Dull Pain effect tied into your self rez to provide the player a choice, durability now, or a rez later. I am all about decision making in combat rather than a plain flow chart. However, its implementation is terrible. It increases Max HP proportional to current missing hp, which is also an interesting power idea, but when combined with a rez, is a false choice. See, in order to get a good amount of Max HP from Second Wind, enough to be worth the cooldown you need to be well below 50% health, which, means Instant Regeneration's Absorb bubble is already out of the picture and is just more hp/s. This puts you at high risk of being killed by a big hit, if you use Second Wind before you die, you likely will die anyways and be out your rez. If you wait, accept death, and use it to revive, yer back in the fight, at full HP, and with a 15 second invincibility to boot.

Thats not a choice, using Second Wind prior to death is a flat waste, made all the worse by the fact Instant Regeneration wont even benefit from the increased max hp, which means that while you might briefly have a higher hp pool, your Effective Regeneration has not changed significantly, so you are not appreciably more durable. At best your choice is between a self revive, and a small self heal that requires precision to even make use of.

Seriously, Sentinal Regeneration is a MESS, it has some really good ideas, but they do not come together into a cohesive set. It solves one problem with Regen, the Effective Health, only to undo its work by making every other part of the set weaker.

What's holding Regen back?

The system man! All seriousness, what holds regen back is largely the core systems of CoH. City of Heroes is built upon linear stat progression as opposed to most modern games using some form of logarithmic progression or stat comparison. 5% defense is 5% defense, it will always reduce the chance of you getting hit by 5%, most games would use a defense rating, which is compared to an enemy accuracy rating, and the degree of difference between would determine the chance to hit. As such the only ways to increase the danger of an enemy to a player is to increase their damage, increase their accuracy, increase their level, or give them debuff powers. Most of the time, this last one is used, and this is Regen's Achile's Heel.

More than Effective Health issues, Regen suffers from sub par defense, this is not something that's easy to resolve, and usually requires a primary power set with some kind of parry like power to raise defense. This defense issue isnt a problem when it comes to damage intake, most of the time atleast, but it is when it comes to debuffs. Most Regen builds have between 25% and 35% defense depending on type and build. Taking the best case here of 35% and ignore outliers like pure S/L builds that only farm council, that means, that compared to a defense capped character regen is three times as likely to be hit. You WILL get debuffed, and thats where things get nasty.

Regen is dependent on click powers for maximum durability, -recharge ruins this, so its important to build for Winter Origin enhancements. -End and -Recovery are mitigated some by your high end recovery from Quick Recovery and Moment of Glory, but you have no protection, and you need your end for your defensive powers. You have a modicum of -regeneration resistance, 25.95% to be exact, but sadly -regen comes in two flavors, tiny, -50%, and "so big your regen gets shut off even with resistance", -1,000%. -resistance will crash your Effective Regeneration and make your Effective Health problem worse, and because -resistance and -damage are resisted by resistance, and Regen typically cant get more than 50% resistances unless it focused on just one pair like S/L, you are disproportionately vulnerable. And lastly, your defense is already weak so -def cascades are all to easy to fall into.

This is why i say Ageless Radial on Regen all day every day, because this? This is the sets great weakness. Every armor set in the game has tools to either mitigate or outright ignore at least one, usual multiple of these effects. Toggle sets don't care about -recharge, and can skirt through on the bottom of their end bar. Defense sets of DDR. Resist sets shrug off -resist and -damage. And some sets have enough Effect Health that -regen just doesn't matter even if it stops all regeneration, they can and will kill everything before their hp bar is whittled down.

so...much...text...

In the end Regen isn't weak per say, its actually one of the toughest sets in the game... if played well. That sounds gate keepy but the fact of the matter is most armors have little to no skill floor, you toggle up and go for a ride, maybe have to manage one or two click powers. Regen must manage 3 and performs best with multiple due to the synergy of its mitigation type. The issue is the set is vulnerable to every non dps based way to undermine a character in the game. Damage Spikes, and Debuffs.

TL;DR
Regen isn't bad in the way people usually think, and its complicated as to why. Regen needs debuff resist, resistance, or absorb to deal with its various issues. Sentinal Regen is a mix of great ideas for powers slapped together and is actually terrible as a set. Numbers available upon request.

 

[Haijinx]

On 9/12/2021 at 1:36 AM, ihatethewind said:

No

 

QFT